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I dont have a particular dislike of Skoda's, a friend of mine had an Octavia for some time it was perfectly ok, but i generally have never been fans of them. Im sure they're perfectly fine but i just dont want one.
As a principle ive always favoured Ford, my Dad had the old Cortina's and Granada's and even a Sierra XR4i, i learned to drive in an Escort, owned a mk1 Mondeo but i have to say i feel let down by recent Fords. When my 406 got written off i went out and got a Focus Zetec at the back end of last year, in the assumption i'd be experiencing this drivers car for the common man stuff but on the whole i find it very ordinary. Its a perfectly fine car, does most things perfectly ok, but it has no stand out points to it. I feel Ford have skimped with the equipment on newer cars, whatever happened to the Ghia X's where you'd get all the leather and toys of a BMW for a third of the price? I know Ford arent exactly rich right now, and have been stretching their resources somewhat, to the point where the new range of cars somewhat flatters to deceive. The Mondeo looks stunning on the outside, but underneath its still all old bits which Ford had in their cars 10 years ago.
Although i'll give them credit for the new Fiesta, thats a cracking little car.
But because of the Focus' lack of anything interesting, i sold it last week.
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It's taken me nearly 50 years but I've finally shaken off the old dogmatic prejudice about car brands - however logical the "good vs bad" brand conclusion is at a point in time, it doesn't last forever.
Back in the '60s I concluded that Ford were better than BMC, which was a worthy conclusion but it took me a while in the '80s to realise that Vauxhall made better FWD cars than Ford so switched my allegiance to them for 20 years. Since then I've overcome my post-WW2 prejudice against Japanese brands and bought a Subaru. More recently though they've lost the plot and I've discovered that the Koreans are already where the Japanese were not so long ago so I've bought a Hyundai.
I've long known of the music-hall jokes about Skodas but that goes back a long way and frankly I don't think the Ford, Hillman, Austin & Morris models of that same era were any better!
Skoda are the only VAG brand that I'd consider - even VW are poor value for money and Audi VFM isobscenely low, but no worse than BMW etc.
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I think you should preface with the statement "In my opinion".
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Skodas are very popular with local taxi drivers for their durability and economy. Also Skoda dealers and customer care tend to be better than Ford. However, as cars there is little in it as both Ford and Skoda have dramatically improved their quality in the last two decades.
As for the comment about an Audi A3 being uncomfortable, my dad had one as a company car and the seats were like park benches.
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Skoda seem to have something of a split customer base nowadays, with the Fabia being perceived as a bit of an old dear's car, the bog-standard Octavia and the Superb being the fodder of the taxi brigade, and the hot Octavia being a popular alternative to the dearer German hot saloon efforts (and quite popular as a Police traffic car, marked or unmarked, down here in Hampshire!). Either way it's generally accepted that you're getting well-built VAG quality for less cash, which can't be bad. Current marketing efforts with the Fabia might find more interest from youthful buyers if it goes to plan.
I'd have to say that I would never buy a new Ford. Having spent a week driving the current Fiesta on two occasions it's fine as a cheap & cheerful disposable second hand buy, but not good enough to be throwing new car money at. Unless of course the only alternative was something from the hideously cheap and nasty Vauxhall range! :-/
Edited by happy polo on 18/04/2011 at 00:15
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I think that Skoda offer good quality car's that may not be the most exciting to drive, where Ford offer low quality car's with pathetic interior's but have a 'reasonable drive'. I say who care's I mean really how many people out there honestly take their diesel Mondeos' up to the mountains for a hilll climb at the weekend??
