Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed?

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Mon 22 Feb 2010 08:39
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg
So as per an earlier "toot" of mine, I see that research has now revealed that those who require multiple attempts, ie 4,5.6 attempts to pass their driving test never become competent drivers, this proved by their having more accidents..... incl with stationary /parked vehicles. 2nd attempt pass is best, first time passers (like me ) are a bit cocky(apparently), I wasnt btw
cheers

Edited by Pugugly on 22/02/2010 at 08:40

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Mon 22 Feb 2010 08:44
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Martin Devon
Only one. Bike and car first time. Smug or what!

Only joking. Keep any tirade for trolls.

M
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 08:52
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg
Do the insurers ask how many attempts btw?
Perhaps they should/will now start to to do so.
I am not aware that they currently do.
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 09:05
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - movilogo
No currently insurers don't ask how many attemptes one needed.

I heard in Switzerland one can attempt 3 times max and then one more time with help of a psychologist.

geneva.angloinfo.com/information/11/exlicence.asp

A person who fails their driving test more than three times will be referred to a psychologist who will determine if they are mentally fit to drive and whether they may have another attempt.
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 09:41
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Sofa Spud
I don't think there should be a limit on the number of times a person takes the test. There are people who pass the test first time who go on to become dangerous drivers.

Instead I would advocate much more use of disqualification as a penalty - including lifetime disqualification for very serious offences.

It should be open to courts to revoke licences of drivers guilty of road-rage on medical grounds - i.e. they are psychologically unfit to drive.

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Mon 22 Feb 2010 09:45
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - diddy1234
I would have said that if someone takes 10 or 20 times to pass a test must not have the aptitude to drive.

Sorry to sound really bad but generally speaking if it takes that many times to pass a driving test then they can't or won't learn.

Driving lessons only teach people to pass the test NOT to drive in real life.
After passing the driving test then the you really learn to drive and if these people take 10 or 20 times to pass what chance do they have in the real world ?
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 10:01
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Sofa Spud
Quote:..."Driving lessons only teach people to pass the test NOT to drive in real life."

I disagree. There are certainly things that the driving test doesn't cover, such as motorway driving or night driving, but the basics remain the same.

Who among us would happily sit a driving test tomorrow, certain that we'd pass?

What new drivers lack is experience. Driving lessons and the test teach how to deal with traffic situations - the difficulty for new drivers is recognising exactly what situation they're in at any given moment. We experienced drivers might get a similar feeleing if we're called upon unexpectedly to drive an unfamilar vehicle in an unfamiliar city at night!!
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 10:01
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Falkirk Bairn
Neighbour's young lad took 10 tries to pass. £1300 3rd Party F&T

2/3 bumps (walls, bollards, kerbs) & 1 x write-off when a lamp-post jumped out!

Par for the course in the 1st 2 years possibly?
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 10:41
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - turbo11
I believe that in Germany you get four attempts. Failure after that means you can't get a licence.
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 10:49
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - movilogo
As per rule, all EU licenses are considered at par.

Now if some EU countries allow max 3-4 attempts and another allows unlimited attempts then there is something wrong.
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 11:06
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg
I'd go with the Greman/Swiss policy every time.
well the wife is half German(Prussian, actually)
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 11:43
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Cliff Pope
How many attempts are allowed for someone to qualify as an airline pilot?
Would you be happy flying with someone who had needed 5 attempts, or 10 perhaps?
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 11:55
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Rattle
It is a complicated issue as people fail for different reasons. I would set the limit at ten as that should allow for failing due to not being ready, bad instructor etc.

Also in a test many things which can happen caused by other drivers which can cause you to fail. A lot of it is down to luck.

I would say the test here may be a bit harder than say Germany simply because there is a higher volume of traffic here due to the country being so dense.
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 12:17
Rattle, In Germany don't the learner drivers learn to drive in as many different conditions as possi - diddy1234
Rattle, In Germany don't the learner drivers learn to drive in as many different conditions as possible (night time, adverse weather etc) ?

Saying that when I was there there were a lot of accidents on country roads, none on the motorways though.

Edited by diddy1234 on 22/02/2010 at 12:21

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 07:57
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - ijws15

No point setting a limit . .

In fact if they do I am going to set up a company to run pre-tests and employ qualified driving test examiners to do them.

Failing one of my tests would not count as one of your fails and would ensure that people only sat a full test when they could pass, And i could charge more than a real test ;-).

BTW my father was an instructor for a number of years - his pass rate was over 90% - mainly because he told the pupil when they were ready and did not let them sit tests when they would fail.

