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I don't want to detract from the feeling of good service - but did your dealer change the water pump?
On the PD engine, the water pump is driven by the cambelt and VAG's engine designers insanely positioned it on the tight side of the belt. As the wrap angle of the belt around the water pump pulley is significant, the loadings on its bearings are needlessly extremely high when a unit injector builds pressure.
I have seen a fair number of PD engines now and in my view, renewal of the water pump at each belt change is essential - preferably using a pattern part with a metal impeller. Failure of the water pump bearings almost always throws the cambelt resulting in extensive engine damage.
I have seen fully "dealer serviced" PD equipped cars suffer this fate as their policy appears to be one of fitting a belt kit (if you're lucky) and nothing else - not even new auxiliary belts.
The last water pump I saw lasted to 140k miles before the rollers came out of its bearings - the result was not pleasing to its owner.
659.
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No, they didn't fit a new water pump. I asked about this but they said they check the pump and only replace it if it looks dodgy (or words to that effect). If the dealer wanted to screw some more money out of me then recommending the pump replacement would enable them to do this, surely?
Anyway, I'm still happy with the experience.
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No, they didn't fit a new water pump. I asked about this but they said they check the pump and only replace it if it looks dodgy (or words to that effect). If the dealer wanted to screw some more money out of me then recommending the pump replacement would enable them to do this, surely?
Anyway, I'm still happy with the experience.
I did that with one of our Vauxhalls, which had a 40,000 mile change interval on the cambelt - the first time we changed the water pump as well but second time we thought the water pump looked fine so didn't replace it - but rued that day as 10,000 miles later the water pump failed, losing the belt which wrecked the engine.
Water pumps don't cost very much - there's virtually no extra labour to fit it if the cambelt is already being done - given the consequences on any engine where the water pump is driven by the cambelt, it's crazy and negligent not to do both together.
I wish you luck Pat, you're going to need every ounce of it.
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So, you're posting on the internet to congratulate a VW dealer for performing a simple service task and perform a recall? Really?
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So, you're posting on the internet to congratulate a VW dealer for performing a simple service task and perform a recall? Really?
Yes, due to the generally negative comments here re main dealers, especially VAG. I thought it might redress the balance. Silly me.
And, perhaps predicably, some of the replies have been of the 'doom and gloom' variety.
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I don' t think doom and gloom is quite correct you took a car for a service and a cam belt change they failed to change the very important water pump an item that should be changed an independant would have done so unless you specifically said not too but then they would not gaurantee the cam belt change.
Instead of congratulating the agent I would be very dubious about any work they carried out due to their failure to insist the pump is changed due to its importance and the low cost bearing in mind the engine is already stripped down. As far as I can see is they releaved you of hard earned money for a very substandard service.
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I have no wish to spead doom and gloom in the light of the original posting, but I consider it only fair to make available to Forum members the experience I have gained through working with these PD engines. They're all getting on a bit now, so any longer term impartial observations tend to have increasing validity.
The PD engine has unique features, one of which is a highly stressed camshaft drive - the unit injectors have to be pressurised to about 2000 bar (almost 30,000 PSI) and this involves very large forces in the drive. As posted above, the water pump is insanely, mounted on the tight side of the belt.
I am surprised and saddened that these revered (by some) dealers carry on making the same mistakes and seem to be incapable of realising that all designs have weaknesses. Far better customer service would be the result of addressing these weaknesss, as any decent Independent will do. A failure by a VAG dealer to do this hardly represents good service - so I can't agree with the original poster.
A water pump costs about £30 and adds 15 mins to the job - a no-brainer.
659.
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As with most "main dealers", the people don't know they're making mistakes.
First line you're dealing with is the pretty little chick behind the desk, who answers the phone, and types your name and car reg in to a computer. She was employed, not for her knowledge of whatever car brand, but for how well her ass looks in a short skirt, and how deep her cleavage is. Being able to imagine you're at Grand Canyon keeps those sales reps and their motors coming back.
Then there's the technicians who have their life ruled by times produced by a computer. They get a job card that says XD51JPR needs a timing belt, and it needs to be done in 2 work time units. They're not worried if the water pump is p***ing water like Niagara Falls, they just fit the belt and shove it out for the 17 year old apprentice to take up the road on it's test rally, and on to the next one.