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Hmm...I consider myself relatively impartial where brands are concerned. My wife's last car was a 2006 Octavia Estate. That was on a work lease but we chose it. We have replaced it with a Ford S-max. Both diesel. I drive a 2006 Seat Leon. No doubt about it, the interior quality of the Skoda was superior to the Ford and the Leon. But there is much more to a car than the "perceived quality" and feel of the interior. It is important, because it's what you touch every day. We chose the S-max because no other manufacturer offered the same combination of space, practicality and driving experience. The drivetrain of the Ford is far better than the Skoda and the common rail diesel far more refined than the PD unit we had. However, I don't agree with HJ in his assessment of modern ford interiors. The top half of the dash is fine, quality even. The bottom half is cheap and nasty, including the glovebox which drops open like an 80s Austin Metro I once owned. These things, of course, have little bearing on living with the car day to day. But they do matter. More to some than others. I wouldn't hesitate in owning a Skoda after our experience with the Octavia, but wouldn't go out of my way to buy one. At teh end of the day Seat, Skoda, VW, Audi are the same bits in different packaging. Some bits good, some not so good. People seem to think VWs are overpriced and over hyped but forget the Skoda offers the same engines, gearboxes etc. etc. and similar reliability problems. I intend to keep the S-Max 6 yrs, maybe my opinion will change in 4 yrs time!
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I'm not too sure, I remember the days as other posters have pointed out where Ford's Ghia trim would give you all the bells and Whistles for a fraction of BMW's price for example.,I believe that now Skoda are like that and Ford have lost it ( crap interiors on most new Fords). With a Superb for example you get more legroom than an S-Class and all the toys for less.
I think that I would rather have the equivalent Skoda over the equivalent Ford any day of the week.
Edited by 159man on 18/04/2011 at 22:55
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I have to agree Fords new interiors are poor. What happened to cars like the Mondeo Ghia X which would have full leather and wood etc, like a Jaguar for a quarter of the money. Even the little Fiesta 1.25 zetec had a Ghia X trim with all the leather etc. I think i said in an earlier post Ford have skimped on their newer cars, they've been stretching their overdraft for some time and it shows now.
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Completely agree now Ford's Ghia trim consist's of ghastly fake wood and lots of shiny plastics... really poor, Skoda do interiors so much better as well as engine range.
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Really have to disagree, the unlamented Yeti's interior was a haphazard mix of ill-fitting bits adorned with pieces of stick on bling and storage boxes that felw open at the first sight of a bump in the road.
Not a nice place to be at all and rattled like mad for the entire 9 months I had the thing.
I have no benchmark whether this represents a cheap Audi or cheap VW but for me it was just plain cheap.
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Jamie,
Ever tightening safety and emissions requirements has pused up the cost of producing cars, but the actual sale prices have not risen commensurately. In the past, Ford cut costs by dropping cheap, nasty engines into the bay, and spending the savings on the cabin. That option is no longer available. The 'titanium' range (apart from the silly moniker) has a very nice interior-but cheap it aint.
No free lunches!
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Ive been in a Titanium Mondeo, as a taxi, and its nice enough i suppose with the chrome effect dash and nice radio etc but i still prefer the mk2 Ghia X and they actually had quite nice engines, the V6 in the Ghia X was and still is an excellent engine. Ford used to be very good at making a cheap car feel expensive, i feel they've lost that knack. Ford advertise proudly that their purchase prices arent increasing, but as a result their quality is suffering. Yes they might be having to focus more on Euro N Cap ratings (the old Mondeo's scored poorly in crash tests) and insane emissions legislations and i feel its a trend which will continue across most manufacturers, where they used to be able to sell us a nice car to drive and be in, now they'll just sell us a piece of effecient technology with not much else.
I'll tell you what its like, its like when companies push their eco friendly packaging, but the iPhone inside it is a great piece of kit. Its like modern cars are the iPhone, but the eco friendly cheap packaging is the interior.
We're driving packaging!
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The V6 may have been ok (albeit thirsty!). The CVH, zetec petrols and the endura and duratorq diesels ranged from barely tolerable to uninspiring. I've never been impressed with Ford engines, they tended to be thirstier and less refined than their rivals. I drove a 2008 1.8 tddi for a while and was apalled. Cold starting was reluctant, idle obnoxiously loud, terrible lag on the accelerator actuator which made smooth gear changing hard. All or nothing turbo response. Death shudder on shutdown. Horrid unit. It was less pleasant to driver than the bargain basement VW SDI engine which didn't deliver much power, but at least delivered it in an agreeable fashion.
