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Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - Eater Sundae

I’d like some advice on the “real world” expected fuel consumption of semi automatic cars, when operating as automatics.

I need to give a bit of background first, so please bear with me.

As I understand it (from reading stuff on the internet) “official” fuel consumptions, as quoted by manufacturers, is determined in a very specific way. In summary, first they run the car up to speed on a track, and then freewheel to a stop. The time/distance to come to a stop gives them information on the forces slowing the car down (a combination of aerodynamic drag and mechanical friction). They then put the car on a rolling road and “drive” a series of specified routines – accelerating, decelerating, cruising etc to match a specific requirement. Also during the test they measure the actual CO2 emitted. They then include the weight, the aerodynamic drag and the mechanical friction losses to determine how this would have affected the CO2 figures if actually moving and not just on a rolling road. From this, they work out the fuel consumption during the test, in terms of the chemical make up of the fuel and the quantity of CO2 produced. At least that’s my understanding of the basic principle.

Now, on to automatic cars. Conventional automatics, ie those with torque convertors, have always shown worse fuel consumption than equivalent manual cars. They also have higher CO2 emissions and therefore pay more for the licence. I have assumed that this is due to a combination of losses through the torque convertor, usually less available gears (therefore more of a compromise in choosing the best one for any particular operating condition) and the timing of when to make a change of gear not being as good as a human making the same decision.

The semi automatic type of gearbox, ie more like a manual gearbox but with servo operated clutch and gear change, has become more common. (There are cheapish ones eg like on the Toyota Aygo, or more expensive double clutch ones like the VW-Audi Group’s DSG box). They make great play of being very efficient. They typically have the same CO2 figures and fuel consumptions as the manual versions, in fact VW claim improvements with their DSG. This gives them a strong selling point over conventional auto boxes.

Now, this is where we come back to the official fuel consumption tests, as described above. When doing a rolling road test, all the driver of the semi-auto car would need to do is to drive it like a manual, changing gears at exactly the same speed as he does in the fully manual version. If he does this, then the results will be identical to the manual version. This is what I presume they do. They do not run the tests as fully automatic. What would happen if he left it in auto, and allowed the car to make its own changes? There wouldn’t be any torque converter losses, but what about the cars ability to choose when to change gear, for example.

We are used to understanding that real world fuel consumption figures can be worse than the official figures for manual cars, so we can factor it in when choosing cars. But what about semi automatics? Do we get an extra hit on fuel consumption if we drive in full automatic mode? If so, someone intending to drive their car as a full automatic would be wrong to compare the official figures from a conventional automatic with those from a semi-automatic, as the semi-automatic would have an unfair advantage if it had been tested when driven manually. Is there anyone out there who knows what effect there is on the typical real world fuel consumption when operating as an auto in comparison to when they drive the same car as a manual?

Thanks for your patience in reading this far.

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - gordonbennet

Interesting post.....torque converter auto's are heavier on fuel, but i'd disagree that the possibility of being in the wrong gear would have too much to do with it. The ones i've driven most, albeit larger engined and older simpler designed were in most cases well sorted with hydraulics governing most changes, simply applying more pedal/revs would cause changes as if you were switching it yourself.

I can't comment too much on newer electronic stuff, as i've managed to avoid owning such things like the plague and will continue to do so for as long as possible, but for driveability and pleasure they are still the auto of choice for me.

I think automated manuals are the gearbox from hell. However for people who can't drive, use a clutch, or have no idea how to use a gearbox for either smooth progress or economy they may well be a good thing. The sheer displeasure of trying to drive the things in traffic or manoeuvre them in tight situations maybe doesn't get noticed.

I have driven automated manul trucks for hundreds of thousands of miles, and they are fine when making normal progress, but like cars so equipped they get confused when approaching junctions etc where deceleration will be interrupted by resuming power. This nearly always results in the box selecting a gear several too low which sends the revs up too high and results in several rapid (in automanual terms.;) changes and resulting loss of momentum.

This sounds like nit picking, but multiply this by the hundreds of such incidents in a several hundred mile mixed road journey, and you have wasted time, momentum and engine revs which all adds up to fuel wasted and time lost.

I've driven my regular vehicles in manual override for years, and without fail have beaten the fuel consumptions of those (the majority) left in full auto, not the least because with forward planning there is less lost momentum, and the revs can be kept at sensible levels, lower end of torque band, at all times, much depends on the engine in question as with cars.

I will say at this point that Volvo trucks who have been offering various versions of automated manual box since before 1993 when i had my first one stand head and shoulders above the competition in this respect, others are fine as far as they go on the road once up and running but with extremely rare exceptions the Volvo box will be in the correct gear at the right time every time, never needed to override to make it work...i'd have to look up how to do it again, not a situation with any other make.

As for official fuel consumption figures, best taken with a large pinch of salt, like anything that comes out of a politicians mouth.

Sorry, gorn on a bit again.

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - daveyjp

We've had 2 smarts with auto clutch, 2 DSG Audis and a torque converter auto diesel X type with tiptronic manual if required - all five had 6 ratios.

The published urban and combined figures were similar to what I could achieve and apart from the first smart (which didn't have an auto option) I drove in auto 99% of the time.

Manufacturers can tune the auto box to change at the optimal time to maximise fuel economy without compromising progress, or causing labouring etc etc so the average user should be able to achieve the figures as the most economical gear will always be selected.

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - Eater Sundae

Thank you to both of you for sharing your experiences. My only experiences of autoboxes is with hire cars in America. I sort of fancy trying auto for my next car. However, I'd also like a low CO2,low tax car. The low CO2 cars all seem to be semi-auto. From what I've read,the only one which is OK to drive seems to be the VAG DSG box.

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - blindspot

had a corsa c diesel auto, that did more mpg than a corsa c diesel manual. but now drive a corsa b auto, because i prefer that despite low mpg

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - Avant

"I think automated manuals are the gearbox from hell."

I agree completely, GB, especially in the case of a Corsa courtesy car (the term 'courtesy' is used loosely) which gave a sickening lurch every time it changed gear. However the VAG DSG is an honourable exception, especially as it seems to have been gradually improved, and in the latest version in my new Octavia it is as good as any full automatic, without the consumption penalties of the torque converter.

I'm no technician but I think that last point is fairly well established in real life as well as in the published figures (which two things don't always coincide).

Eater Sundae - welcome to the forum.

Edited by Avant on 09/04/2011 at 00:14

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - colinh

I had a Golf 2.0TDI DSG for 3 years - 70,000 km at overall 5.6 l/100km (50.4 mpg) - official figure combined 6.0 l/100km - rural/motorway use probably helped

Semi-automatics. Real fuel consumption - SteveLee

The term semi-automatic has traditionally been used to mean a manual car with an automatic clutch (whether torque converter or centrifugal.) I think the OP is referring to robotised manuals which are more fuel efficient than traditional autos. Of course all cars that are sold as automatics are not forced to hold certain gears during the fuel consumption tests as not all cars had this facility, so the official MPG figures for autos are (often wildly) optimistic, during particular test conditions, the auto will be allowed to slip into top and cruise whilst the equivalent manual will be force to scream along in third. The ignorant press of course often spout nonsense such as “the automatic BMW is now more fuel efficient than the manual” which it is not. Time we updated the way cars are tested for fuel efficiency.