Gone are the days when the mechanic or service desk folks were 30 years in the business, and been to all the training courses and knew the cars inside and out. Hell, half of the guys on the parts desks are clueless and don't know the difference between a oil filter and a spark plug.
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There is a very good reason for the negative comments about the main s******s. No redress is needed.
I asked my VW main s****** whether they replace the engine mount bolts when they drop it for a cambelt change, because these bolts are over-torqued at the factory. The answer? Thats right, no suprises there then. (BTW, Haynes says to always replace them)
The water pump failure is notorious, just google "VW plastic" and google auto completes the word "impeller" for you!
I changed my cambelt myself last year, I just can't work out why I didn't do the pump, must have been because I couldn't wait for it. Definitely have to fix that after I fix the broken gearbox (rivets).
PS. If, you wanted a bit of doom and gloom; the PD engines have faster wear on the camshaft bearings than the older TDi's did. The wear on the bearing drops the camshaft slightly over time and blocks the oil channel, further increasing wear - so I've heard. Then again, it'll be the mug (usually me) who buys the car when it's 10 years old who suffers.
All manufacturers and dealers nowadays seem only to care about the depth of our pockets unfortunately - I'd love to be proved wrong.
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Edited by KenC on 06/04/2012 at 14:33
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Hello ref your reply to this post
"renewal of the water pump at each belt change is essential preferably using a pattern part with a metal impeller."
Please can you tell me
a) why you recommend a pattern part with metal impeller
b) what type of impeller would the water pump have if supplied and fitted by a VW main dealer ?
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"renewal of the water pump at each belt change is essential preferably using a pattern part with a metal impeller."
Please can you tell me
a) why you recommend a pattern part with metal impeller
b) what type of impeller would the water pump have if supplied and fitted by a VW main dealer ?
Early PD engines had water pumps with plastic impellers that very commonly became detatched from their shafts offering little or no water flow causing overheating and in many cases head failures.
I think VAG no longer use plastic impellers but I may be wrong.
Using pattern parts, in my opinion, is a false economy. They can often be inferior parts that dont quite fit right or have poor materials. I recommend sticking to OEM parts, places like GSF, TPS etc supply OEM and genuine parts at low prices. Even some VAG dealers will compete on price, some can be found on Ebay.
Some pattern parts just dont work right and can lead to further damage (I'm thinking about Halfords thermostats and my old passat)
Edited by brum on 06/04/2012 at 15:06
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VAG do some quite extraordinary things in terms of design, one of which is to create a type of fault which is virtually unknown elsewhere in the motor industry. Motor factors and Independents make their living from this.
One example is their brake lamp switches - surely a simple enough design exercise to illuminate three red lamps when the brake pedal is pressed and to simultaneously inform the engine management system of this.
Despite several revisions of design, this component is still, in my view not fit for purpose. Trivial, perhaps but extremely annoying when your battery goes flat due to the lamps remaining on and disproportionately expensive to fix by their accredited dealer network.
The water pumps are a real masterstroke - a plastic impeller pushed onto a steel shaft. The failure mode is either the loosening of the impeller on the shaft which causes mysterious overheating symptoms (diesel engines don't generally require very much cooling unless worked hard, so the symptoms can be non-obvious) or the breaking up of the impeller.
A broken impeller can jam the pump and throw off the cambelt.
Until VAG created this evolutionary triumph, nobody else had a pump which failed in this way - seals and bearings yes (which of course VAG pumps also have) but never this. Pattern pumps are made in large numbers for this engine with metal impellers which avoids this problem - these are the ones I fit at each cambelt change.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 06/04/2012 at 23:04
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Hi 659FBE, Does the cambelt/waterpump issue also apply to the VAG 2.5 Tdi?
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Sadly a number of manufacturers went down the plastic impeller fitted to water pump route, Mercedes and Jaguar (V8s) circa ~1998 to name two - both reverted to metal as soon as the problems started rolling in! Luckily neither would cause engine failure in these cases assuming you notice your car over-heating! As the impeller usually spins uselessly on the shaft in these applications rather than actually breaking up jamming the pump.
