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Sun 8 Jan 2012 21:12

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - 475TBJ

.................everything

Ministers are considering raising the speed limit on motorways and dual carriageways from 70 miles per hour to 80mph as part of plans to cut red tape and speed up Britain.

But public health experts, writing in the British Medical Journal, are "amazed" by the idea, which they insist contradicts international road safety evidence. Comparable speed increases introduced in the US in 1995 led to a 16.6 per cent rise in deaths in road accidents.

Martin McKee, professor of European public health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, said there was little evidence to support claims of economic benefits as heavy goods vehicles would still be capped at 60mph. "If the limit moves to 80, most people will drive at 90," he added.

The authors of the report suggested the proposal was nothing more than a "populist gimmick" and wrote: "It is difficult to see how any benefits of an 80mph speed limit would outweigh the costs. Past evidence shows that speed limit increases lead to substantial rises in road deaths, as well as other potential negative health and economic impacts."

Citing the recent crash on the M5 in which seven people lost their lives the authors challenged the Government to provide solid evidence to justify its hopes of pleasing the motoring lobby by raising the limit.

Mike Penning, the Roads minister, said: "[We are] carrying out detailed work to assess the potential impacts of increasing the speed limit and will consult fully on our proposals."

One of the statistical models being used by the Department for Transport suggests that an 80mph limit would lead to a 20 per cent rise in fatalities on the UK's motorways

Proposals to increase the maximum speed limit will cost lives, harm the environment and produce few of the economic benefits claimed by the Government, a report warns.

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 21:24

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - RT

Citing the recent crash on the M5 in which seven people lost their lives the authors challenged the Government to provide solid evidence to justify its hopes of pleasing the motoring lobby by raising the limit.

The M5 crash happened in bad weather with poor visibility with smoke drifting across the road - a 70 or 80 limit would have made no difference to the outcome as the safe speed was much lower anyway.

This is the problem with crusades, they lose sight of the big picture and quote irrelevant examples to support their "case".

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 21:33

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - unthrottled

The BMJ appear to have delusions of grandeur. They are not supposed to be lobbysts for restrictive legislation.

I doubt that there are compelling economic reasons to raise the speed limit to 80mph. However, the basic premise of a free country is that an activity is permitted-unless there are compelling externalities which would encroach upon the freedom of others. There appears to be few such concerns with respect to the 80mph limit.

The environmental argument is particularly specious. It cannot be denied that travelling at 80mph uses considerably more fuel than driving at 70. nevertheless, If we permit progressives to gallivant round the globe on tax-fee aviation fuel, then it seems rather perverse to start handwringing about the fuel consumption of a Ford Focus driving from Leeds to Manchester.

Raising the maximum permitted speed limit doesn't mean that all drivers will avail themselves of the extra speed. You only have to look at the number of drivers pottering at 40 on roads with 60 limits to see this.

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 21:46

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Bobbin Threadbare

I had heard, on the radio news, that there is a concern that upping to 80mph will fuel the obesity crisis. I have no idea how someone's come up with that....!!

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 21:51

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - unthrottled

Obviously if people consume more fuel whilst driving then they will consume more food. Simples. ;-)

I want to limit 747s to 50mph to save fuel. if that happens to be below stall speed-tough!

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 22:03

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - balleballe

I had heard, on the radio news, that there is a concern that upping to 80mph will fuel the obesity crisis. I have no idea how someone's come up with that....!!

simple! more fuel spent on petrol - leads to depression

Depression leads to eating and thus the vicious cycle begins

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 22:33

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - bathtub tom

Bobbin.

According to clerics in a certain Moslem country, allowing women to drive will result in increased prostitution and all sorts of undesirable problems.

You don't drive, do you?

;>)

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 23:14

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - jamie745

It'd be too easy to pick this report apart that it'd be embarassing so im not even going to bother. Plenty of weak strawmen arguments in there, including several we saw coming long ago.

The 80mph = 20% increase strawman is a piece of junk science which really does infuriate me. Its no more substantiated than the old Brake favourite ' a 1mph reduction in speed limits leads to a 5% reduction in accidents ' which is bogus junk science. That conclusion came from a questionable combination of six studies in which different speed limit changes were examined as to their consequences. All of them in different countries, all of them on different sorts of roads, all on roads of different speed limits and all of them in different years (different decades in some cases) and each of the studies was examining different things. Some were only measuring fatal accidents, others included non-fatal etc etc. They added them all together, divided by a random number, stuck a line through it to show 'correlation' and invented the statement. How a Danish rural road having a 5mph speed reduction in the 80s can be put into the same statistical field as American interstates raising the limit to 75 in the 90s i have no idea.