Did leave the design team with some dough to build fine Chassis and smart interiors though.
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At the time when Ford were a long way behind in engine design,15 odd years ago, petrol could still be measured in sterling and Ford's more efficient rivals were considerably more expensive and rivals in the same price bracket were churning out nasty plastic rubbish like the original Vectra and the old Laguna, and put side by side, the Mondeo was a class apart. The Mondeo was the working mans car, but now things like 3 Series and audi's are no longer exclusive, they're more widespread than daylight. I agree Ford's engines have been behind their competitors but in terms of the overall package it never really mattered. Now they may have engines to match rivals in terms of economy and emissions etc, but the old Ford faithful are buying Skoda's and BMW's instead. The Nissan Qashqai outsold the Ford Mondeo last year for goodness sake. I feel Ford has lots its core buyer base and has lost touch with why people bought Fords in the first place.
Edited by jamie745 on 19/04/2011 at 19:03
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"The Nissan Qashqai outsold the Ford Mondeo last year for goodness sake."
That makes me want to weep. That must be why Ford felt the need to add the Kuga to it's range. I've never understood why the crossover fad made it across the atlantic. I suppose there are lot of people who can't shrug off the 'gotta have a 4X4' mentality because they live on a country lane but can't afford to run a proper one, nor have any use for a half baked one. But that's a whole new thread.
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I feel Ford has lots its core buyer base and has lost touch with why people bought Fords in the first place.
+1
This sentence sum's up why I started the thread a few weeks ago.
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I agree with the whole fine Chassis thing as this is true Ford's are good driver's cars but the interior of the Mondeo against the Superb is really awful. The Fordd has cheap shiny materials on the front of the dashboard and even worse materials further down, in general not a nice place to be on long journeys. The Superb I think has an excellent interior. Soft touch materials on top with a real solid feeling, lovely place to spend time in.
The same goes for the Fabia, lovely interior that is functional, the Fiesta is such a mess of a center console with buttons everywhere and just plain ugly.
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Things like the crossover and Soft Roader etc are popular. I'd never try and ban anybody from having a specific sort of car, because that would be stupid, someone might just buy something like a Ford Kuga or Chevrolet Captiva just because they like it, but most of the pseudo-4x4s are nothing more than tall, expensive hatchbacks. Most dont even offer 7 seats and most cant do off road, so its like a Focus on stilts. From that perspective its hard to see why anybody would want one, but some of them are quite nice i suppose. But the BMW X6 is a disgusting blot on humanity.
But thanks to the +1 at my Ford comment. Ive been trying to put into a sentance exactly what i dont like about modern Fords and i finally managed it LOL!
People bought the old Fords, even back to the Cortina because they were affordable, semi reliable, nice places to sit which could be repaired with a brick if it went wrong, and the only alternatives were 3 times more expensive, but things have changed.
Ford always used to offer a "hot" version, fun performance in which the blue collar worker could take down the big boys. Like the Sierra XR4i, the Escort XR3i and so on, lots of power, in a straight line, cheap as chips, lovely. Ford dont even attempt anything like that now, barring the Focus ST, the trend seems to have died with the Mondeo ST220.
Ford are now at a stage where i would probably take a Peugeot 308 over a Fiesta or a Focus. And what does that say about the state of the world?
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The ford dash fascias do tend to feel cheap. It sounded frivolous so I didn't mention it but it does make a difference to the feel of the cabin.
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The Ford I have now (MK2 Focus) is one of the worst cars I've owned for refinement. Noisy engine, cheap tatty interior and a lack of a general quality feel. Light-years behind the 1990s Nissans for example, and no better than a Korean car (worse than some of the newer ones). The MK3 Eco model is even worse -- out and out cheap-feeling.
