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Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - greenmeeny

Hi everyone, I'm just getting to grips with the forum and would like to know how many of you use biodiesel in your vehicles?

I have a 1991 Land Rover Defender 110 with the naturally aspirated diesel engine fitted, and have so far clocked up 7000 trouble free miles using my own home-made biodiesel.

I am curious who else is running their vehicles on biodiesel, and whether they have had any problems. I am particulary interested in people who are using biodiesel in modern common rail injection cars.

Let me know if anyone is interested!

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - tony g
Hi blue ,can you explain what you do to produce home made bio diesel.

Regards

Tony g
Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - greenmeeny

Hi Tony,

I have a biobot machine, which is good, but could recommend better. This machine heats the waste veg oil. seperates any water. Next it is pumped into the top drum where I do a titration test to determine how 'used' the oil is. This determines how much catalyst I add. The catalyst is a mixture of methanol and potassium hydroxide. I add more potassium if the oil is dirtier.

Next the catalyst is fed into the warm oil and circulated. I then leave it to circulate with the pump running for a couple of hours. Turn the machine off, and leave the glycerol (the byproduct) to settle to the bottom. In the morning I drain the glycerol off, and then pump the bio through a dry resin filter that is integrated into the machine (for roughtly 6-8 hours). The bio is then ready, it gets pumped through a fuel filter to remove any remaining contaminates into my truck. And hey presto. Fuel for about 24p per litre!

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

KOH and methanol are not catalysts-they're reagents for the transeterification process.

The Landy's diesel engine is a different kettle of fish to a modern one. The modern ones run much higher injection pressures. WVO will work just fine in an old engine-but it is iffy in a new one-and very difficult with DPF.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - greenmeeny

Sorry I got the jargon wrong... the fundamentals of the process are there though. I understand the landy has a very simple engine, I was just curious to hear what other cars have been used on bio. A friend said his brother runs a 406 hdi on biodiesel with no problem. The worry of a fuel pump rebuild would scare me though!

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - Hamsafar

Actually, the methanol is used as the catalyst.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

It's the KOH!

Making quality diesel ain't simple and one really needs a good grasp of the chemistry involved rather than just following a recipe.

It doesn't matter too much in an IDI aslong as the viscosity isn't too high so as to damage the pump.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - tony g
So,if I bought new vegetable oil from a supermarket,what would I need to do to it, to use it in a modern diesel engine.

Please reply in simple terms as I know nothing about chemistry.

Also , approximately how much would the equipment cost to produce the converted product.

In addition the conversion process seems to involve some dangerous chemicals like methanol,how dangerous is it,and what waste products are produced.

Tony g.

Edited by tony g on 05/02/2012 at 01:16

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

In simple terms, you add methanol to the vegetable oil and heat the two together in the presence of potassium hydroxide. This is the process of transesterification.

Vegetable oil+methanol +(base catayst) = glycerol+methyl esters

The methyl esters are the wanted 'biodiesel'. They sit on top of the by product glycerols which are tapped off.

The resulting fuel is more 'diesel like' than vegetable oil, but it still isn't diesel. There are two main problems with b100 (100% biodiesel):

  • It is very viscous when cold-and hence does not flow well and can damage high pressure fuel pumps. The boiling range of biodiesel is higher than diesel so post injections used for DPF regens tend to end up on your cylinder bores and not in the exhaust stream...
  • Biodiesel contains oxygen. This is why biodiesel creates less soot than normal diesel. Unfortunately, it also reduces the energy content of the fuel and reduces the high temperature stability of the fuel which can undergo polymerisation in the accumulator rail and injectors.

Cost effective? Well starting at ~£1/litre for vegetable at the supermarket-don't even think about it! You won't break even.

For biodiesel to be cost effective, you need a source of waste vegetable oil-and that's a niche sector.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - 475TBJ

According to all the information I've read vegetable oil is not suitable for common rail diesel engines.

It works best with Bosch fuel pump cars.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - ChannelZ

I ran commercially bought B80 in my Astra 2.0DTi for 20,000 miles, not a problem.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - 475TBJ

I ran commercially bought B80 in my Astra 2.0DTi for 20,000 miles, not a problem.

Was that 100%?

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

That would be B100!

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - Bobbin Threadbare

How to run your car on chip oil: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7047128.stm

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - 475TBJ

unthrottled, I realised afterwards! Thanks for the correction!

People need to research this carefully otherwise it could be false economy.

Edited by 475TBJ on 05/02/2012 at 11:20

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

It's like the log burning stove phenonemon: everyone likes the idea of a cosy stove with cheery carbon neutral flames beating off the winter blues. But then they realise just how much wood it takes to run one. And once more than a few people buy into the concept, old farmer MacTaggart isn't interested in giving you a year's supply of seasoned timber in exhange for a bottle of whisky at christmas. Then you get the unedifying reality of people stealing wood from other people's gardens and forestry commision land.

There just isn't enough waste veg oil to make a dent in diesel consumption. For a lucky few, it makes a nice pastime though!

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

P.S. If you buy ready made B100 on the basis of it being slightly cheaper than regular diesel, think twice. The calorific value of B100 is about 15% less than ordinary diesel-that means you'll be get about 15% less mpg.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - greenmeeny

Older pre cdi mercedes diesels run great on bio. In fact, any car with indirect injection should be fine. The viscosity of my bio is no greater than normal diesel in this weather. I save loads driving my landy round, as she only does 20 to the gallon!

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - ChannelZ

P.S. If you buy ready made B100 on the basis of it being slightly cheaper than regular diesel, think twice. The calorific value of B100 is about 15% less than ordinary diesel-that means you'll be get about 15% less mpg.

9% lower calorific value, but higher cetane value, so it works out pretty much the same.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

9% lower calorific value, but higher cetane value, so it works out pretty much the same.

???

How is cetane rating rating a substitute for energy?

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - craig-pd130

@unthrottled -- complete tanget, but here's a copy of the spec sheet for V-Power Diesel. Dates back to 2007, but one or two interesting differences. No bio content and very low particulates. http://www.vectra-c.com/forum/uploader/pics/picsNov2007/Shell%20VPD.JPG

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - glowplug

I'm running my 2.1TD XM on a SVO/Diesel/Bio cocktail according to what's available when. I had 100 litres of out of date SVO that I used last year mixed with either Bio or Dino diesel. It runs great but then it's IDI with a Bosch pump. I've got another complete engine for spares so when the old pump seals start to weep I can have the other one ready with veg resistant seals ready to swap over.

I also have a log burning stove but haven't yet resorted to the unedifying behavour aspect. I get my wood from road side skips or friends that have cut down/back their trees and such. If it's painted wood I'm given I plane it off and I don't burn composits. There's still plenty of wood to be had but it takes time and effort.

Steve.

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - ChannelZ

How is cetane rating rating a substitute for energy?

Higher cetane means it burns quicker, so less energy is wasted as half-burnt reek going out the exhaust valve...

Land Rover Defender - Who's running biodiesel in their motor? - unthrottled

Higher cetane means it burns quicker, so less energy is wasted as half-burnt reek going out the exhaust valve...

Higher cetane causes it to ignite more quickly. But the flame itself is diffusion controlled and the combustion duration depends on the injection pattern and the motion of air-nothing to do with centane.

You see the same mix up with octane. Peole think high octane means it burns more completely or some such rubbish.

Combustion is typically pretty much done by 30-40 DATDC.The amount of unburnt fuel is very small. If even 1% of unburnt fuel leaves the cylinder, the smoke would be totally unacceptable.