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i own two diesels at the moment with frozen fuel (lines?)
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I was looking for some information on this the other day - I assumed it would be quite easy to Google and find the dates and spec's but it isn't. I note the BP information linked above is from Australia so may not be relevant here.
On the dates, the only thing I could find where The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) Regulations 1994 www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1994/Uksi_19942295_en_1.htm#e...d but there have been a lot of amendment to that so the paragraph below could have changed:
"(4) Subject to the provisions of these Regulations, no person shall, during a period beginning on 10th September in any year and ending on 15th March in the following year, distribute diesel fuel which?
(a) does not comply with the winter diesel fuel requirement; and"
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No - but the waxes will separate and clog the filters / injectors at a certain temperature.
In the US and Canada they have no problem keeping the diesel locos running on the railways despite much lower temperatures. What they do have is problems starting them because a turbo engine in cold air may not generate enough heat to ignite the fuel - hence engine intake heaters (i.e. light a small fire in the air intake) or just leave it running.
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Lunch time Sky News wasdemonstrating that the diesel will not dispense from the pump at a filling station in Blair Athol.
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BS EN 590:2009Automotive fuels. Diesel. Requirements and test methods
shop.bsigroup.com/en/ProductDetail/?pid=0000000000...8
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iirc Mercedes have fuel heaters in fuel lines for some diesel cars..
I drove in Scotland in -21C with a Rover 825D with no problems...
-17C two nights ago here.. yaris d4d started no issues as did 106 diesel
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I was wondering that too as we had -15C here last night (rural Cheshire) and -14C the night before. It does sound as though it's starting to get borderline. The car is in a garage though, so I'm ok. And the wife's Jazz runs on petrol, so we're mobile, ice permitting.
Heated fuel lines are all very well but the tank is still getting the full impact of the cold. I suppose the idea is to melt wax flakes between the tank & the engine.
The Met Office is forecasting no worse than -6C hereabouts over the next few days which is not really credible with the crystal clear sky and the wind unchanged in direction.
JH
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JH
I'm in N Staffs. The Met Office are useless. They forecast -6C last nite for us. It was -5C at 11.30 am...!
I reckon from the max/min thermometer and the ice flakes it was -11C..
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Most modern diesels have a fuel heater that cuts in at about 35 deg.F.Fuel heaters are available from both Bosch and CAV/Lucas/Rotodiesel and these just fit in the fuel supply line so either can be fitted to either make of equipment.Having said that,get your fuel from a supplier with good turnover and you'll be getting winter-spec fuel.
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Anyone know what low temperature if any that petrol stops working at?
Petrol does not "freeze" in the worst UK temperatures but, IIRC, in the winter of 1963 when the temp was ~ -23'C, ice crystals would form on the inside of the metal petrol tank (as well as on the outside) and eventually turn to water, which would stop the engine.
Diesel fuel routinely "waxed" in those temperatures and some paraffin was often added to the tank to keep the mix more fluid. I have seen operators burning newspapers under the metal diesel tank to warm it up and when attempting to start the engine would also apply burning newspaper flames to be sucked into the air inlet, with the filter removed, to raise the compression temp and in turn the engine would invariably start and keep going.
Of course the diesel engines then were all indirect injection and had just enough compression (~16-1) to start at the best of times.
How diesel technology has changed since then!
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>>ice crystals would form on the inside of the metal petrol tank
It should be better now since many fuel tanks are made from plastic, which would encourage less condensation. I know mine is. Good to know if I live in Scotland, which is bearing the brunt of these low temperatures.
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Hi
Incredible, yes! I was thinking about the same thing yesterday at work.
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I was wondering that too as we had -15C here last night (rural Cheshire)
...The Met Office is forecasting no worse than -6C hereabouts over the next few days which is not really credible with the crystal clear sky and the wind unchanged in direction.
I'm also in rural Cheshire and the temperature variation baffled me too, but it was "only" -4C at midnight and at 9AM it was -6C, wheras yesterday at 9AM it was -12C.
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So far round here (west mids) it seems that if the temperature goes up a few degrees we get some snow... which is whats forcast for tomorrow, BP!
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To BP
I am beginning to wonder how accurate domestic in/out thermometers are! If you put them indoors and check both in and out they're aren't always reading the same. Mine out front is reading +7.5c as it is catching the sunshine. The back of the house is saying -3 for an upstairs stuck in the window analogue one and -2.5 for a digital one with the sensor tucked under the windowsill.
Mins for both were about -7 last night. Coldest I have seen was -7.5. Friend in Congleton was showing -13 on his in car thermometer when he got to work at 10am the other day! Again here was only showing -7. There seems to be massive temperature variation over a few miles. The nearest BBC weather station is at Leek. It's 8 miles from me and often it reads a completely different temperature to where I am. It reads -13 I'll be -7. It can only depend on localised cloud cover. If the station is under cloud it must read much warmer so it is impossible to be accurate unless they are taking cloud cover into consideration. If it's clear there and cloudy here then it reads much colder.
I'm so tempted to get an oregon weather station and give up on the Met Office altogether. I did better looking out of the window and following a weather forecasting flowchart than the supercomputer during the summer. I know very little about weather as I didn't pay attention in Geography at school!