That sort of thing must make the blood of our resident scientists (unthrottled, bobbin et al) boil furiously.

And by the way, why is the M5 crash included in this report? As far as i was aware the investigation is not complete and speed has not been established as a causal factor. I read about an incident in the paper the other day where a terribly unfortunate lady died when a Land Rover came towards her on the wrong side of the road, resulting in a collision. A road safety charity said it couldve been avoided if the road had a lower speed limit. Have you ever heard anything so moronic?

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 12:14

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Bobbin Threadbare

Bobbin.

According to clerics in a certain Moslem country, allowing women to drive will result in increased prostitution and all sorts of undesirable problems.

You don't drive, do you?

;>)

Goodness no. This is all pretence. Can't have women like me running amok on the roads.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 21:46

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - balleballe

Bobbin.

According to clerics in a certain Moslem country, allowing women to drive will result in increased prostitution and all sorts of undesirable problems.

You don't drive, do you?

;>)

That info is incorrect, please refrain from mentioning a subject that you clearly know nothing about.

Thankyou

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 11:04

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - bonzo dog

I don't know whether the economic argument is fact or fantasy; same for environmental or most other arguments. However:

the basic premise of a free country is that an activity is permitted-unless there are compelling externalities which would encroach upon the freedom of others.

Totally agree but what I do belive is that a significant % of the UK population are incapable of behaving sensibly when offered a little bit more freedom. We have seen this with the alcohol licencing laws & the relaxations in the interpretation of drug legistlation. Similarly in dishing out ASBOs instead of locking the litlle XXXXXXXs up

There appears to be few such concerns with respect to the 80mph limit.

The majority of the car & van drivers I see on the roads typicaly drive at 20 to 30% above the speed limit in the 30 &40 areas & 10 to 20% above in the 50, 60 & 70 areas.

Don't get me wrong, I think that 80 is a perfectly acceptable speed to be driving along a not too congested motorway, but you give people an inch .......etc

Edited by bonzo dog on 09/01/2012 at 11:05

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 11:39

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - unthrottled

The majority of the car & van drivers I see on the roads typicaly drive at 20 to 30% above the speed limit in the 30 &40 areas & 10 to 20% above in the 50, 60 & 70 areas.

Them we must live in different parts of the country. I can't seem to get anywhere near the national speed limit because of blights of selfish old fools tottering along at thirty something on A roads.

We have seen this with the alcohol licencing laws & the relaxations in the interpretation of drug legistlation. Similarly in dishing out ASBOs instead of locking the litlle XXXXXXXs up

You're not getting away with that! Have you tried buying a drink after 11pm in your local area?-you'll find surprisingly few venues sell it? The free-for-all you read about in the Daily Mail simply isn't happening.

Drugs are a different matter. Classic problems of prohibition creating a lucrative black market. No one wants to admit that the war on drugs is unwinnablw. Which is a shame because if drugs were properly licenced we could raise revenue and cut crime in one go...

Totally agree but what I do belive is that a significant % of the UK population are incapable of behaving sensibly when offered a little bit more freedom.

Evidence? The other drivers on the road will have either:

1.) Taken the same driving test as you and have similar years' experience

2.) Taken harder driving tests than you albeit less experience.

You can't assume everyone else is an idiot!

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 12:25

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - bonzo dog

You're not getting away with that! Have you tried buying a drink after 11pm in your local area?-

I can't remember (no pun intended!) the last time I went out & didn't get a drink after 11.00. I genuinely don't know of any pub or club I've been into in the past few years who stopped serving at 11.00 on a Friday or Saturday. In addition all the ones I know of have the ability to serve after 11.00 should they choose to.

Drugs are a different matter. Classic problems of prohibition creating a lucrative black market. No one wants to admit that the war on drugs is unwinnablw. Which is a shame because if drugs were properly licenced we could raise revenue and cut crime in one go

We clearly have a different outlook on life. There has never been a "war" on drugs. There have been some half-hearted attempts to limit the supply & very little in the way of enforcing the laws on posession; I'm uncertain if there are any laws on consumption? The relaxation of the laws have lead to illegal drugs being readiliy available in most urban areas. I guess from your comments you would like to see illegal drugs legalised, for the reasons you state. This would lead to a complete explosion in the consumption

Evidence?

