Noticed this in Road Vehicles Lighting Regs 1989.
Never noticed this before and never actually seen it on a vehicle either,
It is in Part 2, section 13 para 2 (e)
Here is the gist.
13.-(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), no vehicle shall be fitted with a lamp which automatically emits a flashing light.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply in respect of-
(a) a direction indicator;
(b) a headlamp fitted to an emergency vehicle;
(c) a warning beacon or special warning lamp;
(d) a lamp or illuminated sign fitted to a vehicle used for police purposes;
all fair enough then one gets
(e) a green warning lamp used as an anti-lock brake indicator;
Pardon? What's all that about then?
in case you donn't believe me the link is here >>
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_3.htm#(Tii)i4filamentlamp
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FiF, the fatal flaw in your thinking is that our law-makers are sane.
I put a tardy reply to your post in the Invisible Morons thread earlier, in case you missed it.
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FiF
Sorry, new also to me. I have had a look at Explanation Section which comes at the rear of all SI's and no mention. I left the job in 1987 so when the new SI was being trotted out for information before coming into law it would be accompanied by a Reg by Reg breakdown that I have no seen.
The only thing that springs to my mind is that it may be somewhere in the Con and Use regs (will check later) there is an intended intention to warn others that ABS activating on the vehicle in front similar to the present warning brake lights.
DVD
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The only thing that springs to my mind is that it may be somewhere in the Con and Use regs (will check later) there is an intended intention to warn others that ABS activating on the vehicle in front similar to the present warning brake lights.
It sort of makes sense in a way. It would be a benefit to know if someone is standing on the anchors as opposed to just feathering the pedal to slow slightly as you could then respond accordingly. It would certainly have avoided my first accident where I didn't realise just how hard the car infront was braking until it was too late. Maybe rather than just ABS a secondary warning light for >75% brake application (or even >50% at speed?) should be fitted? Or even something simple like automatic hazards in an emergency stop condition.
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i have always thought that this would be a good use of the LED brake lights that are commonly seen on the spoilers or rear windows of cars. The harder you are braking, the more LEDs light up.
I'd better hurry up and copyright that idea.
Jonathan
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The idea has already been thought of, Jonathan, but never put into practice.
You'll keep buying the lottery tickets, I'm afraid.
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FiF
Sorry
pm spent trawling through Con & Use Amendment Regs and RV Lighting Amendment Regs and a plethora of EEC Regs and I am still no wiser.
Try going amongst these on the net and it may be disclosed why Plod does not always have the answer. Its a mine field. Why the Legislators do not just have a single ordinance on a subject and then replace it with any amendment instead of having to go from one Reg to another and also incorporate EEC Regs at the same time.
My brain hurts...
DVD
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Re the flashing light querry.I bought a red rear light for my daughters push byke, this type of lamp could be switched to either flash or constant. in the instructions it stated in large letters it is illegal to use the flashing mode in the uk.Even so I see frequently cyclist with rear lamps that flash. oh I here you say you actually see cyclist with lights!!
chris
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There is a bit of confusion regarding the use of LED lights on bicycles. It is illegal to use an LED as the sole lighting on a bike, but in the last few years the law was changed to allow their use as supplimentary lighting provided a BS approved light was also used.
Apparantly an LED is always in flashing mode. Even when it appears to show a constant light, the flashing is to fast to notice with the naked eye.
I would think that most police are so greatful to see a light of any description on a bicycle that they would not bother if it conformed to the exact letter of the law or not.
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There is a lot of confusion about LED's even amongst informed cyclists who want to obey the law, basically the regs are always half a decade behind the technology. LED's that visibly flash are illegal attached to the bike, but OK on clothing helmet or whatever.
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Agree with that, Simon. Flashing LED's make a cyclist infinitely more visible than a constant light.
This little idea is a great step forward for safety, but it's illegal. The problem is that legislation for this wouldn't generate any tax.............
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Not sure that would work - you need something obvious from a distance. You might not be able to see from 10 car lengths how hard a car is braking, but you'll soon catch him to find out if it's an emergency stop! It needs to be something obvious and unmissable. And preferably not red - IMO the rear marker lights probably shouldn't be red anyway as it's easy enough to confuse them in poor conditions, especially when you get people who put their stop/tail bulbs in the wrong way around...