Not especially reliable either it has to be said -- owned less than a year (it's four years old) and have had trouble with the clutch master cylinder and corroded core plugs.
Cheaply made, mass-market sludge. Any number of cars are better quality.
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Which begs the question, why does the Focus (and the Mondeo, Fiesta etc) constantly receive such high praise from professional reviewers? Is it an industry bias? Is it pre-prejudices (give a reviewer who doesnt like Renault and surprise surprise he gives it a low score) is it the fact the reviewers concentrate too much on the "driving feel" instead of the rest of the package which the ordinary motorist is more interested in. Read a review of things like the 308 and the Astra and they all say the same thing its "not in the same league as the Focus".
Is it a simple case of they dont know what they're talking about? Like they do nothing but rave about the Focus yet its been described here as on a par with Korean tin on wheels. And albiet ive met many people who own/did own a Focus, ive never heard anybody thrilled with it. They all say "its ok i suppose" unless its the ST.
My main criticism with the one i had was that it just didnt feel like a quality product and seemed to do nothing badly, but nothing outstandingly either. I thought i was the minority.
Maybe not.
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Completely agree with the above statement. I am sick and tired of reading such fantastic review's of the Mondeo,Focus and the Fiesta. I'm sure they drive well but that is not what they are made for, they are not performance vehicles bar the ST and RS of course. I think the interior of all 3 of the above car's is poor especially the Fiesta. I also think that Ford engine's in general are poor especially the petrol one's. The 1.6 TDCI is the only reasonable engine they make in my opinion.
I just do not understand why certain magazines rave about them, they are not THAT good...
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I think, when looking at small cars or small family cars, what matters most to the people likely to buy them is how practical is it? how reliable is it going to be? how easy on the wallet will it be and most importantly how much value for money is it? Yes it being nice to drive is important, but theres many facets to that, like being in the Fiesta if you cant find the button you require because its too much of a mish mash then that doesnt make for a pleasant driving experience, ergonomics of controls are a vital part of driving which Ford has overlooked, car reviewers spend a day with the car throwing it round a country lane i think and if its fun they deem it a good car, if its not then its a bad car.
But what annoys me the most, is the reviews on the Focus' key rivals, take the 308 for example, head on across to Autocar online and in the "against" column they say "doesnt drive like a focus, devoid of driving feel" yet in the same review they praise its quietness and refined smooth engines and its good comfortable ride. Who buys a mid range family car primarily for its "driving feel"? Who?!!?!?
For me, the only reason you'd walk into a Ford dealership and buy a Focus or Mondeo etc brand new is not because it drives spectacularly, but because you probably didnt try anything else. And with Ford being such a go-to name for anybody looking for reasonably priced decent transport i feel thats contributed to why we see so many of them.
Im not saying they're BAD cars, far from it, but they're just not the mercurial cut above the rest which the magazines constantly tell us.
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@Jamie745
I think we are both on similar page here. I too feel that the driving experience of a diesel hatchback doesn't really matter that much. Autocar do test each car as though it's a racing car and it's just annoying that's why it is class leader according to them. Having read their reviews on the Peugeot 508 and Alfa 159 I just had had enough terrible review's slatng the 508 because it didn't handle like a Ford
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Who buys a mid range family car primarily for its "driving feel"? Who?!!?!?
Judging by the sales figures, quite a few people.
For me, the only reason you'd walk into a Ford dealership and buy a Focus or Mondeo etc brand new is not because it drives spectacularly, but because you probably didnt try anything else. And with Ford being such a go-to name for anybody looking for reasonably priced decent transport i feel thats contributed to why we see so many of them.
Ah, yes, pity all those poor unenlightened unwashed masses... Sorry, but that's complete rot and pure badge snobbery.
Apologies for the interruption, you may now continue congratulating each other on your own unique and refined tastes.