My eyes

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 12:37

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - unthrottled

I genuinely don't know of any pub or club I've been into in the past few years who stopped serving at 11.00 on a Friday or Saturday.

Yes, an extra hour at Weekends. Hardly Sodom and Gomorrah, is it?!

This would lead to a complete explosion in the consumption.

Well, the insipid, half-baked decriminalisation employed in Portugal and the Netherlands doesn't seem to have caused an explosion in consumption in those countries...

I can think of much better things to spend tax payers' money on than chasing down junkies and dope pushers and junkies only to lock them up at a cost of about £30,000 p.a. Pyrrhic Victory methinks.

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Sun 8 Jan 2012 23:11

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - tanvir

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that if the speed limit is raised to 80, this will have no effect on anything, as people will drive exactly as they do now (except where cameras reside).

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 09:24

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Trilogy

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that if the speed limit is raised to 80, this will have no effect on anything, as people will drive exactly as they do now (except where cameras reside).

Indeed, people will just drive faster........................human nature.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 12:10

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Trilogy

'The majority of the car & van drivers I see on the roads typicaly drive at 20 to 30% above the speed limit in the 30 &40 areas & 10 to 20% above in the 50, 60 & 70 areas.'

Indeed, if I take my most used route to work and drive at 60 mph on that A road, there will still be people overtaking and disappearing into the distance. NB its a road with lots of straights, so plenty of opportunity for people to drive excessively of they wish to do so. Still, I'd rather they go past than tailgate me, not that all do.

Edited by Trilogy on 09/01/2012 at 12:11

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 12:16

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Bobbin Threadbare

I'm with Tanvir. Raising to 80mph will make no odds (up here in the North anyway). M6 into Cumbria even on a Monday morning is a reasonably quiet affair, with the traffic speed noticeably higher than 70mph. There are always police cars about but they ignore the speeders; I've only seen poor drivers i.e. dangerous cutting up, pulled over.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 12:50

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Trilogy

I'm with Tanvir. Raising to 80mph will make no odds (up here in the North anyway). M6 into Cumbria even on a Monday morning is a reasonably quiet affair, with the traffic speed noticeably higher than 70mph. There are always police cars about but they ignore the speeders; I've only seen poor drivers i.e. dangerous cutting up, pulled over.

Motorways are the safest roads. If traffic is flowing well, unless there is an idiot on the road, I think police tend to leave well alone.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 13:22

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - skittles

Don't increase the speed limits, just give the police some descration, like they used to have.

Up to the late 90s the police used to ignore speeding on quiet motorways, especially at night. I used to do ovenight deliveries of computer parts (when computer bits were expensive in the 80s and early 90s) I regulay pass police cars doing over 100mph, I was never stopped.

Meanwhile the EU are proposig that all urban areas should have a speed limit of 30kms per hour which is just over 18mph

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 15:33

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - jamie745

Its fantastic to have unthrottled back, smashing down half-truths and unsubstantiated nonsense once again.

Honestly bonzo dog some of your arguments are just as half baked and daft as the ones in this 80mph report. Twisting things round based on presumption with precious backup of any fact to 'prove' a point of some sort. I really hate that.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 15:47

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Trilogy

jamie, unthrotteld has been back for a little while. ;)

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 15:53

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - jamie745

But he's fully warmed up now.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 16:21

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - Bobbin Threadbare

He's given himself an Italian tune-up. Few cups of espresso and a packet of Marlboroughs ;-)

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 16:23

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - bonzo dog

based on presumption with precious backup of any fact to 'prove' a point of some sort

Yes, my views are "presumptions" & in my book a "presumption" is a view that is not based on proof ...... that's what makes it a "presumption".

Until there is a change in the legal speed limit no-one will actually know what the effects will be.

The authors of the report have put forward their "presumptions" & that is what the whole purpose of this thread is ..... to discuss & debate these & the various contributers "presumptions"

Don't worry Jamie, I don't expect you to comprehend this; it's a little over your head, I know.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 17:08

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - BenG

I'd suggest some enforcement of the existing limit before trying to raise it. Speed limits generally in this country seem to servce as minimum rather than maximum speed.

I'm sick of seeing people flying through 30 limits like idiots and blasting along motorways at warp speed terrorising anyone with the temerity to drive legally or even only speed slightly...

