Any - Fuel prices.Budget

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Wed 21 Mar 2012 18:16
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jonny1

Very nice of the chancelor not to raise the cost of fuel with immidiate effect in his budget but I did notice that my local Esso garage had put price up by 2p per ltr overnight.Mmmm.

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Wed 21 Mar 2012 18:38
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

We already have a thread on Budget 2012, Avant will probably close this soon. Its worth pointing out the 3p rise was planned for August all along, the Chancellor hasnt been nice at all.

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Wed 21 Mar 2012 20:44
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - Collos25

The three pence in August is part of the fuel esculator brought in by Gordon Brown it is supposed to be green tax agreed by all member states of the EU the chancellor could have added any amount of duty in the budget so in this case he has not been nice but found the increases in tax from other sources.

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Wed 21 Mar 2012 20:52
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

Alistair Darling was the Chancellor who implimented these duty rises. Please get your facts straight before talking.

Green Tax doesnt wash because we already tax our fuel much more heavily than most EU member states so they need to be putting theirs up, we need to bring ours down.

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Wed 21 Mar 2012 21:39
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - balleballe

Do I detect a hint of hostility? :D lol

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 15:32
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - Collos25

I think you will find that Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were at the meeting of the EU that decided to bring in the fuel green tax called the esculator in the UK,Mr darling may or may not have introduced it to the house but it certainly was nothing to do with him.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 15:37
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - Collos25

The Fuel Price Escalator (FPE) was the practice of automatically increasing hydrocarbon oil duty (better known as 'fuel tax') in the United Kingdom ahead of inflation. The escalator was introduced as a measure to stem the increase in pollution from road transport and cut the need for new road building which was then a politically sensitive topic. The escalator also resulted in significant increases in revenue for The Treasury.

The fuel price escalator was introduced by the Conservative government in 1993 and set at an annual increase of 3% ahead of inflation, later rising to 5%. After gaining power in 1997, the rate of increase was raised by the Labour government to 6% per year. The last rise due to the escalator took place following the budget on 9 March 1999. [1] Tax increases above inflation have not ceased, however: the increase in fuel duty for 2009 was above inflation and the tax is planned to increase "on 1 April from 2010 to 2013 by 1 ppl above indexation in each year." [2]

The end to the escalator was announced on 9 November 2000, following the UK fuel protests, of which it was a contributory factor. When the escalator ended, fuel in the UK was the most expensive in Europe, with fuel tax representing over 75% of the retail price of fuel. In 1993 UK fuel had been amongst the cheapest in Europe [citation needed] .

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Wed 21 Mar 2012 22:04
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - Avant

Happy to leave both threads - not much to say really!

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 14:11
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - craig-pd130

All petrol stations round here (Macclesfield) seem to have put their prices up by 3p per litre too -- despite no increase in duty in the budget, the price of crude oil falling, the pound gaining against the dollar and OPEC promising to increase output to help deflect concerns over Iranian sabre rattling.

Taking the rise a bit, isn't it?

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 14:13
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

Petrol stations are becoming a joke. Theres a 9p difference between the 3 petrol stations within 2 miles of my house. Price of oil goes down and it takes months to see a 1p reduction, some scaremonger goes on the BBC and warns it'll rise and petrol stations stick 10p on it instantly.

Total joke.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 14:59
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - madf

, the price of crude oil falling,

You mean like Brent crude was $104 on 19 December 2011 and now $124 per barrel with the high being $128 on 2nd March? (for a few hours only)

Risen over 20%..in 3 months.. and fallen about 3% from its high. :-)

Hint: Oil prices are headed only one way in the medium term and it is not down.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 15:08
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

If the Government cant be bothered to help the country out then we need to find a way of getting that oil price back down to the 10-15 dollars a barrel it was in the 90s, to cancel out the several above inflationary rises in fuel tax. If that means putting something unpleasant in the Chinese and Indians water then so be it.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 17:15
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - madf

If the Government cant be bothered to help the country out then we need to find a way of getting that oil price back down to the 10-15 dollars a barrel it was in the 90s, to cancel out the several above inflationary rises in fuel tax. If that means putting something unpleasant in the Chinese and Indians water then so be it.

Like invade Iraq and bomb Libya.?

Great success that.

I suggest you read about oil capacity and demand and stop posting fantasy.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 18:01
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - unthrottled

I suggest you read about oil capacity and demand and stop posting fantasy.

With respect, the price of oil has only a small effect on the pump rice of the fuel. Taxation is the problem. The duty and the VAT add about 60p to the base price of the fuel.

