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Big, comfy, reliable and cheap cars now. Problem with transmissions seems to be sorted now as local clutch specialist will change flywheel, clutch and slave cylinder for £350+VAT.
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My last 80,000 or so miles have been done in Ford common rail diesels.
No bother whatsoever, they seem to get better the more mileage they do.
The 2.0ltr is a nicer, more revvy and smother (for a diesel) than the 1.8ltr.
Bit quicker, too, and almost as economical.
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Keep them serviced, don't treat the clutch as an on/off switch and they go forever.
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Keep them serviced
That's crazy talk ;-)
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Keep them serviced don't treat the clutch as an on/off switch and they go forever.
Thats funny. I can show you some that havent.
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and I can show you several which have. Odd eh ?
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and I can show you several which have. Odd eh ?
No car goes on forever, thats the kind of pink fluffy dice you see in the motoring rags, like in buy a XYZ keep it serviced and it will go on forever. Then we get the bloke standing in front of us wondering why his XYZ is costing him £1000 to fix and its only four years old. For the family man who pays his own way a popular car that is easy to fix is the best proposition, because they all go wrong and wear out sooner or later. The fact that I pay my mortgage each month is proof of that.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/11/2009 at 20:40
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Clearly you are speaking from personal experience which is fair enough and I will stop short of insulting you for expressing your opinions.
However, so am I. I have run a number of TDCis to huge mileages without the slightest problem ( in the course of paying my mortgage incidentally ) We must of course all speak as we find.
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Not being a mechanical type person I understand what HB means however, I do not for one minute think that when he says "will run forever" to be taken literaly but merely to convey that they will run for huge milages . I have a friend who owns a taxi company and all of his cars are Mondeo tdci, as a matter of course he expects them all to cover 350000 they are replaced, thus far he has not been disapointed.
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I work in a non-franchised garage where we work on all makes of cars. The popular brands are our bread and butter. I wouldnt say there are any genuinely bad cars on the market these days, unlike 20 years ago. But I have a lot of reservations about the latest generation diesels, especially the latest ones with DPF which I think is a bridge to far. The thing about the Ford TCDIs is that when they are bad they are very bad. The materials and tolerances that CRs use are well above those of normal low pressure petrol injection, so the parts costs can be very high. We have tried using seconhnad and recon components but the experiences have not been good, so now we stick to fitting new components only. I have seen four year old CR cars scrapped because of fuel systems fault, something I have never seen on a petrol injection car. |The faults are just more difficult and expensive to fix, there is not necessarily more than on any other car.
for a reliable diesel I like the VAG group PD engines. They have a few stock faults like EGR and sticking VNT rack, but these are not too difficult to fix and the engines have been around long enough that they are now properly debugged. they are not as smooth as the TDCIs but the cars are a better proposition for the man who pays his own way.
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for a reliable diesel I like the VAG group PD engines.
I'm not up on which VW diesel is which, but a colleague has a 2004 Touareg 2.5 diesel (straight 5, I think) with 80K (so not huge) miles which is very difficult to start when cold.
He's spent £1000 already at a VW dealer and an indie is saying it could be one of several things and the best bet is to fit a new engine!
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I have seen four year old CR cars scrapped because of fuel systems fault something I >>have never seen on a petrol injection car. |The faults are just more difficult and >>expensive to fix there is not necessarily more than on any other car.
I think the complexity of many modern cars means similar problems can arise i.e. cost a lot to fix things.... so the principle of a CR diesel being expensive to put right if it goes wrong can easily be replicated in any other area.
e.g. my car has had a problem with the mirrors (power fold can stick, then the 4 way adjustment packed up); 10 yr old Jag S Type, 4 way electric mirrors, heated, power folding. There are apparently 4 different types and 2 likely problems, one of which would need the Jag computer to re-set things. My Jag independent told me to 'leave it be' as it would cost too much (car only worth about £2.5K) as they charge £75 per hour..but I can't, it annoys me and if it annoys me long enough i'll have to get rid of it..and that'll mean at least a £15K - £20K upgrade, I know what i'm like...so I told my mechanic who usually fettles my old Triumph to sort it however long it took and within reason however much it cost (i'm keeping the car for good). Eventually after an auto electrician mate of his had a quick look, tried and failed, I said right get two new ones. How much for two new complete door mirrors from a main dealer? ...over a £1,000...which is frankly ridiculous, no wonder our insurance premiums are so bad. The Jag main dealer's parts man said they only sell them for insurance jobs. Fortunately my mechanic has had the auto electrician back for a proper booked appointment and it and other minor stuff's been done for £375.
If you buy a car for the right price and intend to keep it for a while, sadly £1,000 for some form of repair in the next few years isn't that out of the way, is it.
Edited by Westpig on 29/11/2009 at 07:08
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I've just checked the ford website in Spain. I can buy a 2003 Mondeo 2ltr diesel with 403,000km on the clock for 4,500 euros...
Ford Mondeo Ghia
5-puerta Turismo
Otro 2000 cc Diesel
403.000 Km
4.500 euros
2003
15705 SANTIAGO DE COMPOSTELA
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I've just checked the ford website in Spain. I can buy a 2003 Mondeo 2ltr diesel with 403 000km on the clock for 4 500 euros...
