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Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

I am about to pursue some bathroom fitters through the small claims court, to get back a large amount of money after they bodged the refit. For example, they used cement based adhesive on bare gypsum plaster walls, which is a no no, because the two undergo a chemical reaction leading to tiles falling off. I am confident of a positive outcome, as I have letters from them in which they make statements which conflict with themselves, and with 3 independent surveys I commissioned. Anyway, I am preparing the case, and I would appreciate help with how best to present the information:

  1. I have written a 4 page summary with dates, and brief details, including references to letters and independent surveys, an adhesive datasheet, an adhesive packet, A4 photographs, and online information.
  2. How is it best to label the associated documents? Is it okay to for example write in red pen "Document 4" on the first page?
  3. Is it okay to write in indelible ink "Photograph 3" on the back of the third photo?
  4. I have some ceramic tiles that I kep as evidence as they show very poor wall contact e.g. 20%. Should I photograph these and attach photos, or simply mention them, and then carry them into court?
  5. I have an adhesive packet with relevant information on it e.g. "Contains cement". Should I photograph the relevant information, or just mention it and carry the packet into court?

Other helpful comments are welcome. Many thanks. Incidentally, I am impressed with how helpful Topps Tiles have been. I'm not trying to advertise for them, but they have been very helpful in providing datasheets, and other information. Obviously they are one of the 'good guys'.

As an aside, you might wonder why I am not using a solicitor. Well, after my experience some years back, I feel I can do a better job of presenting the evidence in a clear, honest, and straightforward manner, without risking a huge legal fee. I feel that the case is very clear cut, with lots of evidence on my side, and it simply requires to be presented well for the judge to decide.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats

What area are you in Leif?? I had a similar experience with a "bathroom fitter", he took me to court as I hadn't paid the full bill, but counter-claimed and was awarded my claim.

If you haven't paid yet, best to wait for them to take you to court (this was the advice given to me by a lawyer).

If you do go to court the judge is likey to appoint an expert rather than rely on your independent surveys, if this happens, you probably need to get a condition wruitten in that whoever loses the case covers the full costs of said expert, as they don't come cheap!!

Happy to give more advice......

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Bobbin Threadbare

Leif - hold off paying. My mum had a totally useless bathroom fitter but she paid up and never pursued it, even though I encouraged her to get some redress on the worst 'professional' fitting I have ever seen.

I hope your claim is successful!

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

Thanks for the replies. The problem is that I paid a large sum. I thought I was okay as they had lots of glowing reviews on CheckATrade. I have since heard from some people that some trades post fake reviews. Some, perhaps most, are genuine though.

I do know how much expert witnesses cost i.e. a lot. I had the bathroom refitted (it is my home, and they had 7 weeks to appoint someone of their choosing), so the witness would have to comment on the surveys, and evidence e.g. tiles saved.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats

Don't get me started on CheckATrade, we reported the firm that messed up our bathrooms to them in the hope that they wouldn't register them, and surprise, surprise not long after they are on there and have glowing reports, many of which look very suspicious, i.e. the firm have written them themselves as you suspect.

The experts certainly don't come cheap, but it's probably your only hope, the thing going against you is that you have paid up and you have had the remeadial work done, which will then probably come down to your word and the word of your new firm) against theirs!

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats

Leif

What area are you in, i'm intrigued as to whether it might just be teh same company, as your story is very similar to mine!

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

Hello Rats, the people concerned are in Basingstoke. I'm not aware of them having stuffed anyone else's home.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - daveyjp
I have been involved in Court cases and prepared evidence with a solicitor.

Each piece of evidence has been put in a transparent filing sleeve with a sticker on the front indicating the evidence number.

The file has an index in the front.

This is done to protect the evidence as many people may flick through it.

The Judge doesn't have time to sort through things, they ask very pointed questions relating to evidence therefore clarity is key for all parties.

Edited by daveyjp on 06/01/2012 at 20:45

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - tony g
Hi leif,
I've been through the small claims process several times ,it's not as formal as you would expect.

The judge works without assistance and sits at the head of a large table.the opposing parties sit on either side of the table.
The first thing to be aware of that this is justice on the cheap and is conducted at speed.Generally the case will be concluded within thirty minutes .the judge will process 12 cases a day.

It follows that you need to keep your presentation short .Try to condense your presentation to a single sheet of a4.It must be type written.

Break up your case into paragraphs no more than 5 lines each.The whole thing should be quick and easy to read.Make sure that any supporting evidence is in the same chronological order as your A4 presentation.

Offer the judge the a4 first ,he will then ask you questions ,don't embellish your answers ,if you don't know the answers say so.

Don't interrupt the opposing party when they present ,wait for the judge to ask you to comment.

In short the judge will control and direct the whole process .

Also bear in mind decisions are made based largely on the judges opinion and experience.From time to time they make perverse decisions .
The decision is final in a small claims court and usually can't be appealed.

Finally does the opposing party have the means to pay you if you win ,does he appear to have a house or vehicles.If he is unwilling to pay ,you can ask the court to use bailiffs ,but their is an extra charge for that .

Good luck.

Please let the forum know the outcome.

Tony g










Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats
The first thing to be aware of that this is justice on the cheap and is conducted at speed.Generally the case will be concluded within thirty minutes .the judge will process 12 cases a day. It follows that you need to keep your presentation short .Try to condense your presentation to a single sheet of a4.