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You can see normal brake lights 10 cars ahead, nor would you see them if the car didn't have them, so that argument doesn't really hold water.
This system could be supplemental to the normal brake lights. It is probably more important to accurately know what the chap in front of you is doing. After all its his resonsibility to stop if the car in front of him is slamming on, just like it is yours to stop if he slams on.
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Jonathan,
Do you want me to change "You can" to "You can't" ?
Also, you referred to "10 cars ahead" whereas the previous note said "10 car lengths ahead" - want me to amend that as well ?
Mark.
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errrrrrrrrrrrr......
yep
ta
bye
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You're missing my point here. While of course it is up to you to leave enough space to stop and to be observant enough to realise how hard someone is braking, a system that helps differentiate between 'normal' brake applications and 'emergency' applications is always going to be a helpful addition. It would also help traffic further back - if you can see a car in the distance making an emergency application then you can be prepared to slow down, rather than bearing down on the scene of the accident at unabated speed.
Oh, and I don't think anyone is proposing have any system in place of brake lights - they have to stay as a basic safety feature.
(On anything other than a perfectly straight road, and unless you are stuck behind a large vehicle, you usually *can* see brake lights as far ahead as visibility allows. My point was that you can see colour, but not 'size')
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a system that helps differentiate between 'normal' brake applications and 'emergency' applications is always going to be a helpful addition
All you need is a small logo that lights up saying "If you can read this you're about to crash".
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"A green warning lamp used as an anti-lock brake indicator" sounds like an excellent idea to me. For once, it shows that our law-makers are actually ahead of the rest of us.
All it needs now is for the car-makers to implement the idea. Though, since this is in the 1989 regulations and green lights haven't been introduced yet, I don't think their introduction can be imminent.
Sounds like an opportunity for an entrepreneur.
Ian
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DVD et al,
I too have unraveled my brain trying to find another reference to this and have singularly failed.
On face of it it seems sensible.
As an alternative what about making the brake lights flash. Manually doing this seems to get a reaction when sitting at the back of a traffic queue and observing A Plonker Esq rapidly bearing down on ones tailgate.
(engage old codger mode)
Speaking of odd brake lights I remember a letter written to Motor magazine when I was still at grammar school about 4th form I guess.
There was one of those long wittering discussions in the letters page about the wisdom of flashing ones headlights in the face of an injudicious overtaker coming the other way.
One guy suggested that we should have brake lights on the front as well as rear. The purpose being so that it would be clear to a driver if their actions had caused another to have to brake. Thus saving the need for flashing, waving, hand signals polite and otherwise. Any thoughts on that?
(disengage old codger mode)
Note the spell checker won't allow me to be an old pharte anymore :-(
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FiF....during your recent trawls, did you notice the location of the rule restricting blue lights to the 'ello, 'ello, 'ello brigade (and chums) ?
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FiF....during your recent trawls, did you notice the location of the rule restricting blue lights to the \'ello, \'ello, \'ello brigade (and chums) ?
Paul by any chance did the links prev supplied not work?
Here is the link to the index of the info
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_1.htm
You need to look in and follow the links in the contents index to
Part I interpretations and check up those for
emergency vehicles
special warning lamp
warning beacon
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_2.htm#(Ti)3interpretation
Then go to Part II
11 Colour of light shown by lamps & replectors 2(h) and (k)
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_3.htm#(Tii)iicolourlightshownlampreflector
also
section 16 (a) & (b)
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_3.htm#(Tii)i6restrictionfittingbluewarningbeaconspecialwarninglampsimilardevice
FINALLY Look up schedule 16 at the back
www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/
Uksi_19891796_en_21.htm#nsch16requirementrelatingobligatory
optionalwarningbeacon
However I note in this last bit there is the phrase
\"The light shown by any one warning beacon shall be displayed not less than 60 nor more than 240 equal times per minute and the intervals between each display of light shall be constant.\"
Now I know that many moons ago the law had to be changed. Previously the only warning beacons allowed were the rotating ones, and strobe type beacons were desired. Maybe there has been an amendment as most of the strobe lights I see definitely do not have constant intervals between each display of light. Maybe there is an amendment somewhere but I afraid I can\'t find it.