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Badge snobbery? Ive owned four Fords and two Peugeots. I'd hardly call myself a badge snob somehow. If anything thats the polar opposite of the point, its that Ford are painted out to be this magnificent class leader for midprice cars which they just arent anymore. 10 years ago? Yeah. 15? Definately? 20? Undisputably. Now? Not a chance.
Let me guess, you shelled out over the odds on a new Mondeo or Focus and refuse to admit its not meeting expectations?
Just as i expected, dare to question the status quo of "Ford Focus is best" and you get struck down with furious anger by brainwashed masses, all running towards you with flaming torches. I knew it wouldnt take long for someone to pipe up with a sarcastic tone and say "judging by sales figures you're wrong" oh..HA oh no!! You're hurting me!! My sides!!! so funny!!
Oh give me a break. So you're telling me i have no choice but to like things which sells in great numbers?
May as well shut the forum down now. Clear off everybody! turn off your computers! This genius has just solved the world for us! Everybody buy a Ford Focus because "everybody else does". Hey its sold in great numbers! It must be awesome!
Thanks for that mate, no need for car reviews now.
Edited by jamie745 on 21/04/2011 at 13:43
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Car reviews are often depressingly similar. Most reviewers are not technically trained and rely on the PR guff from the company representative to pad out the article. My dad had a focus-it was ok. But it was not live up the the breathless exultations of jounalists.
I don't get the fuss about Alfas. Mechanically unremarkable, front grille design copied off a '73 Pontiac Bonneville, and they get praised for their innovative design and Italian passion. Whoopee! Alfa have finally learned how to make cars that actually start on demand and don't rust away in front of you. 20 years after everyone else mastered the art. Lets buy one!!
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unthrottled, we'd best ask our good friend in the above post if its ok to criticise Alfa's or if they've sold too many units that it is forbidden to question them?
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cat, pigeons, etc.
You can like whatever you want mate, though why not leave each to his own? If you don't like Fords, then don't buy one, simple.
I've owned Audi (x2), VW, Merc and Ford (x2). All perfectly good. The Alfa 159 is a beautiful car for example, and maybe I'll get to own one one day.
Let's face it, these days any mass produced car is pretty much the same as any other.
Manufacturers used to only provide different trim levels to suit the image of the customer. VAG stepped that up a gear by providing three entire makes - Skoda, VW, Audi. Skodas for the customer who wants to feel they got a bargain, VW's for the 'comfortable middle' and Audi for those who want to feel a cut above. The difference is still hardly more than trim levels.
Either way the customer wil be happily convinced his choice is the best, meanwhile VAG cashes in regardless. Genius. Now copied by Toyota/Lexus, Fiat/Alfa, Peugeot/Citroen, Renault/Dacia, GM/Saab (now sold), Ford/Volvo (again, sold), etc etc, etc.
Edited by ddr on 21/04/2011 at 16:09
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Hold on here what I'm trying to say is that Ford's are not as good as they are made out to be by the media, poor interior's, poor engine's and all so boring except obviously the ST/RS.
Explain where the 'badge snobbery' comes from?
@unthrottled, have you ever owned an Alfa? Try driving something like a 166 with a V6 or a 147 GTA, and you might see how special they really are. Secondly all this typical 'Alfa's are so unreliable' is just rubbish these day's. I admit the 156/147 weren't the best but the new Alfa's for the most part are properly built.
Edited by 159man on 21/04/2011 at 15:05
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What makes a 166 with a V6 'special' , whereas a 5 series with an I6 is only ordinary-apart from being less ubiquitous?
I agree, they're decent cars, but the media hyperbole suggests they are in a league of their own-which they aren't. Nomt rubbishing them.
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What makes a 166 with a V6 'special' , whereas a 5 series with an I6 is only ordinary-apart from being less ubiquitous?
I agree, they're decent cars, but the media hyperbole suggests they are in a league of their own-which they aren't. Nomt rubbishing them.
A V6 is an out-of-balance space saver - that's the only reason they were ever built.
