It isn't the most interesting thread I've seen anyway: no Government is going to reduce fuel tax so there's not a lot of point in going on about it.
Not with your sort of defeatist attitude they wont. Im sick of people sitting around doing nothing going 'oh it wont change anyway' not realising its that attitude which has caused the problem. Sorry its not a thrilling thread about the merits of the Skoda Octavia but usually the most important topics tend to be quite dull.
And im not actually asking for a reduction in fuel tax. Even though they did reduce it in the budget this year (a gesture, given the VAT rise, but less is less). All i want is for people to pay a fair price for a product, currently i dont feel this is the case with our fuel. I want to see duty frozen for this Parliament and for VAT to only be applied to the product, i cant see how taxing tax can be legal for a start but it artificially inflates the price needlessly.
Currently if a litre of petrol is 132.9 it breaks down like this. Duty 58p, Product 48p, VAT 22p, Retailer/Delivery 5p
Keen maths students will instantly see the VAT is applied at a rate of 20% on top of the other three costs. If VAT was applied purely to the product and delivery the VAT would be around 11p, not 22p, instantly dropping pump prices by 10pence. This isnt 'treasury losing money' the fact is they've been unfairly raking it in with this questionable practice for years, if they've wasted what they stole thats their problem. Fair price for a fair product, thats all im asking for. In fact if they did just that, a duty freeze and apply the VAT only to the product i think people would take that and settle for that.
Edited by jamie745 on 19/10/2011 at 00:47
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Our petrol is cheaper than in several European countries. The money has not been stolen, it has been legally collected and some of it has been wasted.
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Don Quixote made more sense tilting at windmills.
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Our petrol is cheaper than in several European countries. The money has not been stolen, it has been legally collected and some of it has been wasted.
Its only cheaper here because we get a better deal on the raw product than alot of European nations. Our tax is higher than the rest of Europe. And it has been stolen as charging VAT on tax is an underhand way of receiving the same tax money twice and theres no way that can be legal surely? If they have 'collected legally' its only because they made an illegal practice now legal.
Not enough people realise how big a problem the tax is, they swallow the oil prices story and believes its due to that, i still think on petrol pumps beside the price it should have the tax rate so as everybody sees it and on a receipt for £50 worth of fuel for instance that it states only £17 of it is actually petrol (and the retailer only makes £2, so we cant blame them) When you've got practically every haulier in the country saying they cannot compete with foreign firms, one hand tied behind back etc all due to the fuel tax you must acknowledge there is a problem. You dont get this many companies all saying the same thing without some merit to it.
And the VAT on Duty means an average family car doing 40mpg on an average mileage (10k, for example) pays an extra £115 a year in extra VAT due to this questionable practice.
Edited by jamie745 on 19/10/2011 at 15:49
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Jamie,
The current generous benefits, plus made up Government , Local Authority & NHS jobs NEED to be paid for some way, our taxes do this.
And I think I recall that you are a Labour supporter? (& see above)
I more resent the 2.5% levy on my various insurance premiums......to pay for the neer-do-wells who will not pay insurances but are good at both causing accidents & claiming given any excuse.
Remember I started the thread to the effect that our fuel was not expensive compared to the rest of Europe, take for instance Hungary where the minimum wage is a paltry Euro 2.50 or thereabouts, but their fuel is not less than 1/2 the price of ours.
just a thought
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And I think I recall that you are a Labour supporter? (& see above)
I dont support anybody and for the record i think Miliband is a joke. Im the definition of floating voter and will always question who's in power regardless of party. I dont particularly support a party but i do feel voting is important, even if the best you can do is vote for who you disagree with the least, which is probably what i do.
Im highly critical of some of the cuts currently and have questioned the new Governments deficit reduction plans but ive criticised Labour brutally on transport policy and their anti-car idealogy (see various posts with Prescott and Livingstone mentioned) and believe in low tax economy and 'small Government' so which camp does that put me in? Labour? Conservative? You tell me.
The current generous benefits, plus made up Government , Local Authority & NHS jobs NEED to be paid for some way, our taxes do this.
Of course but theres still alot of Government money being spent needlessly and alot of those jobs, specifically councils and local authority jobs dont need to exist. Ive seen councils employing three people in the role of 'Climate Change Officers' at 40k a year EACH and councils can afford iPads for binmen etc so theres still plenty to cut which will hopefully give further scope for tax cuts/freezes in the future as a result of those savings.
Im calling for the most heavily taxed fuel in the World to be made a little fairer and you accuse me of wanting to put nurses out of work so as i can have cheap fuel, thats way off the mark mate. Its like when Tony Blair described the fuel protests as 'taking money away from the elderly and children.' Which is the sort of emotive rubbish you could use in response to every taxation criticism. In his world if you didnt 100% agree then you therefore 100% disagreed by default, i dont like that way of working things.
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Jamie for Prime Minister!
