In the US it costs virtually pence (or cents) to have an oil change. My hubby almost has a cardiac arrest when he's reminded of the cost over here. He said that in Texas, it used to cost about $15 (about a tenner) to have it done at a Wall-Mart "quick-fit" type outfit and you could provide your own oil if you wanted. It was a "while you wait" service also so you could pop in when you wanted and even watch them do it.
Shame that isn't over here; it would make a mint if it was.
Patricia
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"Shame that isn't over here; it would make a mint if it was"
UK land prices, UK business rates, UK planning timetables, UK insurance costs, UK waste disposal regulations and the very ineffiecient UK distribution systems (due to applalling road congestion) make it very expensive to operate any business premises in the UK relating to waste/vehicles.
Why does everything cost more in the UK? For the above reasons.. and there are vested interests in keeping it so...
madf
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>>> He said that in Texas, it used to cost about $15 (about a tenner) to have it done at a Wall-Mart "quick-fit" type outfit and <<<
and
>>> Why does everything cost more in the UK? For the above reasons.. <<<
It costs roghly £10 to £18 for a basic good branded oil + filter service at Kwik-fit (no limit specifed) and National Tyres (5 litres max)!!
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To settle the argument we really need the opinion of a organic chemist. I thought engines lasted a long time not just because of better metal [cylinder walls and piston rings] but also because of the longer and more indestructible molecules in modern oils. I have been led to believe that these molecules gradually get denatured over time. Cheapo oils don't have them at all.
I'll stick to 10,000 plus filter [Comma 10-40 semi-synth, 1.50 per litre] plus allow at least an hour for the old sludge to drain out. My Passat is way behind the 2million Volvo at only 213,000.
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I'll stick to 10,000 plus filter [Comma 10-40 semi-synth, 1.50 per litre] plus allow at least an hour for the old sludge to drain out. My Passat is way behind the 2million Volvo at only 213,000.
John
is that Comma X-tech ?
if so, where are you getting it from, because it costs more like £2.40 a litre anywhere I can find it
Mike
I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
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"Cheapo oils don't have them at all"
Wot, no molecules? :-)
At least you're aware of the need to change it, while I fear some people just drive until something goes wrong! I assume you also check the level between refills - what worries me about 20k intervals is that those who follow them will assume that nothing has to be done in the meantime, and not many engines would go that long without consuming a significant amount of oil.
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How bout the examples on this link?
AMSOIL I believe it was who first came out with synthetic motor oils about 30 years ago:
www.performanceoiltechnology.com/oilcolorlubricati...m
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For another perspective, have a look at this link:
www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1999/v4-247...l
Can't say I'd go for this myself just yet, but it looks like an interesting development. For those who don't want to read the whole thing, here's the overall comparisons and the summary paragraph from their site. I'm pasting a few things out of order here:
"The field trials include daily commuting within municipalities as well as long distance, highway kilometers. A total of 10,000 hours in small engine trials and an additional 20,200 hours (173,000 kilometers) in automotive trials. Automotive trials were conducted in Colorado environments ranging from altitudes of 1,525 meters (5,000 feet) to 3,660 meters (12,000 feet). Ambient air temperatures ranged from ?28.9°C (?20°F) to 43.3°C (110°F) and at humidities ranging from 8% to 95%. Pre-1975 automotive applications included an air-cooled 1600 cc 1971 Volkswagen, a 1970 5 liter Ford Mustang, and a 1966 6.4 liter Ford Thunderbird. These older vehicles were selected since they lacked emission control devices such as onboard computers and catalytic converters. More recent additions include: a 1990 2.2 liter Chrysler Cirrus, a 1996 8 liter Dodge Ram truck, a 1998 5.2 liter Dodge Ram truck, a 1998 Jeep Wrangler, and a 1990 4.2 liter Chevrolet APV
Canola-based motor oils were evaluated in bench trials, small engine trials, and in automotive applications. In general, reductions in oil consumption, fuel consumption, engine operating temperatures and engine wear were universal in all engine trials.
The (vegetable-derived) oil has superior properties for flash point, fire point, viscosity index, 4 ball wear, acute toxicity (trout toxicity test), biodegradability, and coefficient of friction. The vegetable oils were inferior to petroleum for pour point (-30 deg vs. -35 deg), oxidative stability, and low temperature cranking power. More recent studies have addressed these problems and preliminary data indicate they are solvable concerns.
A canola-based motor oil was found to be a feasible alternative to conventional and synthetic petroleum motor oils. Higher oleic fatty acid content was important to functional properties but due to current costs, a conventional fatty acid profile was used in the test.
Physically, the canola motor oil was superior to a comparable petroleum oil in five of seven categories. In terms of environmental concerns, the canola-based oil met EPA standards for biodegradability, marine safety, exhaust emissions, and fuel economy.
Additional improvements in the canola-based motor oil are possible and solutions are expected to improve deficiencies to make the oil more functionally superior to current petroleum products. Cost concerns may limit functional improvements but environmental concerns may overcome some cost constraints. Improvements in functionality and environmental safety appear viable within cost constraints."
Data summary provided by US Naval Facilities Engineering Service Center.
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Bcause of this site, I have realised that I have to do certain things within a certain time, to look after my car. Which means, a big thank you to all who have been helping me.
HF
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I think you can broadly put motorists into one of two camps: those with some mechanical sympathy who know that their cars need occasional maintenance, and those who neither know nor care and who either wait for bits to drop off, or hand over all responsibility to someone else.
The main advantage of belonging to the first group is that your car will thank you by going wrong less often, and you will probably appreciate the whole process more as a result.