So if excise duty was completely removed and the only taxation was VAT at the rate of 20% on the sale price then prices would be about 75p/litre for petrol and 82p/litre for diesel.

All the hogwash about Chinese demand and OPEC tightening supply is just a convenient smokescreen for governments.

If Michael O' Leary doesn't have to pay tax for his kerosene to ship planeloads of chavs to Benidorm or Guardian readers to Turkmenistan to stay in fairtrade yurts, I don't see why the rest of his should pay duty on our fuel either.

Edited by unthrottled on 22/03/2012 at 18:09

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 18:30
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - unthrottled

I think the problem would quickly resolve itself if the fuel sales receipts were broken down into the three components of fuel price, duty, and VAT on the duty.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 18:58
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - madf

The Government needs its taxes to pay for benefits NHS etc..

If no fuel taxes then increase VAT to 30%. Or make evryone pay for the NHS..and stop all state pensions now..

As for oil going to $30 per barrel, all new exploration would stop as uneconomic..

People are not exploring in the Falklands or Brazil off shore or the Arctic to produce at under $50 per barrel.. Saudi Arabia's biggest field which produces more than 30% of their outyput - or about 5% of world output is about 50 years old..

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 19:59
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - unthrottled

If no fuel taxes then increase VAT to 30%. Or make evryone pay for the NHS..and stop all state pensions now..

Please don't be patronising. I'm not financially illiterate.

There are lots of undertaxed assets-

property being the obvious one

Aviation fuel being another.

Self employed middlemen selling c**p on ebay (if they bother to pay any tax at all) can claim all sorts of tax relief not available to the unfortunate souls on PAYE.

Any sensible person understands that governments must raise taxes. It is the apparently arbitrary and unequal distribution of taxes that rankle, rather the principle of taxation itself.

edit: just self censoring!

Edited by unthrottled on 22/03/2012 at 19:59

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 15:24
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - craig-pd130



Risen over 20%..in 3 months.. and fallen about 3% from its high. :-)

that's what I mean -- they've fallen from their high, likely to continue easing down in the coming months after OPEC's recent announcement AND the pound is stronger against the dollar.

I'm only referring to this week's sudden increase of 3p per litre, which bears no relation to the recent trends.

Edited by craig-pd130 on 22/03/2012 at 15:25

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 22:10
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

With respect, the price of oil has only a small effect on the pump rice of the fuel. Taxation is the problem. The duty and the VAT add about 60p to the base price of the fuel.

Exactly. Oil prices, demand, supply, middle east etc are all currently irrelevent when talking about petrol prices in the UK. Most of the price is tax. Not the Chinese, not the Iranians, not the exchange rate, not supply, not demand and not anything else. Its tax.

I think the problem would quickly resolve itself if the fuel sales receipts were broken down into the three components of fuel price, duty, and VAT on the duty.

I think we looked at that before but the EU wouldn't allow it. Heaven forbid the public have easy access to facts.

The Government needs its taxes to pay for benefits NHS etc..

And massive tax giveaways to the richest in society. I'm fed up of this argument, every time someone complains about fuel tax the default response is 'Government needs money' which on its own isnt good enough.

Fuel Duty brings in £27billion, a lot of money for sure but its still only 5% of the Treasuries revenue so its not as simple as fuel-duty-or-no-NHS.

There are lots of undertaxed assets-

property being the obvious one

Aviation fuel being another.

Absolutely. I was disappointed that the Mansion Tax or some variation didn't come in, and the increase in Stamp Duty is pathetic. There's a lot more taxation to be wrung out of property.

Aviation Fuel is the one which annoys me. No Tax, no VAT, using billions of gallons to transport a small amount of people around where as the low paid worker with a normal car pays a disgracefully disproportionate sum in tax. Its about time we taxed Aviation Fuel as high as humanly possible.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 22:26
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - balleballe

And massive tax giveaways to the richest in society. I'm fed up of this argument, every time someone complains about fuel tax the default response is 'Government needs money' which on its own isnt good enough.

Doesn't change the fact it still needs money. The gov't have decided to have 'tax giveaways' as an incentive for the rich to actually declare their wage/income. It's not going to work, in my opinion; but I can see the theory.

Personally I dont see why the rich should be taxed much more than someone earning lets say...70k. Why should they pay the penalty for being successful?

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 22:54
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

Doesn't change the fact it still needs money. The gov't have decided to have 'tax giveaways' as an incentive for the rich to actually declare their wage/income. It's not going to work, in my opinion; but I can see the theory.

