Private Cash for Public Roads

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
View Threaded
Mon 19 Mar 2012 23:45
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

David Cameron has called for an "urgent" increase in private investment to improve England's road network.

He said tolls for new roads were one option, alongside attracting more money from pension funds and other investors.

Work was also needed to relieve gridlock by widening "pinch points" and allowing traffic to use motorway hard shoulders, the prime minister said.

But Labour said it would be "wrong" to "load extra costs on ordinary families" to pay for improvements to roads.

In a speech on infrastructure, the prime minister said there was an urgent need to repair its "decades-long degradation" and to "build for the future with as much confidence and ambition as the Victorians once did".

He argued it was clear there was not enough capacity on the roads in busy areas. "There's nothing green about a traffic jam - and gridlock holds the economy back," he said.

Part of the solution was to move more people and goods onto the rail network, Mr Cameron said, "but also to widen pinch points, add lanes to motorways by using the hard shoulder to increase capacity and dual overcrowded A-roads".

But the prime minister said "innovative approaches" were needed to finance road improvements at a time of tight government finances.

"Road tolling is one option - but we are only considering this for new, not existing, capacity. For example, we're looking at how improvements to the A14 could be part-funded through tolling.

"But we now need to be more ambitious. Why is it that other infrastructure - for example water - is funded by private sector capital through privately owned, independently regulated, utilities... but roads in Britain call on the public finances for funding?

"We need to look urgently at the options for getting large-scale private investment into the national roads network, from sovereign wealth funds, pension funds, and other investors."

Mr Cameron also said: "To put it crudely, we've become good in Britain at sweating old assets. But if you do that for too long, there's a price to pay." He promised to move "from a tactical, piecemeal 'make-do-and-mend' mindset to a strategic, comprehensive, systematic vision". Mr Cameron claimed that congestion on roads costs the UK economy £7bn a year. A feasibility study looking at "new ownership and financing models" for roads will be carried out by the Treasury and Department of Transport, to report by the autumn.

Labour leader Ed Miliband: "People are struggling to make ends meet"

Alasdair Reisner, from the Civil Engineering Contractors' Association, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that one option was a system of "shadow tolls", whereby the motorist does not pay the cost but private firms are paid by the government depending on the amount of traffic using a road.

Labour leader Ed Miliband said: "We will look at the detail of any scheme but I give the prime minister this warning: people are really hard-pressed; people are struggling to make ends meet.

"I think loading extra costs on ordinary families for using our roads would be the wrong thing to do at this time. It would be wrong for them; it would be wrong for the economy.

"If they want to get the economy moving they should be investing in our infrastructure in order to actually help us build up to the future and get economic growth going."

John Cridland, director-general of the CBI employers' group, said: "Congestion on our roads costs the UK economy up to £8bn a year, so the prime minister's ambition to get much-needed private investment into the strategic network could not have come at a better time."

Edmund King, president of the AA, agreed that investment was needed in roads, but added: "We need to be careful about how we go about this."

On the prime minister's comparison between the water industry and the road network, he said: "Many consumers - drivers - will raise their eyebrows at that. In the water industry we saw big companies make big profits initially, at the same time as water and sewage costs went up by 42% and 36%."

Stephen Glaister, director of the RAC Foundation, said: "We should cautiously welcome the prospect of private sector involvement. There are just not enough public resources to provide the capacity we need and this offers the chance to make long-term plans for a utility every bit as important as things like water, power, electricity and the railways."

But Friends of the Earth's head of campaigns Andrew Pendleton said: "Building and widening roads to tackle congestion is a dead-end policy that will simply lead to more traffic, more pollution - and even more gridlocked roads.

"The prime minister should be promoting alternatives to driving such as affordable buses and trains - and reduce our transport system's reliance on expensive overseas oil."

______________________________________________________________

Source: BBC News, although you probably guessed that due to the obligatory unjustified unqualified tree hugger section tacked on the end of the article in the interests of 'balance.'