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Mon 22 Feb 2010 11:51
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Waino
Further to MD (who I assume took his bike test first), I don't think that anyone should even be allowed to take their car driving test until they've passed the motorcycle test and had a couple of years on bikes.
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Mon 22 Feb 2010 12:02
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Rattle
That would I guess increase the deaths on British roads by about 100000% :(.
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Mon 15 Mar 2010 14:53
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg

Having had the daughter out driver training, blinking heck it is astounding just how much information one has learned to observe, assimilate and act upon.

Unlike a reasonably intelligent well intentioned 17 year old.

who can either

(i) judge her width to about 50mm

or

(ii) does NOT realize that she is that close

And

Dont mention roundabout lane discipline

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Mon 15 Mar 2010 18:34
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Glaikit Wee Scunner {P}

I passed my car test ,then a few years later, the bike test after riding push bikes, moped and a Honda 50 on L plates. Both first time.

A friend, now dead, passed his car test at the seventh attempt. Died from muscular dystrophy.

Sad, but he needed his car to go shopping in rural Scotland , get to work and latterly just to get out of the house after his health had deteriorated.

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 10:09
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Cliff Pope

(i) judge her width to about 50mm

That's pretty impressive. If I knew the car was 6 foot wide, and I came to a width restriction of 6' 4", at what speed would I confidently drive through?

50? 30? 5?

How do I get rid of this vertical blue line?

Edited by Cliff Pope on 16/03/2010 at 10:11

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 11:24
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Muggy
I don't think that anyone should even be allowed to take their car driving test until they've passed the motorcycle test and had a couple of years on bikes.

And how would this work with people like me who are deaf and consequently may not have a good sense of balance?

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 00:39
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - SteelSpark
So as per an earlier "toot" of mine, I see that research has now revealed that those who require multiple attempts, ie 4,5.6 attempts to pass their driving test never become competent drivers

I've been waiting a while to ask, which research is this DD?

I'm interested, because it took me 4 attempts so, if the research is to be believed, I am never going to become a competent driver :(

I guess that what the research actually says is that, on average, a driver who fails more times will end up having more accidents. Quite possibly that is true.

The fact that this is "on average" would seem to be an important issue here because I very much doubt that everybody who failed 3 times (like me) would have more accidents than everybody who failed twice.

So, it would seem a bit extreme to stop somebody from qualifying just because they take a certain number of tests, when there is not a direct correlation between failure and eventual competence.

If you followed that logic, you would only let women drive, because they have, on average, less accidents than men, and you would only let over 40s drive, because, on average, they have less accidents than younger people.

While you were at it, you might want to imprison all teenagers, because, on average, they are more likely to shoplift than the middle aged.

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 09:23
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg

Quite correct steelspark, it did actually relate the number of accidents caused by drivers to the number of attempts required to pass the test.

I made the connection/corrolotation? between the number of accidents caused/experienced and driver competence

I thought this was not unreasonable, as presumably greater competence= fewer accidents

I might appear arrogent but I see incompetent drivers almost every day, based on 30 years accident and points free driving, this incompetence mostly due to a lack of anticipation / engagment of brain

I cannot remember where I saw this study published, but it would have been a reliable source such as the Daily Telegraph, I suppose I should have a wee hoke on tinternet & see if I can find it again.

cheers

M

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 11:19
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Sofa Spud

I we were to limit the number of times people can take their test, then I think it would be logical to bring in limits on how many times a driver can be disqualified too.

I would go for 'three times and you're out' as far a driving disqualification goes. So a third driving disqualification would be permanent and irrevocable.

As I said before, I'm not sure we need to limit the number of times someone can take their test. But maybe after they've failed 5 tests they should have to have a certain number of hours further tuition before trying again.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 16/03/2010 at 11:23

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 12:23
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg

Therein lies the problem

How many of the persons who have needed repeated attempts to pass the test have actually done so only AFTER basically memorising the test route perutations / routine?

Due to repetition & repitition & repitition & repitition & repitition & repitition & repetition

And to pot with their real world driving ability

Why are some on this forum so determined to assert that anyone can be taught to drive...... that is drive competently ............and therefore safely

I mean I want to be a jet pilot / brain surgeon/ top barrister

But I know I do not have the aptitude required.

Cheers

M

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 15:21
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - CGNorwich
Why are some on this forum so determined to assert that anyone can be taught to drive...... that is drive competently .

Broadly I think that is is probably true that nearly everyone can be taught to be at least a competant driver. It requires no academic qualifications and only the basic physical capabilities that all human beings possess to go about their lives. The problem is that a lot of people are not actually taught well, not that they are somehow incapable of learning.

It would be interesting to hear from a driving instructor as to what percentage of pupils he believes are actually incapable of learning to drive to a competent standard


Edited by CGNorwich on 16/03/2010 at 15:22

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 16:51
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - OldSkoOL

I know someone who passed after 8 attempts very recently and he has already written off his car.