Of course it wont work and the theory is pathetic. They werent paying what they shouldve done so we'll just scrap the rate? If nobody paid council tax would the Chancellor scrap that as well? Osborne is in the rich's pockets and always has been. If you want the rich to pay their taxes then aggressively hammer them to make sure they do, dont give them a tax break because you cant be bothered.

Personally I dont see why the rich should be taxed much more than someone earning lets say...70k. Why should they pay the penalty for being successful?

Where did you get that? US Republican Weekly?

Its called progressive taxation and its the best way of doing it. Get the rich to pay the most because they can afford it. You'll never deter rich people from being rich so theres no harm in a big tax rate for them. There's no other way to raise the revenue the Treasury needs, unless you feel low earners should pay the penalty for not being lucky enough to earn millions?

Edited by jamie745 on 22/03/2012 at 22:54

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:03
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - unthrottled

@ballebelle

I don't have any problem with success.

I'm glad that the 50p tax has gone. The problem isn't whether the top rate of tax is 40p or 50p, it's that most of the big earners aren't on PAYE and don't pay either rate!

But how do you 'earn' £million+ a year? You can't 'do' anything to make big money. The only way to make big money is to employ people for less than they're worth and keep the rest. There are benefits to the emplyee of course, but it does annoy me when multi millionaires claim to be entirely 'self-made' because it isn't true. Believing in the principle of progressive taxation doesn't make you a socialist!

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:07
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

There's no such thing as a self made millionaire. Like all parts of life, other people are involved along the way and luck plays a big part. As well as economical engineering, economies are set up to prevent everybody from becoming a millionaire, it'd be like Zimbabwe if we were.

Believing in the principle of progressive taxation doesn't make you a socialist!

Indeed. Its hardly new. In fact hasn't it been around since Lincoln's time in the 1800s?

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:09
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - balleballe

@ballebelle

I don't have any problem with success.

I'm glad that the 50p tax has gone. The problem isn't whether the top rate of tax is 40p or 50p, it's that most of the big earners aren't on PAYE and don't pay either rate!

But how do you 'earn' £million+ a year? You can't 'do' anything to make big money. The only way to make big money is to employ people for less than they're worth and keep the rest. There are benefits to the emplyee of course, but it does annoy me when multi millionaires claim to be entirely 'self-made' because it isn't true. Believing in the principle of progressive taxation doesn't make you a socialist!

I agree - these are the type of people the gov't should crack down on; not the ones that declare their earnings.

Chances are they are being allowed to 'slip' through the net for some reason or another - perhaps they are 'friends' with the Rothchild's?

There is no such thing as a self made millionaire in my opinion - and that does indeed annoy me too

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:05
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - balleballe

So you should tax them because they can afford to pay it? Seriously?

I'm not saying they should not pay taxes - a 45% tax on anyone should be more than enough, in my opinion.

No - low earners have a hard enough time as it is with the current economic climate.

It's clearly a difficult decision to make as the monry has to come from somewhere; ideally they need to reduce outgoings - basic accounting.

There's plenty of ways they can do that; but it will always upset a 'group' of some type. They cannot please everyone all of the time. Your view on 'fair' will most likely differ from mine; everyone has their own view

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:08
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

So you should tax them because they can afford to pay it? Seriously?

Charging people who cant afford it will hardly result in a productive yield will it?

I'm not saying they should not pay taxes - a 45% tax on anyone should be more than enough, in my opinion.

I think they should think themselves lucky with 50%. It was 86% in the 1970s.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:11
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - balleballe

So you should tax them because they can afford to pay it? Seriously?

Charging people who cant afford it will hardly result in a productive yield will it?

I'm not saying they should not pay taxes - a 45% tax on anyone should be more than enough, in my opinion.

I think they should think themselves lucky with 50%. It was 86% in the 1970s.

Hence why the people earning less are on a lower tax band

Like I said; our opinions on 'fair' will differ

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:13
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

The Treasury has an amount of money it needs to raise, they'll have more luck getting it out of rich people who can afford it rather than poor people who cant. After all, you cant take what somebody hasn't got can you?

I dont know what you mean by 'fair' you cannot say we differ if you wont even say what your version is.

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:20
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - balleballe

My version of fair does not involve taxing the 'rich' (who declare their income) 50%, yours seems to

The tax system is based on income - so if you are earning 40k odd - you can afford the tax rate

If you are earning 20k odd - you an afford the tax rate

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Thu 22 Mar 2012 23:38
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

Its only 50% on what they earn over £150,000. Which is a salary most of us will never have and they'd still take home £98,000. So they cant complain.