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 00:31
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

Its difficult to form opinion on this due to the Government's tendancy to announce rhetoric beforeany concrete policy, its hard to scrutinise something which doesn't exist. However this gives us a rough idea on where Cameron is going with this and it doesnt look brilliant.

The first problem is principle, we've already paid for these roads about 7548965 times over and the British people do not support tolls. The M6 is a financial white elephant, backers lost money and it still only carries around 30% of the traffic it was built for because people dont use it.

The second problem is the public view privatisation as an expletive. The recent NHS related fury confirms that. Mentioning water, electricity and railways is shaky ground as none of them have been miraculously transformed by privatisation. Convincing the ordinary person that privatisation has made those services better for them is a hard sell.

The third problem (the big one) is convincing the private sector to go for it in the first place. If i was advising any of these companies in regards to part-funding toll roads i'd tell them to run for the hills, they'd never see their money back, the M6 Toll proves it doesnt work because people wouldn't use it. Cameron harped on about the Victorians but all sorts of people built roads then because they knew they could profit from it, is that true now?

Its hard to like much of what anybody is saying on this subject, Ed Miliband is right when he says people are really hard-pressed; people are struggling to make ends meet I think loading extra costs on ordinary families for using our roads would be the wrong thing to do at this time. It would be wrong for them; it would be wrong for the economy. but the fact his Government proposed road pricing, constantly rejected calls for updated road inferstructure and attacked ordinary working people through insane taxation makes him hard to take seriously.

We've been saying for years the roads are out of date, our motorway network lags horrifically behind well developed European rivals (specifically Germany) and for decades Government has ignored the issue in a country which relies on road transport, particularly for its goods. We always knew this would blow up one day and become a major problem, i just find it hilarious that it took this long and that Cameron is acting as though its only just become obvious.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 06:14
Private Cash for Public Roads - Armitage Shanks {p}

SFAIK Cameron has said that existing roads will not be subject tolls but who knows how long that position may last? Strictly speakng I think your Thread Titile should be "Private Cash for Private Roads"! If they are built by private eneterprise and tolls are charged for using them they will be private roads used by the public, for a fee. >:)

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 09:18
Private Cash for Public Roads - barney100
Roads in a state, we pay millions in road tax and it goes who knows where, now not only does hmg want our cash but private companies will get it too. For motorist read mug.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 10:20
Private Cash for Public Roads - Roly93

To be honest I haven't read all of the opening post as I understand the scenario involved.

All I would say is, if we can't sort out the roads now will billions in tax going into the pot, how is a private outsourcing company going to do it considering that they will need to pull a fat profit on top ???

This is the elephant in the room when it comes to the outsourcing of major government activities such as the NHS etc.

I am a businessman, and I think outsourcing has its place in the commercial world where a company may not want to commit to certain infrastructure and human resources for occasional use, but for the road or rail network WHY ?????????

Its just another conservative way of giving the party supporters more wealth and possibly as a side-effect creating some lower paid jobs.

Edited by Roly93 on 20/03/2012 at 10:21

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 10:38
Private Cash for Public Roads - Hamsafar

This is a perfect illustration of the fact that the politicians are mere yellow, red and blue puppets of the banking family elite.

tinyurl.com/3929d9r

"Wednesday, May 26, 2010

The Rothschild banking family is pushing for the privatization of the UK’s motorway network that would force Brits, who already pay road tax, to enrich the coffers of private corporations intimately tied in with the Rothschilds by means of road tolls and pay-by-mile schemes enforced with spy cameras."

Remember how Lord Mandelsohn was exposed having junkets with the Rothschilds where he was buttered up for this before losing the election?

Edited by Hamsafar on 20/03/2012 at 10:39

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 22:55
Private Cash for Public Roads - balleballe

This is a perfect illustration of the fact that the politicians are mere yellow, red and blue puppets of the banking family elite.

tinyurl.com/3929d9r

"Wednesday, May 26, 2010

The Rothschild banking family is pushing for the privatization of the UK’s motorway network that would force Brits, who already pay road tax, to enrich the coffers of private corporations intimately tied in with the Rothschilds by means of road tolls and pay-by-mile schemes enforced with spy cameras."