And yes I'm a cyclist but also a driver with a moderately nippy remapped turbodiesel.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 17:15

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - unthrottled

Speed limits generally in this country seem to servce as minimum rather than maximum speed.... I'm sick of seeing people flying through 30 limits like idiots

I don't think it is wise to extrapolate driver behaviour in 30 zones to other roads. The sort of people that speed in 30 limits are probably not the same people who speed on motorways. A lot of (generally elederly) drivers career through 30 zones at 40, and continue to drive at 40 when the limit changes to 60! They then get upset when they get tailgated on the open road.

Like a lot of drivers, I respect 30 zones (usually!) but on the open road, it is open season as far as I'm concerned. I don't feel remotely 'terrorised' when someone overtakes me at 90+ on the motorway.

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 17:26

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - RT

I think MORE drivers treat 70 as a minimum on motorways - rather than 30 !!

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 17:28

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - bonzo dog

I don't feel remotely 'terrorised' when someone overtakes me at 90+ on the motorway

& neither do I, although I do object when I'm overtaking in the outside lane @ 70 to have someone attempting to "terrorise" me into getting out of his way

A lot of (generally elederly) drivers career through 30 zones at 40, and continue to drive at 40 when the limit changes to 60! They then get upset when they get tailgated on the open road.

Whilst irritating, drivers who drive too slow are not an excuse to tailgate (& I know you are not saying you do, unthrottled).

Both the above cases are all too common with most drivers (who I see) driving as they see fit, irrespective of laws & courtesy to others. My whole point about my earlier thread

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 17:53

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - jamie745

Radio phone ins have been equally excruitating on this matter. Fussy thick mothers going 'i dont want to do 80 with my kids in the car!'

Well don't then! How hard can it be to comprehend?

Edited by Avant on 09/01/2012 at 20:49

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 19:16

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - sirionman

Never mind the rise to 80 mph on the motorways. In amongst this change is also a roll-out of legislation that will allow local authorities to impose 20 mph limits in urban areas. And we all know local authorities will be all over that like a rash as a cash-cow to ping motorists with "speeding" fines if you exceed 20 mph, if you can call doing 21 mph actually speeding. I can hear the cash register at the council office ringing aloud already.

So in short you will need to drive faster on the motorway to arrive at your final destination in an urban area at the same time. So get your lead shoe on the throttle.

As an aside, will cyclists be pinged for speeding in a 20 mph zone - I doubt it because they don't have a registration plate. I see it now, cars will be regularly over-taken by bikes and exceeding the 20 mph limit with impunity. Super.

Regards

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 19:27

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - unthrottled

Both the above cases are all too common with most drivers (who I see) driving as they see fit,

I'm not condoning aggressive behaviour but I think it is generally a good thing when drivers 'drive as they see fit'. Even if we think that they don't make the best decisions, at least they are showing awareness of their surroundings.

Encouraging drivers to think is the rationale behind 'shared space' schemes which tries to encourage drivers to read the environment rather than simply slavishly obeying the speed limit and going into autopilot.

It's all too easy for drivers to think that, by virtue of driving under the speed limit, that they are being inherently safe. I worry much more about F.A.R.T.s than the aggressive rep in his Audi A4.

Edited by unthrottled on 09/01/2012 at 19:29

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Mon 9 Jan 2012 19:44

Report says 80 mph speed limit is bad for......... - jamie745

Never mind the rise to 80 mph on the motorways. In amongst this change is also a roll-out of legislation that will allow local authorities to impose 20 mph limits in urban areas.

That is a good point. Im not bothered about the 80mph proposal or debate to be honest, the bigger threat is the 20mph idea for urban areas and all the fuss over the 80mph will take up all the headlines and news and make everybody forget about the 20mph topic so as that can be snuck in under the radar. Its easier to create controversy about going fast than about going slow, the Government dont plan to impliment the 80mph idea they're just using it to distract attention from their 20mph plan.

As an aside, will cyclists be pinged for speeding in a 20 mph zone - I doubt it because they don't have a registration plate. I see it now, cars will be regularly over-taken by bikes and exceeding the 20 mph limit with impunity. Super.

Well that's what they've always wanted, to make cars slower than cycling. To make car travel pointless. To make car travel so inconvenient that you're bullied out of your car. Thats been the plan for quite a few years now and this is another step closer to it. They wont improve public transport or anything, whats the point when its easier to just make the car worse instead?

The car has brought the world so much, the whole point of having one is to get places quickly but theres so many authorities and jobsworths in this country seeking to destroy the main benefit of the motorcar.

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