What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - madf

"The Liberal Democrats have promised to reopen thousands of miles of railway track and stations across the country in what they said would be the biggest expansion of the network since the Victorian era.

The work would be paid for with nearly £3 billion switched from road to rail, party transport spokesman Norman Baker said."

tinyurl.com/y9rxwf3

So that's all right. More fuel taxes... and less spending...


Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - midlifecrisis

And let's not forget one of their main policies is the introduction of National Road Pricing! God forbid they get anywhere near the seat of Government!

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - Clk Sec
"The Liberal Democrats have promised to reopen thousands of miles of railway track and stations across the country

That will be after they have us all driving around at 20 mph, no doubt...

Clk Sec

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - b308

Hopefully they won't.... but more spending on rail to get long distance lorries off the raods would benefit all... I'd rather they all drop this insane idea of a High Speed Rail network and spend all those billions on upgrading the existing network... that would benefit the majority of the population and not just those who lived within 20 miles of the stations on HS2!

I had to explain to my eldest why the LibDems were able to promise so many nice sounding things... because they won't get overall power... if they knew they could they would never risk all those promises... thats why the always come over as "nice"... yuck!

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - madf

b308

"but more spending on rail to get long distance lorries off the raods would benefit all.."

I see no plans to increase taraffic to and from ports..

And with most supermarkets using distribution centres based on road, there is little chance of any change in havy lorry traffic due to this within the next 15 years..

(Why so long? Planning, construction will take 10 years minimum... and then you need a change in policy from all road users which will not happen until after the new rail capacity is working)

Of course, people who are credulous to think who think building a rail line = the same as writing a few election slogans will think otherwise.


Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - b308

madf, I know it isn't an "overnight" answer and I never said it was... though any progress in moving long distance road traffic to rail will need to overcome the sceptics and despite contrary opinion much more movement by rail is possible, though the system will require more investment to make it possible!

To comment on a couple of points... most road "distribution centres" are obviously near roads, but they also tend to be near centres of population and very often next to or near railways (Argos near Burton and Stafford both spring to mind), so its not as big an issue as you think... Building extra connecting lines would not cause major issues as far as planning is concerned, very often the land is already there just waiting to be used... unlike HS2!

My point is simply that the money proposed to be spent on HS2 would be far better spent on upgrading the existing network, electrifying and increasing capacity... so greater use of container traffic and piggy back trains can take some of the strain off our overcrowded road system...

The main problem as far as I can see is the road lobby who are totally opposed to anything which threatens their virtual monopoly... and I can't see any answer to that as their "clout" in political circles is far more than the rail lobby will ever manage to muster!

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - grumpyoldeyore

There has been some progress in this in the last couple of years, with major rail works in the Southampton area which is now spreading out

preview.tinyurl.com/yegv3tp

Quote: "Freight Upgrade
As part of a £71m project designed to remove up to 50,000 lorries a year from the region’s roads and provide a cheaper, quicker and more practical way of transporting goods around the country, Network Rail is rebuilding three road bridges over the railway in the Winchester area."

(I'm a fairly regular vistor to the area using both road and rail - rellies in Southampton, friends in Winchester)

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - madf

apologies duplicate


Edited by madf on 05/04/2010 at 16:58

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - LikedDrivingOnce
I'd rather they all drop this insane idea of a High Speed Rail network and spend all those billions on upgrading the existing network... that would benefit the majority of the population and not just those who lived within 20 miles of the stations on HS2!

No way that they'd do that, b308 - far too sensible an idea!

Edited by LikedDrivingOnce on 05/04/2010 at 17:46

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - rtj70

I bet there are some living near old/disused railway lines that will be unhappy if they reopen them. I wonder what the people near the old railway line from Chorlton to Didsbury think of it being reopened as a tramline (Metrolink). It will go from East Didsbury to Manchester via Chortlon, Trafford etc.