Remember how Lord Mandelsohn was exposed having junkets with the Rothschilds where he was buttered up for this before losing the election?

Well considering they control the 'global' economy; i'm not shocked.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 10:40
Private Cash for Public Roads - Sulphur Man

In this plan there is a clear line item that a chunk of funding for the new roads "could come from the 'VED pot'.

In other words, does this finally clear up the whole 'who does/doesnt pay road tax' mystery? It's not local government after all, it's all those who pay VED on their vehicles.

So the cyclists are wrong.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 12:54
Private Cash for Public Roads - RicardoB

It is rather ironic to read and hear the Labour lot now defending the motorist!

They had plenty of years, time and, er, money - from the motorists et al - to do something about the roads.

They did some work though - bus lanes on the M4 and elsewhere, fixation of forcing people to use public transport and making motorists feel like (and at times be treated like) criminals.

But heyho, I won't go on, this is a friendly motoring site!

Now, where's me Telegraph?!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 15:00
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

In other words, does this finally clear up the whole 'who does/doesnt pay road tax' mystery? It's not local government after all, it's all those who pay VED on their vehicles.

So the cyclists are wrong.

I'm glad somebody else has picked that up, it has been said companies could receive a share of 'the tax disc money.' It proves at last you cannot rename a tax, put it up time and time again yet tell the payees it doesnt exist. We've heard for years about how council tax supposedly entitles you to drive on the road (not sure a police officer would agree) yet if the Government publically say the tax disc money will be diverted specifically to pay for roads then we can finally put that argument to bed and call it road tax without militant cyclists arguing. Our Government clearly feel right now that the tax disc money is for roads or they wouldn't have said it, so thank god that boring argument is over and it will no longer consume bandwith on the internet in such a pointless manner again.

All I would say is, if we can't sort out the roads now will billions in tax going into the pot, how is a private outsourcing company going to do it considering that they will need to pull a fat profit on top ???

Fair point. Cameron is relying far too much on the private sector to bail out his Chancellor's failing economic plans. He feels the solution to everything is to 'liberate the private sector' which is code for 'get them to pay for stuff we dont want to' but it wont work. He seems to forget the primary motivation to a private company is profit, why would they waste time doing unprofitable things? He's tried to convince big companies to provide work experience for zero incentive and companies have only seen their reputations take a battering in the press as a result, so they're pulling out of the scheme. Even Tesco dont want bad press if they're not even making a penny out of it.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 17:16
Private Cash for Public Roads - Collos25

You should add the words "in my opinion" not everybody agrees with what you say or Dodgy David for that matter .The infrastructure in the UK is miles behind mainland europe but how you rectify that is open for debate just what DC is doing.Should read the book "Global warming and other b******s" which delves quite deeply into government expenditure and other related subjects its a good read and quite enlightening you will perhaps learn something.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 17:31
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

Is there any chance of you ever posting anything without patronising me? I'm so sick of every single Collos post being a patronising offensive rant against me, never anybody else, just me. Why me? I wouldnt mind if you did it to everyone else as well then we'd know you're just a Troll, 13 year old kid in his bedroom with no friends.

Avant when are you going to sort this idiot out?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 22:44
Private Cash for Public Roads - Collos25

Is there any chance of you posting a mail instead of an epic and really understand what your talking about because at the moment you are acting like a small child who cannot have his own way.

The book by the way is extremely good reading perhaps thats why its a best seller.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 18:05
Private Cash for Public Roads - Marc4Six

You should add the words "in my opinion" not everybody agrees with what you say or Dodgy David for that matter.

Or not :-)

http://tinyurl.com/785mglr

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 18:17
Private Cash for Public Roads - Roly93

The infrastructure in the UK is miles behind mainland europe but how you rectify that is open for debate just what DC is doing.

So I take it you won't complain when its costing you £100 per 1000 motorway miles you do plus of course your road tax ??

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 19:30
Private Cash for Public Roads - Bromptonaut

The cyclists, militant or not, are right. As of today the motorways and a reducing handful of trunk roads are directly funded by central gov through the Highways Agency. The rest are built and maintained by councils funded out of their central grant and council tax.