When I went to court, certainly wasn't conducted in thirty minutes, it took virtually all day, and each party had approx. 50 pages of evidence including photos etc.



Other than that, I tend to agree with Tony g, DO, make sure you are confident with what you write/say and don't embelish, this will help especially if the other party does, and listen very carefully to what they say, and challenge it WHEN your time to speak comes.



Leif, very interesting, I am also in Hampshire, but down the bottom end, not sure if the cowboy we employed has managed to get his horse to travel as far as Basingstoke!



Regards

AndyR
Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - tony g
Andy r
Hi andy ,I guess theirs no reason why a judge can't take as long as necessary to resolve a claim.
Could I ask, was your claim in the small claims court ?

What in general was the case about ,50 pages of evidence and a whole day in court .Seems unusual for the small claims court.

I was involved in resolving a boundary /access issue about five years ago ,it was heard in the crown court.It took a day and a half to hear.The court costs to the party who lost was £65000.The small claims court looks a very attractive proposition compared to that.

Regards

Tony g







Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats

Hi Tony

I don't imagine the judge would string it out any longer than they deem necesary, in was indeed on the small claims track....also the independant expert was called in by the other party on the morning of the case, which cost each side another £250 or so, although, this was good valuie to me as the other party crucified himself :-)

The fifty pages included quotes, emails, photographs, witness statements etc.

The small claims track is indeed designed to resolve these sort of issues, generally upto a limit of £5000 I beleive.

regards
AndyR

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats

I have recently found out that his horse must have had a good run, as he has ended up in Lincoln........

Lincoln residents beware!

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

Thanks for the additional answers. I will try and condense the presentation, but it is not easy. I guess I will remove anything that equates to padding rather than hard fact.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

Thanks again. I have condensed the summary to two and a half pages (can't really do less), and all supporting documents are now numbered, with each one in a clear plastic sleeve. The condensed summary does read better, in my opinion anyway, and the sleeves do make it look more organised, and simpler. And because the summary is shorter, it is easier to take in, which should help the judge.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - johncyprus
Ah, CheckATrade: my elderly vulnerable parents were targeted by some of the travelling fraternity who were on the ChectATrade leaflet and who did a pigs ear of a driveway for my parents. I eventually got them off my parents back and reported back to CheckATrade that they had, shall we say the wrong sort of people on their leaflet and CheckATrade weren't interested.

Moral: ignore CheckATrade; much better to use personal recommendation.
Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Rats

johncyprus - I could not agree more, they were totally un-interested when I reported a rogue trader to them!

In our area Trading Standards run a scheme called Buy with Confidence, at least that seems to be properly regulated and isn't just a money making scheme.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

johncyprus - I could not agree more, they were totally un-interested when I reported a rogue trader to them!

In our area Trading Standards run a scheme called Buy with Confidence, at least that seems to be properly regulated and isn't just a money making scheme.

Yes, CheckATrade is no more than an advertising sheet, and they don't give a hoot if a trade stuffs up a job. I have found that CheckATrade will edit reviews by members of the public without their knowledge or consent, as they did with my review. They changed the "I have lost £3000" to "I have lost some money". Quite a difference. And the trade can post a response that is a pack of lies, which is exactly what happened in my case. Apparently they have refunded some money, and are seeking to resolve the issue. And I have refused to allow them to inspect the bathroom. Except that I have received no money, they ignore the surveys I commissioned, and I said they could send someone to inspect the bathroom. I provided documents to CheckATrade to prove that the trade had lied, and they did nothing. They really do not give a damn. It is totally biased in favour of the trade. It is a scam in my opinion, allegedly.

Anyway, an update.

It turns out that the cowboys were on the Buy With Confidence scheme. Exept that my complaint to Consumer Direct was not forwarded to Trading Standards . But after 5 months a Trading Standards officer offered to mediate. He examined my documents and agreed the work was sub-standard, and I was entitled to compensation. The cowboys are trying to weasel out of it, but he seems to be pushing them towards a resolution. The BWC scheme does not guarantee good work, but it does mean that if bad work is done, then TS will intervene, if they find out. Hopefully I will know in a couple of weeks whether or not legal action is required. I have sent the notice of legal action letter in preparation. If they do not comply, then they will be removed from the BWC scheme, which makes it better than CheckATrade which allows bodgers to rip off people and carry on. CheckATrade have seen the evidence that according to Trading Standards proves that the work was below the legally required standard, and yet they allow they to continue on the CheckATrade web site. Hi ho.

As said above, only ever employ a trade by personal recommendation from someone you trust, and not another trade, or an advertising web site.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Armitage Shanks {p}

Why should a successful claimant have topay bailff's fees for having property removed from the home of someone who has lost a judgement and can't/won't pay. He is the instigator of his own problems and he should have to pay.

I did have bailffs go in, ordered by a court, to give my non-payer 7 days notice of what they were going to come back and remove 7 days later. That certainly didn't cost me anything and proved a spur to settlement as well!.

Bathroom dispute: small claims court questions - Leif

Why should a successful claimant have topay bailff's fees for having property removed from the home of someone who has lost a judgement and can't/won't pay. He is the instigator of his own problems and he should have to pay.

I did have bailffs go in, ordered by a court, to give my non-payer 7 days notice of what they were going to come back and remove 7 days later. That certainly didn't cost me anything and proved a spur to settlement as well!.

My understanding is that the debtor has to pay the bailiff out of yheir own funds i.e. the claimant does not pay.