And that was after a few near misses according to friends travelling with him.

His write off was because he cornering at between 30 and 40mph on a welsh road (confirmed by the passenger) well within the speed limit but somehow forgot to straighten the wheel so the car turned left into the wall which was made of stone and dirt and spun the car around.

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 17:01
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - CGNorwich

I know someone who passed after 8 attempts very recently and he has already written off his car.
Interesting but statistically meaningless. How many people write off their cars who passed their test on the first attempt? I know one such who has written off two cars in quick succession

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 17:21
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg

It may require no acedemic qualifications but It does however require a modicum of applied intelligence, would anyone care to suggest what percentile of the population that this should therefore exclude?

To quote sommat I heard on TV

"Ya cant fix stupid",

however even I admit that the more intelligent can make stupid mistakes, difference is they realize they were mistakes.

cheers M

Edited by dieseldogg on 16/03/2010 at 17:23

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Wed 17 Mar 2010 11:55
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - CGNorwich
but It does however require a modicum of applied intelligence


Well obviously it requires a modicum of intelligence but so do most things in life. I'm not sure that learning to drive a car is intrinsically more difficult than learning to ride a bicycle or rowing a boat. There is no doubt a very small percentage who find it impossible to learn but I guess that might be said of anything

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Tue 16 Mar 2010 17:22
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Spospe

I wonder at people's inability to master some tasks, not just driving, but other things as well.

For example, I know several very competent drivers who have a complete lack of ability to tune a guitar by using pitch pipes. They cannot do it, no matter how much help, training, encouragement etc they have been given, there is something within them that makes it a no-no.

I am not a driving instructor, but I have done considerable firearms training and I can tell you that about 5% never, ever get the hang of using sights and co-ordinating the release of the shot.

My guess is that for some people, driving is like playing by ear, or shooting; a small percentage, say about 5% will never master it properly.

After say 5 attempts, that should be it and no more (there should be an appeals process to cover hard-luck cases).

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Wed 17 Mar 2010 09:02
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Glaikit Wee Scunner {P}

Several persons of my acquaintance have told me that they drove unaccompanied before passing a test. From newspaper stories , many people drive while unqualified or banned or underage.

What's the point in preventing people plugging away at learning to drive legally?

Would you rather people made their own decisions as to whether they had the "right" to drive? Keep them in the tent p........ ( swear filter knows the rest).

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Wed 17 Mar 2010 10:02
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Sofa Spud

Quote:...""many people drive while unqualified or banned or underage.""

We had an appalling case of this locally a few years ago. A man who had never held a driving licence because he was visually impaired killed a pedestrian while travelling at over 60 mph in a 30 mph limit. He got a long prison sentence and he's probably still inside.

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Wed 17 Mar 2010 11:47
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Cliff Pope

After say 5 attempts, that should be it and no more (there should be an appeals process to cover hard-luck cases).

The problem is that we have deliberately constructed a society entirely based on the need to drive in order to function in that society. Telling someone at say age 20 that he will never be permitted to drive is effectively to condemn him to a lifetime of second class citizenship and poor job prospects.

By in effect inviting him to drive illegally, there would be few better ways of starting somebody off on a lifetime of crime, as one offence inevitably led to another.

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Wed 17 Mar 2010 17:02
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Spospe

But if that person is truly incapable of learning to drive, what then?

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Thu 18 Mar 2010 10:42
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - Cliff Pope

In that case we would just have to accept that probably mainstream society is going to pass him by - like the village idiot of yesteryear, or the computer illiterate today.

Their only options would be a lifetime of poor opportunities and missing the consumer benefits from a better job, slipping into the criminal sector, or emigrating to a country where standards are lower.

But there can't really be many in that category, incapable of passing the test. Perhaps the test is testing the wrong things. It's interesting that we permit people to be totally incompetent in other much more crucial areas - parenting for example.

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Thu 18 Mar 2010 11:11
Repeated attempts to pass the driving test, how many should be allowed? - dieseldogg

That is however my concern

What %age of the annual death toll on our roads is due to incompetent driving?

A very high %age

So why is it apparently taken as almost a "God given right" to be allowed to drive.

On this basis we should ALL take a turn at flying a helicopter, regardless of the skills needed. I am aware this is "reducing to the absurb" but it makes the point.

Ditto the attitude to training in general, ie the preposterous widely held presumption that for instance one can pick a member of staff and send them on an 360 excavator course.

and hey they are returned "competent" .

No, sorry, but some ( as high as 50%?) are incapable of ever acquiring those skills.

Course then there is that significent %age who can neither drive nor parent, generally seen smoking while driving while transporting unrestrained children, who are either(i) standing behind & between the front seats or (ii) actually in the front without a seatbelt.

I regularly see both varients locally .

cheers

M

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