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JBJ,
I agree with your categories!
However, at the moment I do, I think, fall between them. I have no mechanical knowledge, at all, hence my (often stupid) questions to the site -
At the same time, I don't wish to remain in category 'B' any longer, and that is why I'm asking questions rather than waiting for bits to drop off, as you said!
This leads me to say thanks to all of the people that realise my stupidity in relation to cars, and who, nonetheless, are willing to give me help and advice. Thanks to you all :)
HF
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Your questions aren't stupid, HF. Not knowing something doesn't equate to brain power. We all had to start somewhere, and all of us with a head empty of automotive knowledge. The fact that you have the wit to ask questions puts you in category 'A'.
I would call people in category 'A' 'motorists', and category 'B' people, 'car drivers'. A big difference in my book.
Happy Christmas!
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Hi Nick,
Thank you for that, it's much appreciated.
Happy Christmas to you too!
HF
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Hello all,
The reason why most damage is done at start up is because there can be metal to metal contact between rubbing parts.
The crankshaft and camshaft bearings in particular are designed to run *without* the shaft touching the bearings - but only when the shaft gets up to speed. This hydrodynamic lubrication depends only on having lots of oil in the gap, and having the shaft spinning quickly - the oil pressure makes virtually no difference!
When you are running the engine quickly, there should be zero wear of these parts, the only contact occuring when you start or stop the engine.
If you end up with particles in the oil which are comparable in size to the shaft / bearing gap, the you get abrasive wear - this is the type of wear that you avoid with frequent oil changes. Crank and cam bearing failure is therefore usually associated with either frequent starting and stopping or neglect on modern engines.
The piston / bore lubrication is more complex because of the intermittent motion and sealing requirements. The stopping and starting, high loading, and the corrosive nature of blowby gases conspire to make the top of the bore wear more heavily than the rest of it.
In some cases, the engine may appear to use no oil - this is usually the result of piston blowby products replacing the oil which is burnt. If the piston rings did remove every last trace of oil, they would seize up themselves - some must be burnt each time the cylinder fires. So, after some mileage, although the dipstick level looks good, it's not all oil!
number_cruncher
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So, in the light of the above - advice please...
New Hyundai Trajet Diesel auto coming next week. I expect it will do about 10,000miles pa. It will be serviced every 10,000miles or 12 months but I understand and follow the recommedation to change oil more frequently.
After running it in for say 3,000miles, what programme would you recommend for oil changes and what type of oil? Synthetic or semi-synthetic. And what about Millers stuff - what does that do?
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Espada,
As your new car is under warranty, the advice I would give is to meet, or improve upon your manufacturer's stated interval and lubricant quality.
While there is nothing I love more than doing engineering experiments :-), finding the limits of oil change intervals on my own car certainly isn't one of them.
How many £50 oil changes equals the cost of a new engine?
number_cruncher
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"£50 oil changes"
Or £15 at National Tyre! (Semi-synth, admittedly, but OK for most of us, especially if changed more frequently as a result).
I'm not disagreeing, I hasten to add - even at £50, it's cheap insurance.
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J,
I think insurance is a good analogy to use.
If you change the oil and filter yourself, there are at least two big advantages, and some smaller ones:
1) A lot of garages have but the one oil tank - everything gets a drink of the same. By doing it yourself, you are control of the quality of the oil and the filter.
2) By doing it yourself, you are in control of the quality of the workmanship. Loose or overtightened sump plugs, old washers being re-used, and incorrect oil levels are not unheard of.
3) The cash you save, you may choose to fritter on more expensive oil, or invest wisely in fine wine :-)
4) Getting under the car occaisonally allows you to assess its condition independently, and spot incipient faults and failures.
number_cruncher
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Quite agree. I do use National Tyre when I'm in a hurry, but I do prefer to do it myself for the same reasons as you - even though it usually works out more expensive! Changing your own spark plugs (or at least inspecting them) is another innocent pleasure that provides a useful confidence check.
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"..manufacturers have de-specified the permissible amount of degradation and contamination of the oil"
Sounds as though you know something, HJ. A scandal in the making? I think we should be told!
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>A scandal in the making?
Probably not, given that it was the manufacturers who provided the original specification. They're perfectly at liberty to change their minds as to what quantity of swarf they are prepared to accept in the oil in their cars.
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... quantity of swarf they are prepared to accept in the oil ...
swarf?
- how does that get past the filter?
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that needed a smiley too, sorry!
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"They're perfectly at liberty to change their minds"
Indeed, but I'm sure they'd prefer it wasn't common knowledge that they had changed them to ensure that your engine wears out more quickly!
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For info folks, National Tyres have changed their policy on cheap oil+filter changes. In order to qualify for the £15 semi-synth offer you now have to present a voucher from the newspaper, but they accepted a print out of the advert on their website from me. I assume this applies to other special offers as well.
Ed.
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For info folks, National Tyres have changed their policy on cheap oil+filter changes. In order to qualify for the £15 semi-synth offer you now have to present a voucher from the newspaper, but they accepted a print out of the advert on their website from me. I assume this applies to other special offers as well.
The ad in my paper says
£15 Hypergrade
£20 Semi Synth
£25 Fully Synth
Up to 2300cc and max of 5 litres
Halfords again selling Fully Synth 5litres 5W40 £29.99 buy one get one free. Offer ends 5/9/04.
Also 580l roof box for £190.
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A loss-leader no more, then. Shame.
Thanks for the Halfords tip, though, Henry. I just might pay them a visit...
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