The tax disc only pays for the roads if there's a direct link between the sums collected and what's spent - a hypothecated tax. That link was broken when Churchill was Chancellor, long before WW2 .

The Treasury don't like hypothecated taxes and politicians have good reason to tread wary.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 20/03/2012 at 19:32

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 23:49
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

The cyclists, militant or not, are right.

No they're not. We've been over this hundreds of times.

The rest are built and maintained by councils funded out of their central grant and council tax.

Or not, as is so often the case.

The tax disc only pays for the roads if there's a direct link between the sums collected and what's spent - a hypothecated tax.

Semantics. I'm interested in realistic fact. Everything pays for everything, lets not pretend the tax disc money doesnt pay for something somewhere.

That link was broken when Churchill was Chancellor, long before WW2 .

I said i didnt want to see bandwidth wasted with this pathetic oft-recycled line about Churchill and his re-naming of tax. He didn't break any link, all he did was rename a tax, put it up and then tell everybody it doesnt exist. Right out of the Gordon Brown handbook. If he broke the link its in technicalities only rather than in practice, if he wanted to break that link he should've abolished the tax entirely, not just rename it.

The Treasury don't like hypothecated taxes

Incorrect again. The treasury dont like to be seen to like hypothecated taxes, yet every day they tell us 'to cut so and so we need to make it back up from so and so' suggesting that simplified on the Chancellor's table, tax comes from one place and goes into somewhere else. Lets not pretend thats not how it works. We get told smokers dont really aid the Governments budget because all the duty goes into the NHS, therefore suggesting tobacco duty is set aside for health spending. You cant have it both ways.

My point is you cannot rename a tax, increase it and tell its payees believe it doesnt exist. The bleaters come out with pathetic arguments like how council tax entitles you to use the road, which must mean i was ripped off £460 the last time i taxed the car and my council tax receipt stuck to the windscreen should do. We all know its road tax, every motoring website (including this one) says its road tax, even some pages on .gov call it road tax, every car advert calls it road tax and if you dont pay it you soon get into trouble so i think we can safely say it exists.

If you want to end this argument, the entire tax needs to go, not just be renamed. Thats my point.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 22 Mar 2012 11:22
Private Cash for Public Roads - Bromptonaut

Jamie,

The tax disc originally went to a road fund. From the twenties on government raided the road fund in aid of other spending. By the end of the decade Churchill had abolisged the road fund and the tax disc money went in the same pot as everything else. If I trace back a quid spent on the road it might have come from anywhere - drink tobacco, VAT on Starbucks Coffee - whatever.

If there's a line in the recent statements about a share of the VED money than somebody's making new policy on the hoof.

If you want to beleive different go on kidding yourself. The moon is made of green cheese too!!

And of course there are lots of newer (and much older) cars that pay no VED.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 22/03/2012 at 11:25

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 22 Mar 2012 14:05
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

I said I didnt want to hear the same tired boring argument about Churchill which has been wasting valuable internet space for years. I've said this twice now and you keep coming out with it. Let me spell it out - nobody cares and its not relevent.

The fact is if Gordon Brown had used that tactic (renaming a tax, increasing it and pretending it doesnt exist) you'd never take it seriously. So dont let Churchill get away with it either. I said i'm not interested in your technicalities.

f there's a line in the recent statements about a share of the VED money than somebody's making new policy on the hoof.

Chief Secretary to the Treasury on the news last night referred to it as road tax on 7 occasions in one interview. There's a very good reason for this, if she went on there and said Vehicle Excise Duty then 99% of the population wouldnt have half a clue what she was on about. This is why motoring websites (including this one) call it road tax, the HJ site has a headline 'changes to road tax system' because if it said 'changes to VED system' it'd get less hits on Google because nobody types VED into Google.