IMHO as pointed out above, if the (cheap as chips) water pump wasn't changed during the belt service I'd be worried about the standard of the job, it is essential on these particular engines - even engines where a cambelt-driven water pump is on the lesser-tensioned side of the belt (as per some Vauxhalls), I'd still change it as a matter of course. Water pumps are cheap - you are already in there - it's madness to skip this insurance - which is as good value as you're going to get in the motoring world as far as preventative maintenance is concerned!
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VAG do some quite extraordinary things in terms of design, one of which is to create a type of fault which is virtually unknown elsewhere in the motor industry. Motor factors and Independents make their living from this.
One example is their brake lamp switches - surely a simple enough design exercise to illuminate three red lamps when the brake pedal is pressed and to simultaneously inform the engine management system of this.
Despite several revisions of design, this component is still, in my view not fit for purpose. Trivial, perhaps but extremely annoying when your battery goes flat due to the lamps remaining on and disproportionately expensive to fix by their accredited dealer network.
The water pumps are a real masterstroke - a plastic impeller pushed onto a steel shaft. The failure mode is either the loosening of the impeller on the shaft which causes mysterious overheating symptoms (diesel engines don't generally require very much cooling unless worked hard, so the symptoms can be non-obvious) or the breaking up of the impeller.
A broken impeller can jam the pump and throw off the cambelt.
Until VAG created this evolutionary triumph, nobody else had a pump which failed in this way - seals and bearings yes (which of course VAG pumps also have) but never this. Pattern pumps are made in large numbers for this engine with metal impellers which avoids this problem - these are the ones I fit at each cambelt change.
659.
Hello 659FBE, I would appreciate some particular advice in view of comments made in this thread. I have just checked my service records and it states that at nearly 80k miles the cambelt was replaced and a cambelt kit supplied and fitted. Does this mean the water pump was not changed too? My car, a Skoda Superb 1.9 Tdi 130 PD has done nearly 150k miles and is due a service and they will probably flag up a cambelt change. Should I now insist they change the water pump too as a seperate item? I must say that in 6 years my dealer has been great and I have a good relationship with the service manager and full confidence in there ability. I am surprised though that they would not recommend the change automatically in view of the comment here.The car is still excellent and going well, probably benefiting from regular attention and considerate driving. Your comment would be appreciated. Cheers and thank you. Concrete
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A water pump would be listed as a separate item on your invoice, it is not part of the cambelt kit , which would consist of your belt, rollers and tensioner.
I've also had this issue and was told that they would visually inspect the pump for weepage only. Doesn't help much with the impellor problem though.
You should absolutely have it changed next belt change, it's only a few pounds. Make sure you don't get over-charged for labour though! An extra 15 mins perhaps, plus new coolant.
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Concrete, I'm delighted to hear that your AWX Superb is still running well - as is mine. This is quite probably the very best diesel engine VAG have ever produced and I continue to be most impressed by its conversion efficiency - better than that of a coal fired power station.
Next time you take it for a hard run, feel the front of the bonnet when you come to a halt - it will be cold. This is a simple but irrefutable testament to its efficiency.
Water pump replacement does not seem to figure in the dealer's notion of a cambelt system overhaul to give lasting customer satisfaction. This is despite the fact that the pump is driven by the cambelt and in my view, has an inherent weakness in its construction. It also operates under mechanical loadings which could have been significantly reduced by an alternative design.
At 150k miles, you're on borrowed time - get the pump changed without fail.
659.
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Many years ago, I had a 1997 Vauxhall Omega with the BMW 2.5 tds engine.
That too had a plastic impeller which broke up and warped the long 6 cyl head.
Upon inspection, it looked as though the coolant had affected the plastic over the years, it was almost like crumbly brown wax with fibre inclusions.
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Thanks 659, I will INSIST they change the water pump too. Like you I do wonder at this engine and the efficiency to pull around such a big car and still average 50mpg+. Also if you wish to scoot along it is no slouch. Between 2500 and 3500 revs it really can fly when you need to. I realise that it is on borrowed time but I will be loath to see it go, especially as I claim my mileage and am now out of the company car scheme. However I thought the same about a previous Honda Accord, the 'borrowed' time lasted 17 years until we gave it away in good working order with 175k miles and the engine was like a sewing machine. Thanks again for your advice, I shall put it to good use. Cheers Concrete.
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