Also there must be something in Constr & Use regs but as the original is too old to be online, chasing through the zillions of amendments is rather taxing as DVD pointed out above.
Hope that helps.
FiF
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FiF,
No mention of the word 'strobe' in GB vehicle regs (all online here!) that I can find - might they be called something else?
Rebecca
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Rebecca,
I don't know. Strobe lights is the common term for these.
I can't imagine a search on "those flashing thingies like what aircraft have fitted" will find much either. ;-)
What about stroboscopic?
Thanks for looking.
FiF
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Thanks, FiF, that was enlightening (ouch), and sorry about the link(s). I didn't go there because I thought you were leading to one specific point.
When I see things like
"The light shown by any one warning beacon shall be displayed not less than 60 nor more than 240 equal times per minute and the intervals between each display of light shall be constant."
I have to ponder the mental stability of the author(s) and, indeed, the politicians who pass this stuff into law.
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Searched for more references to this and didn't do very well except for this...
"If a trailer is fitted with brakes with an anti-lock device which receives its electrical supply from
the connection for the stop lamp, it shall have a green warning lamp which can be seen within
the reflective range of the rear-view mirror. The lamp shall light up if the electrical circuit in the
anti-lock device is broken or if the sensor becomes inoperative."
This extract comes from 'Regulations Concerning Vehicle Design and Equipment' from Iceland No. 915, 2000
So over there, the light comes on if anti-lock doesn't work, rather than showing it's in use. Funny old world.
And DVD, I don't want the legislation easier to wade through because my employer's business is based on making sense of all the confusion.
No confusion = no job for me.
I'm happy to look the odd reference up from time to time to make life easier for you if you promise not to lobby your MP on the confusion matter. Deal?
Rebecca
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Rebecca
Wow....... your a girl I'd like to get to know as you can waltz around the Acts etc.
I have the query weighed off with a couple of Traffic officers from my old Force and so far not an inkling.
FiF is no slouch with legislation knowledge and I sort of groaned when he posted knowing that the answer would be hard to find. Lot of EEC Regs covering and more intended on the brake field but where this particular one is beats me (so far)
Thanks
DVD
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Fascinating thread...
The logical approach would be for existing lights to be utilised if the ABS came into force. That would make it easy to retrofit, surely?
For example:
the hazard indicators to come on at twice the usual speed.
The reverse lights to flash quickly
the brake lights to 'alternate' - one left, one right - quickly.
(obviously all these to occur as long as ABS is working, and for 2-3 seconds afterwards).
I know here in SA using hazrd signals when driving is illegal - however, I do it all the time - as a thank you when I've overtaken somebody who was kind enough to pull over, when the monsoon-type-rain hits us, etc
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Sort of on the lines of this thread. Did anyone notice what happened to the artic when JC pulled in to show off the radar braking system in the Merc on Top Gear last night? The poor 5od had to slow down and then pull out because some berk in a Merc had pulled in and started braking hard! Then JC pulled back out and the artic was left high and dry in the middle lane with a mile of road clear in the inside! No wonder these guys rant on about car drivers.
JC also led us to belive that this sort of equipment would be fitted as standard to all cars in the future. Now that I would like to see. I doubt whether the average driver in the UK would be able to handle that sort of interfearance with their driving let alone a green light flashing to tell them something isn't / is working!!
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The green light refered to is fitted to the o/s/f corner of an articulated lorry trailer where it is visible in the driver's mirror . It lights up once to show the ABS system is working and then remains off .If a fault subsequently developes it will flash to alert the driver .
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The green light refered to is fitted to the o/s/f corner of an articulated lorry trailer where it is visible in the driver's mirror . It lights up once to show the ABS system is working and then remains off .If a fault subsequently developes it will flash to alert the driver .
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"If a fault subsequently developes it will flash to alert the driver"
Just like your post, eh?
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Cannot see the point as if the driver is braking then his attention should be 80% forward and not 80% checking in his rear view mirror to see if it was flashing?
More to the point if the device was on the drivers cockpit binnacle it could be observed whilst looking forward.
DVD
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The green light will start flashing when a fault developes , not just when the brakes are applied . The driver will see it during a routine check in his o/s mirror .(Thats the theory anyway . It presupposes that he understands it's significance ).