I still haven't ventured out. Bet my battery is flat by now...
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At work yesterday i noticed 2 foriegn HGV's stopped on a slight incline leading to Bridge. Behind was a queue of traffic about 2 miles long. I notiched them get going at a really slow pace. This must have been their diesal waxing up no doubt. They will probably have just got off the ferry at Hull a bit earlier. So much for manufacturers putting additives in after October. Bellboy must have purchased his diesal in the balmy days of last summer.
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A few years ago when I was driving to the Alps in winter, the service stations were advertising their -20C diesel.
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teabelly,
For someone who knows nothing about the weather, you've not done a bad job of weighing up temperature.
I also believe there are wide local variations.
Add to that the fact we are all using different equipment to measure the temperature, it's hardly surprising a confused picture emerges.
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teabelly
We're in Biddulph
Same variations here.
Met Office forecast -6C for Wed night/Thursday am... we had -17C. It was -5C at 11.30am.
If there is no cloud cover , temperature drops like a stone..
As the Met Office is run by a well known Climate Change Activist... (really) say no more.
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I am beginning to wonder how accurate domestic in/out thermometers are!
Obviously they'll vary by location around the house but I've compared 2 digital and 2 analogue thermometers and they're remarkably similar, although the LCD displays on the digital ones goes haywire at low temps.
I drove to Manchester airport and back on Thursday morning and it was surprising how the external temp displayed in the car varied, and it wasn't related to speed / wind-chill. It was -8C around the airport but I drove home along the A49 and it was -14 while stopped at some traffic lights. Got home and said -12C, same as on the garden thermometer.
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>> I drove to Manchester airport and back on Thursday morning and it was surprising howthe external temp displayed in the car varied and it wasn't related to speed / wind-chill.
Wind chill doesn't apply to an inanimate object like a thermometer. In a given ambient temperature it will read the same whether it is stationary or moving.
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In a given ambient temperature it will read the same whether it is stationary or moving.
I didn't know that. Even if the sensor is exposed to a cold wind, would it still read the same as one that was shielded?
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On every car I've ever owned with an outside temperature sensor, the sensor has been located in the drivers door mirror, and in cold weather, its reading is eventually affected by heat soaking through the window from the car's interior.
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On every car I've ever owned with an outside temperature sensor the sensor has been located in the drivers door mirror and in cold weather its reading is eventually affected by heat soaking through the window from the car's interior.
In every car I've ever owned (in the last 15+ years), the door wing-mirrors are heated!!!
The external temperature sensor is most definitely not located in the wing mirror! Most that I know of are located under the front bumper or the wheel arch in a clean flow of air and low down so as to minimise the effect of engine heat.
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The external temperature sensor is most definitely not located in the wing door mirror!
There are a few cars that have them in the mirror housing.
A quick google found the Seat Ibiza, Alfa Romeo 147, Fiat Stilo, to name but a few.
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In every car I've ever owned (in the last 15+ years) the door wing-mirrors are heated!!!
As they have been on the cars I've owned with mirror mounted sensors. That's neither here nor there.
The external temperature sensor is most definitely not located in the wing mirror!
They are on a Peugeot 306, Renault Megane, Volvo S60, VW Golf mk4 I've owned / own now, and doubtless many others. A small "bubble" located on the underside of the right hand door mirror housing.
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Even if the sensor is exposed to a cold wind would it still read the same as one that was shielded?
Once the sensor has reached the temperature of the surrounding air the sensor can't get any colder, regardless of whether it's in still air or moving air. For heat to be transferred from one thing to another there has to be a temperature difference between the two things.
Edited by L'escargot on 09/01/2010 at 16:35
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The temp sensor in my Xantia is in the passenger door mirror.
Quite amusing in French 2004 heatwave to note how it's indication dropped when screenwash liquid sprayed back onto it.
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My wife has a Pug 206 that cut out on her on the motorway a few weeks back when we had that really cold snap. An Engine warning symbol came on just before it cut out which, in the manual, says it could be a problem with 3 things...
1. Ignition system. Not that because engine had ignigted.
2. Injection system....?
3. Catalytic converter. That was replaced 6 months ago so assume is ok.
Now the injection system seemed most likely to me especially in those cold temperatures as I was aware that diesel can Gel at around those temps.
That night it had been around -15. A Mechanic serviced the car and in doing so replaced the fuel filter.
Since then, whenever the fuel level gets below 1/4 full we have trouble starting it and once in a while the "engine" warning light pops back up. Can anyone tell me if once Diesel has "frozen"/Gelled, then warmed up again, does the fuel revert back to its orriginal properties? I'm only asking because I can't think of anything else that could cause this issue. Its as if the "Bad" fuel is floating on the fresh stuff untill it runs low in the tank. Then the "bad stuff" begins to enter the engine and gives us grief!
Any thoughts on this and possible solutions would be a great help. I'm assuming draining the tank is an option, but really don't wanna be messing about with that. Would an additive "Cure" the problem?
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Diesel fuel will revert back to its original state once warmed up.
I think that your mechanic has probably left a slight air leak in the fuel system when he changed the fuel filter.
This is allowing the fuel to return to the tank when the level is low.
Try priming the manual fuel pump bulb under the bonnet until it gets hard & see if it starts ok then.
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