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - wotspur

How about they actually did something for people of Britain and decided that all lorries coming into Britain will be charged, by weight to use our roads - currently they fill up abroad, travel from Dover to Carlisle and back again( not sure of a lorries capacity or range) and leave costing them nowt - making our haulage industry less competitivie - or is that to anti European for the Liberals - dont worry they can say anything they won't get elected

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - R2-CMax
I'd rather they all drop this insane idea of a High Speed Rail network and spend all those billions on upgrading the existing network... that would benefit the majority of the population and not just those who lived within 20 miles of the stations on HS2!

No way that they'd do that, b308 - far too sensible an idea!

I think the problem is that the existing network has a large number of serious bottlenecks. So it actually ends up easier and cheaper to build a new line. Once you've decided that, it's much better value to build a super-fast line, as this takes the passengers and frees up legacy lines for Stobart to send cans of beans around the country. And/or to increase commuter services.

The other problem is we've spent 30 years building offices etc that are nowhere near decent public transport. My office is on the edge of Nottingham near the motorway, not in the centre near the station. So rail is simply not a sensible option for people like me.

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - Sofa Spud

As a lifelong Lib Dem voter I would say that I would support a shift in spending from roads to rail if it's to be used to re-open closed lines and stations, rather than just going into the general railway melting pot. But fix the pot-holes first!!

The emphasis should be on reducing the amount of long-distance freight carried by road. I remember in the 1980's Eddie Stobart was well-known for being anti-railways but now the Stobart company runs its own trains, sometimes pulled by locomotives painted in Stobart colours.

I'm not against lorries - I used to drive them myself. For a long time they've been seen as a better alternative than rail, mainly because of door-to-door flexibility. But if we have an upgraded rail freight infrastructure with more capacity, more terminals and competitive pricing, the boot might move to the other foot.

As for the proposed new high-speed route(s). I think they should do the feasibility studies and come up with a set of options, and that's all. The project should then be shelved until such time as the economy is better and there's a demonstrable need for the new line.

Putting my other hat on as a cyclist and supporter of Sustrans: Many of the routes that would be seen as candidates for re-opening are probably now part of the National Cycle Network. So I would want to see that where a line is to be re-opened that is now a cycle track, the rail company is obliged to provide a traffic-free cycle track following roughly the same route as before, and to a similar standard. That would cost peanuts compared to the cost of re-instating the railway line.

Even I, as a Lib Dem voter, have to agree that they will not form the next government - so they have the luxury of adopting policies that they know they won't have to implement!

If I'm on the train and some fat person is sat next to me munching crisps, I just think "well, it's not any worse than driving along with White Van Man 2 ft behind me talking on his mobile for mile after mile"

Edited by Sofa Spud on 05/04/2010 at 21:52

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - LikedDrivingOnce

If I'm on the train and some fat person is sat next to me munching crisps, I just think "well, it's not any worse than driving along with White Van Man 2 ft behind me talking on his mobile for mile after mile"

Fair enough - but could you stand some herbert yakking on their mobile for hours on end?

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - Sofa Spud

If I'm on the train and some fat person is sat next to me munching crisps, I just think "well, it's not any worse than driving along with White Van Man 2 ft behind me talking on his mobile for mile after mile"

Fair enough - but could you stand some herbert yakking on their mobile for hours on end?

The difference is that White Van Man following 2ft behind my rear bumper at 60 mph while talking on his mobile phone is stressful because it's dangerous, while a person talking loudly on their mobile on the train is just annoying, or sometimes plain funny!

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - ijws15

You can pull over and let white van man past.

IF you are lucky enough to get a seat you are stuck with the man on the phone.

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - ijws15

So make sure you vote - and not in a manner that may give us a hung parliament.

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - dieseldogg

But Parliment should be hung, or should that be hanged?

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - madf

Hanging is no good and is now no longer practised.

I prefer a judicious use of the rack: a better alternative than a stretch in prison.

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - sandy56
Considering how much of my money goes on MOTORING taxes I would much prefer the money to be spent on roads. We need better roads not necessarily more roads.( except to remove serious bottlenecks).

Train lovers are free so spend more on train tickets as they wish.