I fully agree with everything you have said.
Also this is not a boring thread at all.Its been the best read i've had on here for a while.
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I dont support anybody and for the record i think Miliband is a joke. Im the definition of floating voter and will always question who's in power regardless of party. I dont particularly support a party but i do feel voting is important, even if the best you can do is vote for who you disagree with the least, which is probably what i do.
I generally support what you are saying Jamie. There are still a lot of stupid pointless organisations like OECD that employ loads of highly paid intellectuals to spout nonsense about the UK economy etc. I have no real strong political direction other than whoever seems to be the most competent people to run the country, and this wasn't the previous labour government or particularly the one we have now.
Re your earlier article about fuel price breakdown, it is interesting that the government taxes TAX itself in the form of Tax on duty !
It would be lovely to sort out the NHS issues granted, I myself could do with an expensive-ish drug for arthritis which they won't give me unless I get much sicker ! However, the NHS is the worlds largest single employer, ie there is no other single organisation or company that employs so many people, and being a businessman myself, I have seen what happens to very large companies let alone something as big as the NHS. So this will be a mamoth task, ie rooting out the highly paid non-medical managers who spend all of their time looking at car brochures and buy to let properties !
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Less fuel sold?
Obvious to anyone, the stuff is too damned expensive, the tax on it is extortionate, but as we live in a country run by well heeled people who think it's some sort of huge benevolent charity then that won't change in any of our lifetimes.
Another obvious reason is that many people did what they were told to by the govt of the day, in the interests of their pockets and the environment they bought fuel efficient cars, the govt wanted this and they got it, the result is less fuel being sold despite the country's population growing at an unsustainable rate.
As for tax and more tax, look forward to a lifetime of paying ever more of your income as we subsidise ever more people here and elsewhere, and borrow ever more to pay interest on the previous borrowing to repay the previous borrowing ad infinitum...you couldn't run your own household like this without going to the wall why do people think a country's economy is any different, quantitive easing...can't laught it's too tragic..
Doesn't matter who you vote for out of the three headed snake, the three main parties, there's not a fag paper between any of them, they all tell you what you want to hear to get your vote, if people are too stupid to realise the second a politician opens his mouth he's lying then more fool them.
Try not believe too much that's broadcast by the British branch of Pravda, you'll end up totally brainwashed.
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I generally support what you are saying Jamie. There are still a lot of stupid pointless organisations like OECD that employ loads of highly paid intellectuals to spout nonsense about the UK economy etc.
Theres alot of people spouting unqualified nonsense about the economy, the time the BBC gives to people with zero credentials on the matter such as on Question Time is quite alarming.
Re your earlier article about fuel price breakdown, it is interesting that the government taxes TAX itself in the form of Tax on duty !
That is the most ridiculous part of it. Apparently some EU law prevents them from charging it purely on the product due to the order of the supply chain. As ive said, an average family car doing 40mpg on an average mileage of 10k a year pays an extra £115 in additional VAT due to this practice and it inflates the pump price by 10p a litre currently.
However, the NHS is the worlds largest single employer, ie there is no other single organisation or company that employs so many people,
The NHS is certainly the largest employer in the UK with 1.4million employees but its not the biggest in the World. Wal Mart employs 2.1m and McDonalds 1.7m. The Worlds biggest employer is the US Department of Defence with 3.2million. Chinese Army, Chinese Petrol Corperation also employ more than the NHS.
But 1.4m is a remarkable number. 1 in every 44 people you meet in the UK is in the NHS' employ, thats quite staggering. But too many of it is bureaucrats and managers and its a number which should and could be made smaller.
So this will be a mamoth task, ie rooting out the highly paid non-medical managers who spend all of their time looking at car brochures and buy to let properties !
Unfortunately these frankly useless people have too many friends in high places to make it easy to kick them out.
Another obvious reason is that many people did what they were told to by the govt of the day, in the interests of their pockets and the environment they bought fuel efficient cars, the govt wanted this and they got it, the result is less fuel being sold
Agreed. The previous Government always listed fuel duty as an 'environmental measure' to reduce consumption, suggesting they'd rather us not buy any. But with the tax netting £25billion a year and being the Treasuries 5th biggest income stream, that was always hard to believe. I always wondered what they'd do when we all did as we were told and switched to economical cars, hybrids and diesels etc, surely this would result in falling fuel sales.
However that wasnt the whole story, car usage went from 25m to 33m during the years of Labour so even with less fuel being sold per customer, having another 7 million customers certainly helped the treasury by spreading it across more motorists.
Its worth noting when VAT was reduced to 15%, fuel duty rose to make sure everything became cheaper except petrol.
Edited by jamie745 on 20/10/2011 at 16:35
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I generally think the issue is that politicians in general don't have the courage to take on the "vested interests" of the public and private sectors that want to keep the situation in this (and many other) country as it currently stands. As has been said, fuel is taxed in reality for revenue-raising reasons, not as a environmental deterrent.