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Which puts it on par with the warning indicator light in the cockpit. Activate the indicator and green flaher on fascia comes on. No legislation on this to be exempt from a steady lamp. Same brake red warning light.
No, its something more than this. Have half a dozen enquiries out and all still baffled at the moment.
Very boring I know but damned annoying.
DVD
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DVD ,You may be right , but remember that these warning lights are unique in being external , where they can be seen by other road users , hence the need for regulation . Still , I'm a decade out of that particular field now , so I stand to be corrected. I will be interested in anything you can dig up on this . DeeJay.
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DVD,
Had a crawl round a new(ish) artic delivering to us yesterday,
Driver claimed it had ABS, no green light that I could see.
Driver wasn't any the wiser about this issue either.
Also he wasn't too impressed with my suggestion that we should take it for a burn round the site to see if it really had ABS
;-)
just a bit more grist to the mill,
cheers,
FiF
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Fif and anybody else who is round the bend like him and me:
It would appear that EEC Reg 71/320 set the standard as far as brakes on motor vehicle are concerned. 74/132, 75/524,79/489,85/647,88/194 (certain heavy vehicles and trailers to be fitted with anti lock devices),91/422 all amend the original directive and which was adopted into UK Law via Regulation 15 Motor Vehicles(Con & Use) Regs 1986.9 (as amended).
EEC Directive 98/12, Annex X, Paras 2, 3 and 4 cover the anti lock warning device as follows:
2.2.1.25. Motor vehicles authorised to tow a trailer equipped with an anti-lock system, with the exception of vehicles of categories M1 and N1, shall be fitted with a separate optical warning signal for the anti-lock system of the trailer, meeting the requirements of points 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 of Annex X. They shall also be equipped with a special electric connector for the anti-lock systems of trailers, in accordance with Annex X, point 4.4 of this Directive
4.1. Any electrical failure or sensor anomaly that affects the system with respect to the functional and performance requirements in this Annex, including those in the supply of electricity, the external wiring to the controller(s), the controller(s) (3) and the modulator(s) shall be signalled to the driver by a specific optical warning signal.
4.1.1. The warning signal shall light up when the anti-lock braking system is energised and, with the vehicle stationary, it shall be verified that none of the above-mentioned defects are present before extinguishing the signal.
4.1.2. The static sensor check may verify that a sensor was not functioning the last time that the vehicle was at a speed greater than 10 km/h (4). Also during this verification phase, the electrically controlled pneumatic modulator valve(s) shall cycle at least once.
4.2. Motor vehicles equipped with an anti-lock braking system and authorised to tow a trailer equipped with such a system, with the exception of vehicles of categories M1 and N1, shall be fitted with a separate optical warning signal for the anti-lock braking system of the trailer, meeting the requirements of point 4.1 of this Annex.
4.2.1. This warning signal shall not light up when a trailer without an anti-lock braking system is coupled or when no trailer is coupled. This function shall be automatic.
4.3. The abovementioned optical warning signal(s) shall be visible even in daylight and it shall be easy for the driver to check that they are in working order.
4.7.2. an optical warning signal shall inform the driver that the anti-lock braking system has been disconnected or the control mode changed; the anti-lock failure warning signal may be used for this purpose;
Seems our RV Lighting Regs dictate that the colour of the light is green, just where it says this in any of the EEC Regs beats me.
Anybody that wants more information pull up the above mentioned Directives and follow them through.
FIF Now we know, but are we wiser?????
DVD
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"FIF Now we know, but are we wiser?????"
Yes we are. The EU monkeys are hell bent on confusing us into submission.
Does anyone know if EU directives and regulations are originally written in English?
If not, where do I apply for work as a tranlator? I'll insert some common sense into these rules.
Good practice for when I become dictator.................
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"FIF Now we know, but are we wiser?????"
Thanks DVD, well done that man.
Virtual pint behind the bar for you, and a real one if you ever visit down this way.
Am I any the wiser? Hmmm. Other than I now ought to know better when not to start "difficult" threads.
Seems the EEC are no better at drafting clear legislation than our mob. I can see anomalies in all that stuff already; but I'm not going to go there you'll be relieved to hear.
Rebecca, looks like your job is OK for quite a few years then.
cheers all,
FiF
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