I'd have kept the 50% tax rate, brought in a better version of the mansion tax, put £1 a litre tax on Aviation Fuel + 20% VAT and hopefully been able to take those on the minimum wage out of tax all together.

But hey, maybe I'm just too nice.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 14:00
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - Ethan Edwards

Its only 50% on what they earn over £150,000. Which is a salary most of us will never have and they'd still take home £98,000. So they cant complain.

Oh yes they can. With NI they take home less than half of what the earn. It's an obscene level of state theft that makes people go out of their way to avoid paying ANY tax. Great for tax accountant employment figures though. HMG and therefore us would all be the loser so maybe not so good.

The Mansion tax - daft idea. A one bed flat in better parts of London would be paying it but a huge house oop North not paying it. Let's all move to Wallsall then. Nah!

Tax Aviation fuel. Planes are mobile. They arrive fuller, don't buy here and top up abroad. Compromise safety, put up ticket prices for peasants like us and put the UK avgas sector out of business. Smooth move Jamie.

Why not just have HMG spend a helluva lot less. Cut out the waste inefficiency and too many people on the public payroll. The MOD could be run with 20,000 fewer people.

If you have less income you spend less..simples! ..unless your Labour in which case you borrow tons then shove off leaving others to clear up your cr4p while tutting loudly.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 13:01
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - craig-pd130

I see that today, pump prices have fallen back to their pre-budget level round here. The extra 3p added on over the past couple of days must have been a cynical short-term move, made in the hope that punters would blame the budget.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 13:42
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - barney100
There is nothing the general public can do about the price of fuel. Oil producers want their profit, Hmg wants it's taxes and we need the fuel to go about our business. If we don't buy the petrol they will sell it to China or the like, I'm worried more for the young families on a tight budget than I am for me, oldies like me can use the bus pass round town.
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Fri 23 Mar 2012 14:04
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - diddy1234

just face it.

there is nothing the likes of us can do.

THe fuel protests of 2000 ish only brought the cost of fuel down for a short time before the inevitable climb upwards started.

If fuel was £2 per litre, we would still pay it as we have to go to work.

I do wonder though, at which price level will civil unrest start.

There obviously would be a price level where there is no point owning car / going to work.

£5 per litre ?

And before you say how silly that is, in the past 5 years the price of fuel has gone up over 50% (so I read),

If that trend continues then £5 per litre will certanly be on the cards.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 15:38
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

Oh yes they can. With NI they take home less than half of what the earn. It's an obscene level of state theft that makes people go out of their way to avoid paying ANY tax. Great for tax accountant employment figures though.

Why should we reward tax evaders with lower tax rates? If everybody stopped paying council tax would the Chancellor go 'well lets scrap it then, for the good of the economy.' I very much doubt it. Also please get your figures right. Somebody on £200,000 paying the 50p rate would take home £114,000 a year, more than 5 times the average pre-tax salary so they have no right to complain about anything.

The Mansion tax - daft idea. A one bed flat in better parts of London would be paying it but a huge house oop North not paying it. Let's all move to Wallsall then. Nah!

The Mansion Tax would have to be relative to average prices in that area, for example if you lived in a house worth 5 times the regional average then you'd have to pay it. To do it on a flat £2million was a daft idea I agree, but the principle is very sound.

Tax Aviation fuel. Planes are mobile. They arrive fuller, don't buy here and top up abroad. Compromise safety, put up ticket prices for peasants like us and put the UK avgas sector out of business. Smooth move Jamie.

How would paying a reasonable price for fuel compromise safety? Do you believe the current petrol prices compromises safety on the ground? We'd need to work it so as it doesnt matter where the plane fills up from, we need to do it so as UK based airlines pay a flat rate at the start of every financial year to cover their tax liability for the fuel they will use.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 16:11
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - diddy1234

Slightly related to aviation fuel tax, I did read a few weeks ago that a New Zealand registered company based at bournemouth airport is refulling the Iranian national air fleet when they come to heathrow airport.

I think its a weekly flight from Tehran to Heathrow.

When the aircraft fly's back to Tehran it does a smal detour to Bournemouth first to refuel.

Unfortunatley I do not have any links handy and I am not sure what price they are paying.

But its one way around the sanctions placed on Iran.