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A V6 is an out-of-balance space saver
With DOHC , it doesn't even do that. Two huge cylinder heads perched on top of the block making the engine high and wide. To keep the width down, the engine tends to be made oversquare which is undesirable. The I6 is long but the single head and exhaust manifold are a bonus. Height can be reduced by canting the engine. All serious 6 pots are inline.
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Go and have a look at one somewhere honestly, something like a 2004 166 3.2 V6 manual in Black with beige leather. Something like this
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2337171.htm
Compare that to the equivalent 5 series from that age group maybe a 530i. That's a nice car and I am a fan of them but they are nothing compared to the 166. Here's a question which car would you rather wake up to every morning a 166 like the one above or a 530i?
I would take the 166 every day of the week. Look at the interior even, if that isn't enough check out Clarkson's review of the facelift 166 V6.
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I dont like Alfa Romeo's because in my opinion they look disgusting. That "iconic" front, to me just looks awful.
Everyone who has one bangs on about how they are "special" and "make you feel different" and the likes of Jeremy Clarkson tell us we should all buy an Alfa because it will break down and make your life more "interesting." Im sorry but that may be feasible for him but its not for the rest of us. And im not slating Top Gear as its the finest show the BBC still make but he couldnt sell me an Alfa if he tried.
So if i were given the choice between a 530 or a 166, the answer would have to be none of the above.
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It's funny I have heard many adjectives used over the years to descibe Alfa Romeos but disgusting is a new one.
Fair play.
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Well i have to say Alfa is one make of car you can spot a mile off just from looking at it, where other makes blur into one, but that doesnt mean it looks nice LOL!
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Funny, I never thought of the Alfa 8C Competizione as being disgusting either... ah well each to his/her own...
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Ive seen the 8C, it looks ok i suppose but the front reminds me of a Triumph TR5. Or a Ferrari California. Which i dont like either.
Ive never liked any Italian cars. If i was looking for a car like that i'd probably go and buy an SLK or a Chevrolet Corvette. Now i'd never be able to recommend an American car to anybody, as their ropey build quality, poor engineering design and just the fact to own in Britain they dont make any sense and the accountant in all of us would have to opt for something else, but if you told me to go and buy a car to stir my soul, for the passion etc, which are words often linked ot Alfa's and why people buy them, it'd have to be a Corvette or a Dodge Charger or something.
But again, i'd never recommend them to anyone as a machine or a car to own and use, as theres so much wrong with them. Usually wheelie bin interiors let them down.
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The vette will embarress cars twice its price-not just in a straight line either. The ones of old handled like dogs, and couldn't stop but the C6 is a different breed. It's still pretty much the most fuel efficient (least inefficient) super car around. All with only 16 valves and 1 camshaft. Beautiful machine!
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See that is what would tempt me to part with money. The fact you can take down £300,000 supercars in a rugged American thunderbolt which is simplicity in itself. To buy a car like that it needs to stir something special in you to tempt you to part with money, an Alfa might do that for alot of people, as theres no sensible reason to buy one of those either. And with me things like a Corvette would just be a cut above.
But Italian cars get called "beautiful" and American ones often "vulgar" and thats kind of true i suppose, most American cars are made with a big aggressive face on them but that would be more my thing.
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So the 8C isn't pretty but a Dodge Charger and Corvette is? Right that makes sense...
I reckon a Dodge Charger would actually be quite dissapointing to own...
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I said myself it wouldnt be good to own. I admitted that. But i didnt think that was the point. I thought we were discussing cars which we like and would want for no other real reason than for how it looked and makes you feel.
And nor did i say the Charger was pretty. I said it looked better.
Edited by jamie745 on 21/04/2011 at 20:24
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Surely then a Alfa 8C would be top of the list, it would be on mine, I mean look at it
http://www.alfaromeopic.com/2010-alfa-romeo-8c-spider-blog-information
What a machine, again imagine having that on the driveway every morning!
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