If that was the case, then the price of rail/bus tickets would be artificially kept low (which they've never really been) and expanded capacity massively (rail has had a boost in recent years, but nothing like what's needed, and its often wasted).
I've seen first-hand (through my job) how national/local government spending (particularly wrt the last lot) has been wasted, on worthless projects, huge overspends and bureaucratic time-wasting to justify their own existence.
IMHO, national/local government could, if done in an efficient and reasonable way for the benefit of us citizens, spend half or even a third of what they do now AND achieve better outcomes. Its just that those in charge either don't want to admit that they a) failed in the past and/or b) have no real experience in anything other than politics/government/trade unions/law/media (which aren't exactly qualifications for managing complex technical projects and work - they're just good at public speaking/debating) and have no credible solutions to our problems as a result.
I've tried (whilst I was unemployed) to get involved in trying to help my local council save money whilst improving services (this can be done, IMHO), but have met sever resistance from even Conservative councillors, who probably are mostly in category a), with some in b). They'd rather take the "easy route" and hope that muggings gives up, shrugs his shoulders and still votes them in at the next election.
Until someone in power gets their heads out of the sand, and has the courage to use the combined experience of many of us in this country itching to help out with good ideas, then we'll continue along the path we're currently heading. We have to make it cheaper to live and work in this country (reducing fuel costs would be a start) so people can move or travel to take new jobs, to compete with other nations in exporting goods and services (the only way we can really get out of this hole, not by spending more money buying Chinese-made TVs), whilst reducing our dependency on fuel and power.
We all can do our bit as well to reduce our dependency on fuel (of all kinds) - e.g. walking to the local shops instead of using the car (when appropriate), switching off lights and electrical appliances at home/work when we're not using them for extended periods (e.g. not leaving them on standby), investing in good heating controls and using them effectively over the year (I saved 15% on my gas bill by doing that) - its just that over the past 20-30 years, we, like much of the western world, have got lazy because they thought the good times would keep rolling, which was obviously wrong.
Edited by Engineer Andy on 20/10/2011 at 20:17
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NHS is the World's 4th largest employer, behind Walmart, Indian Railways and the China National Petroleum Compamy. I would have thought that the Chinese Armed Forces would have been up there but aren't or aren't in the equation.
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Ha try working in the nuclear industry...........a whole new level of bizarre government behaviour!
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I want to see...VAT to only be applied to the product, i cant see how taxing tax can be legal for a start but it artificially inflates the price needlessly.
It would be illegal for the UK government to do anything else, even if it wanted to.
Article 78 of Council Directive 2006/112/EC
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Any rules which prevent common sense being applied need to be scrapped or ignored. What idiot signed the UK's name on that piece of paper?
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Any rules which prevent common sense being applied need to be scrapped or ignored. What idiot signed the UK's name on that piece of paper?
It was Ted Heath on the instruction of the UK population.
And as it is an EU Directive, the UK government MUST impliment it in UK law, they have no choice.
Edited by AF on 27/10/2011 at 20:11
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They do have a choice. Pull out of the EU or renegotiate terms to stop their directives having anything to do with UK law. But as we saw in the commons this week if you stand up for what the public say and look to 'clean up politics' then Cameron will sack you. And as for Heath wasn't he PM about 40 years ago? Plenty has changed since then due to being branded 'outdated' so why should this stand?
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They do have a choice.
No they don't. The only choice would be to leave the EU, and there is absolutely zero chance of that happening.
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The only choice would be to leave the EU
Good. Do it. Get on with it. The public wants out of it and Cameron knows that which is why they went in Whip heavy to beat down any resistance to a referendum on it because they know the British public, if given the choice to tick a box with 'Leave EU' written beside it would do just that.
Although all we really want is to stop letting the EU interfear with British law, they shouldnt have any slightly small thing to do with us. I didnt vote for any of these bureaucrats in Brussells and the only vote any of us can make to get rid of them is for UKIP as the three (two i suppose now) main parties have bottled it when it comes to Europe. Europe will be what rips the Tory party to shreds once again as it was last time round. An electorate which wants to be free of EU Stalin-esque rule cannot vote for the main parties, none of them are willing to take on the issue. Gutless spineless and useless. They're all petrified of talking about immigration as well but thats a topic for another thread.
I dont see how unelected individuals can make directives that we then have to abide by. Who are these people and what on earth do they have to do with us? I dont see how directives signed 4 decades ago mean anything now, we've enacted and repealed plenty of legislation due to it being 'outdated' in that timeframe yet this one remains and apparently theres nothing we can do about it?
Dont buy that im afraid, i dont buy it at all. Why not just what we want and see what the EU do? What are they going to do? Send us a letter calling us naughty boys? Not invite us to the next big party? Send baliffs round to repossess Britain? Give me a break.
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