They've done studies into this you know, Which magazine got bombarded by militant cyclists with boring lives who had the time to write in to complain they call it Road Tax and Which pointed out their research shows the term road tax gets typed into google 100 times more often than VED, so they use the term everybody knows to make their page easy to find. Whats wrong with that? If it means drivers get a 'I pay for the roads' mentality then thats Churchill's fault for not abolishing the tax entirely.

So you have to accept that if Churchill intended to change the publics mentality about who pays for the roads 70 years ago, and 70 years on he has failed to do that then he obviously didnt do a very good job.

So stop trying to 'educate' people and support the abolishment of the tax entirely if you really want this argument to go away.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 22 Mar 2012 20:44
Private Cash for Public Roads - Bromptonaut

Jamie,

When you accuse others of wasting bandwith irony is finally dead!!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 23 Mar 2012 11:35
Private Cash for Public Roads - Bromptonaut

Another cyclists viewpoint to keep Jamie's blood pressure on track.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2012/mar/19/privatising-roads-tax-motorists-cyclists

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 23 Mar 2012 15:40
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

I'm not even going to click on anything linking to the Guardian.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 20 Mar 2012 23:45
Private Cash for Public Roads - Avant

This thread started intelligently, then plumbed the depths and has now recovered. There's nothing wrong with expressing strong views, but don't insult each other.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 21 Mar 2012 06:34
Private Cash for Public Roads - oldroverboy

This thread started intelligently, then plumbed the depths and has now recovered. There's nothing wrong with expressing strong views, but don't insult each other.

Handbags at 3 paces collos and jamie, Get ready at the count of three,

I do notice that jamie is sometimes a bit sensitive, but collos please be calm, he does have valid points quite often even if they could be abbreviated somewhat. Humour is fine, courtesy is finer...

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 21 Mar 2012 10:33
Private Cash for Public Roads - RicardoB

As that great insurance salesman might say, "Calm down dears, it's a discussion forum."

Heyho.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 22 Mar 2012 13:07
Private Cash for Public Roads - Sofa Spud

Privately funded roads will just lead to more toll motorways like the M6(toll) - in other words roads built to by-pass congested sections of existing motorways.

Do we really want or need such roads?

Edited by Sofa Spud on 22/03/2012 at 13:08

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 23 Mar 2012 06:24
Private Cash for Public Roads - Armitage Shanks {p}

Er Yes! We need more road capacity for the expected increase in traffic and the Government can't/won't meet all the cost.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 23 Mar 2012 17:19
Private Cash for Public Roads - Sofa Spud

Er Yes! We need more road capacity for the expected increase in traffic and the Government can't/won't meet all the cost.

But are traffic levels going to increase? I thought traffic levels have reduced during the recession. There is only one way that fuel prices will go (as a trend) - up - as oil becomes more and more scarce, and motoring will get more and more expensive.

Just building toll motorways for rich drivers to by-pass congested sections won't solve the congestion problems for the rest of us. It's a bit like the high-speed trains on the Great Western main line - where the standard class coaches are overcrowded, with many passengers having to stand, while the first-class coaches are almost empty. Toll motorways won't solve the congestion problem on the normal motorway, they'll just offer a chance for well-off businessmen in their silver Mercedes and silver Audis to by-pass the congestion.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 23/03/2012 at 17:20

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 23 Mar 2012 19:29
Private Cash for Public Roads - Armitage Shanks {p}

There will be an increase over, say, the next 20 years. The rate of increase may be less than was thought likely a few years ago but there will be one. A small extra contrribution to congestion may well be the increase in the size of cars. If one compares the Polos, Golfs, Fiestas and Mondeos of today with the same named model from 20 years ago the difference is obvious.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 23 Mar 2012 20:01
Private Cash for Public Roads - jamie745

We can leave oil out of this argument for the time being because the motoring costs in the UK are more tax-focused than anything else. Theres plenty of Oil out there, the problem is how much the producers are willing to actually put out. Motoring costs will have to decrease because empty roads shatter economies. The last time I saw properly empty roads it was in Berlin during the late 80s. China are a prime example of how road usage powers economies, 20 years ago hardly anybody had a car, yet now they've bought another thousand in the time its taken me to write this.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link