Its called democracy, which last time I checked we still have a government that we vote for. ( and look where that has got us- not much better than Greece and Spain- no more politics sorry)
Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - NowWheels

As usual with this sort of political proposal, it's nice as far as it goes, but it's a trivial and isolated measure in a huge system which needs much bigger fixes.

That's not a criticism of the LibDems in particular, because the other parties issue similarly glib proposals. In the era of 24 hour rolling news, it seems that no policy idea can be promoted unless it offers a simplistic headline-grabbing solution to a complex situation. This dumbled-down-to-kindergarten-level form of politics cannot accommodate the reality of much public polcy, which is that the only workable solutions are a complex mixture of related measures which require sustained implementation and tweaking over decades.

The UK's transport network is so large and complicated that fixing it will take decades, and it will need a huge range of measures, many of them expensive. That needs big investment every year for many years, and while £3billion for rail sounds great, this proposal appears to amount to £3billion over four or five years, which is about £600 million a year. Sounds like a lot, but it's about as much as was spent in one week last year on new cars alone (2 million registrations in 2009 is about 40,000 per week, guess average price of £15,000) ... and that doesn't even consider commercial vehicles.

Beefing up rail services sounds great, but even the trivial boost promised here will be useless to many people without decent connections. That means things such as more car parking at rail stations, secure bicycle storage at stations, bus connectiosn more frequent than the once-an-hour evening service to my home, and multi-modal interchanges so that people can get from train to bus without traipsing the streets to wait in the rain.

But the big factor that most such headline-grabbing announcements ignore is the need to redress the balance between transprt capacity and transport usage. Proposals such as this offer a patchy and marginal increase in the capacity of the transport system, while the rest of public policy drives up demand for transport. Six years of population increase through mass immigration has driven up demand. Centralising public services increases demand, and hospitals and schools have been getting fewer and bigger for decades, with predictable effects: morning rush hour congestion in Bradford disappears during the school holidays, because a huge proportion of the cars on the road are doing the school run. Businesses such as supermarkets are busy centralising their distribution systems, requiring lots of HGV mileage on the roads; and planning policy has driven retail trade to out-of-town shopping centres, while public transport goes to the city centres. Meanwhile the flexible labour market, with increasingly short-term employment, means that people can't live near work without moving home every year or two.

Transport experts of most persuasions agree on most of these factors. Politicians of most parties can look at the evidence and broadly agree on the range of factors at play, and they differ little on the range of solutions needed. But every one of them knows that it if they start treating the voters as intelligent adults by saying all of these things, the rolling news soundbite-gatherers will cut them off before they've got halfway through the first paragraph. So instead we get transport policy proposals delivered as little shiny nuggets with no context, and the winner has to focus on headline-grabbing "initiatives" rather than the decades-long sustained policy required to achieve change.

So we'd better learn to enjoy overcrowded trains, congested roads, lousy bus services, while we travel ever-increasing mileages, because our broken political system is incapable of fixing it.

Edited by NowWheels on 09/04/2010 at 11:58

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - Roly93

I live in west berks, and it now costs me £39 (including tube) to go into the city. If any government expects me to seriously consider using the rail system for leasuretime travel at these prices they are soreley deluded !

Currently rail prices are pitched such that you will only use it if you are forced to.

To create the public transport utopia so many politicians talk about would require a vast re-think of pricing to bring us more into line with say France or NL, where I could do an equivalent journey for less than half the price.

Switch £3 billion spending from Roads to Rail - Bilboman

Looking at the bigger historical picture here, there is a line of evolution in transport, which takes us from roads to canals, then railways and finally back to roads. The line seems to be swinging every so gently back in the direction of rail. All too little too late, I fear, as so many rail lines have been dug up, built over and converted into nature walks and cycle tracks and the like. The Great Central line, especially the stretch from Nottingham to London, had barely a handful of level crossings and the capacity to take long, large heavy trains from the continent which would eventually have come through the (as yet unbuilt!) Channel Tunnel right to the north of England with hardly an incline or bend to negotiate. Britian could have had a rail freight network as efficient and popular as Switzerland's, if it hadn't been for Beeching, unions, strikes, governments,... If only, if only...