Now if someone could do a similar thing for the motorist at the forecourt, we could pay Arabian oil prices at one garage in the UK.

Problem solved and we would hit the government coffers where it hurts.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 16:22
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - Ethan Edwards

take home £114,000 a year, more than 5 times the average pre-tax salary so they have no right to complain about anything

I disagree if I am worth my wage and I earn a shedload thats my good fortune. What you should be arguing for is a flat tax. Everybody pays the same percentage. Otherwise you invite me (hypothetically) to do a Ken Livingstone. HMRC are never going to be as smart as people who are employed to legally avoid tax. The more unfairly it is perceived the more evasion the rich will do. Your tax take will fall sharply. Been proven Jamie.

Mansion tax - so now it's variable is it? Tax should be fair, certain and apply to all equally...which this idea fails to do. Daft idea. All you do is invite people to find ways around it. We have council tax for that. Just increase the number of bandings to say a couple of hundred. Even so posession of a huge house does not make you cash rich. Just in the UK a mug. Or is that a target for HMRC muggers....

Avgas. Planes will take off with near empty tanks to avoid paying the tax. Plus you really want to screw even MORE money out of Wayne and Waynetta going to Alicante whilst allowing the Polly Toynbees of this country off really easily? Very socialist not!

Avgas isn't comparable to Petrol prices (vis a vis saftey) as very few flying cars about.

Oh it's just the UK airlines you want to make grossly uncompetitve eh? So five minutes after your tax they re domicile to Bermuda. UK's loss is vast on that one.

I actually work for a UK company that has already domiciled abroad. Start of the avalanche if you push tax too far Jamie. People / Businesses with money are mobile it's a global economy. Better to encourage people to earn than to punish them for earning. Otherwise they become multi generational Benefit monkeys and everybody loses.

Cut the public spending thats the way. Live within your means Britain.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 23/03/2012 at 16:24

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 16:50
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - unthrottled

avgas. Planes will take off with near empty tanks to avoid paying the tax.

Oh, come off it. The CAA could easily impose minimum fuel reserves (if they don't already) since each flight must be logged prior to take off. Occasional random dipping of tanks enforced by heavy fines.

Plus you really want to screw even MORE money out of Wayne and Waynetta going to Alicante

If Wayne and Waynetta were given the choice of a paying more for their flights in return for for paying less for the weekly fuel up of their Ford fiesta I think they would rather have cheaper petrol.

There's supposed to be a move towards tax transparency. Printing the tax breakdown on petrol receipts would harden public attitudes and dispel the myth of 'profiteering' oil companies.

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Fri 23 Mar 2012 19:07
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

I disagree if I am worth my wage and I earn a shedload thats my good fortune. What you should be arguing for is a flat tax.

Theres always fortune involved somewhere for people who earn that kind of money. And a flat tax is a non argument because it'd harm the lowest paid and fail to meet the Treasuries requirements for revenue. Progressive taxation is a couple of centuries old and plenty of people have become very rich in that time, so the taxation principle isnt a problem. Even America has progressive taxation, home of the anti-Government right wing aggressive businessman.

Otherwise you invite me (hypothetically) to do a Ken Livingstone. HMRC are never going to be as smart as people who are employed to legally avoid tax.

That needs to change by making the system more simple. Why should we base our tax rates on whether rich people threaten to break the law or not? Even if it does encourage you to try and avoid it, thats you threatening to break the law, the last time i looked the UK Government didnt base its policies on threats of illegal behaviour from the public.

Avgas. Planes will take off with near empty tanks to avoid paying the tax.

Oh what a load of rubbish. There are probably already laws against that. Force them to pay the tax in a lump sum at the start of the financial year. Work out the maximum amount of fuel they use over a year and tax them accordingly per litre, if they end up using less then give them a rebate and a gold star. Also impose multi-million pound fines for under-filling tanks.

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Sat 24 Mar 2012 08:46
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - PatrickO

The cost of air travel is ridiculously low. I think they should put higher tax and vat on aviation fuel. Air travel is a luxury.

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Sat 24 Mar 2012 16:28
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - madf

Force them to pay the tax in a lump sum at the start of the financial year

I am sorry: such a proposal is unworkable and not rooted in any commerical reality.

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Sat 24 Mar 2012 16:31
Any - Fuel prices.Budget - jamie745

It's perfectly workable. Pay the tax or we ground your planes. Very simple. Oil companies pay the fuel duty in a lump sum when they get the fuel in, write a cheque to the Treasury and sell us the fuel. Similar principle.

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