I know used cars are a lot dearer everywhere else, but that seems extreme.
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I know used cars are a lot dearer everywhere else but that seems extreme.
It's cheaper to buy a new car here at the moment, than to buy second hand.
There is no used car market as such - just individuals and small traders. Add in the fact that cars are LHD so could be sold / driven anywhere in Europe, plus the high import duties and registration taxes - and the effect of low supply vs high demand soon kicks in.
Plus the fact that they're all greedy bug-gers out here!
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Add in the fact that cars are LHD so could be sold / driven anywhere in Europe
>>
There's a story on here of someone who sold a Mondeo on eBay to a guy in Poland. He flew over and drove the car back, where, he expalined it would be converted to LHD and sold for a profit. I thought that was remarkable!
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I work closely with an Italian company. One of my colleagues from Italy was over here recently and at our house. He's looking for a new Panda for his wife. I did suggest a dog or a cat but apparently her mind is set.
Anyway, we got to discussing car prices and he was astonished at how cheaply we can buy cars here by comparison to Italy. We haven't got very far down the investigative road but it seems on the face of it to be worth trying to figure out if there is some way of saving him some money by sourcing a new LHD Fiat here and me driving it down on my next trip. Clearly it will be fraught with problems re taxes, getting a LHD etc but it might still work out better for him.
If we do manage to unscramble that challenge I'll report back of course.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 28/11/2009 at 22:20
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Humph,
Just don't take a diesel - you'll only get ticked off again by that bolshie mechanic. :)
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Heh heh !
Should probably start another thread on the Panda thing.......It just sort of came to me that I'd promised to look into it. Apologies for topic quantum leap.....
;-)
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The problem is Humph, the left-hookers in the UK are almost as expensive as they are in mainland Europe. There are some LHD centres, check them out, you'll be shocked.
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See you on t'other thread Dave.....
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...anyroads...
Saltybrian? I can recommend a Mondeo. I'm truly sorry I parted company with mine, I had a minor fuelling problem that could possibly in the future (tho' unlikely) have went major but I blinked first and px'ed it. For a petrol Mazda, which is quite nice, but...
I miss the combination of economy and power, and I had an estate- huge, huge load area. Best car I've ever had, hands down. The urge it had was phenomenal. Some things can go wrong with them, but there are bazillions out there doing a turn, problem free.
To reiterate:
-go to a good dealer, that way you have some comfort under the Sale of Goods Act
-FSH, documented, check it over thoroughly
-there are loads around, so be choosy. If its scruffy walk away
-test drive thoroughly, and hear it start from cold, if poss
-get a post 2003 model, as the legend is that thats where they became more reliable
-STRONGLY consider a warranty- £20+ quid a month- and check the small print for exclusions
Enjoy!
tt
Edited by theterranaut on 29/11/2009 at 09:54
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wow - this is a really active forum. thanks a million for all replies.
The warranty suggestion looks a good one, I'll certainly investigate that.
I'm looking to spend £2-4k - While I know that anything 2nd hand is not guaranteed -is there anything in the same class as a diesel mondeo around those prices that's less likely to cause any serious problems?
Cheers,
Brian
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...in the same class as a diesel mondeo around those prices that's less likely to cause any serious problems?...
A petrol one - without trying to be flippant.
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yes, well, i actually tested a Y reg 2 litre zetec petrol the other day, and it was really nice, but i'll swear i could actually see the fuel gauge moving.
What kind of mpg should i expect on these? i know the quoted figures, but how do these reflect in real life? I'm based in Orkney, and as such regular day to day running doesn't amount to particularly high mileages, but I expect to do a run monthly down mainland scotland - anything from 250 - 500 miles. if the petrol one gave more impressive miles on the longer trip, maybe i should look at it again, but in the test drive around the isles (we've got about 40 miles of road before you have to turn back!) it looked really thirsty, and i was also unimpressed by the road tax costs.
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...tested a Y-reg 2litre zetec petrol...
Saltybrian,
You've only just mentioned your budget.
All the comments relate to the common rail TDCi engine, which was not introduced until around 2002.
A Y-reg diesel, for example, would be a TDDI - that one letter makes all the difference.
The TDDI was a previous, previous generation engine, slow - noisy, and more at home in a tractor.
So if you are looking at cars eight or so years and older, the decision is made for you - it has to be petrol.
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No - it was a petrol one i tested the other day. I'm aware of the TDDI TDCI thing. It was the TDCI I was asking about as I've seen a few of these in my budget too. Thought I'd add some context ie mileages etc to see if folks thought the petrol was a more viable option, or if I'd still save on a diesel in my circumstances ie
better mpg / lower road tax on a TDCI vs high road tax / higher fuel bill / potentially less problems on a 2l petrol
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I ran a 2L Petrol Mondeo III Zetec estate for nearly 4 years and 60K miles and it was almost completely trouble free. From memory it gave low to mid 30s MPG and would get around 38MPG on a run. It was surprisingly fast and coped with loads well (although perhaps not as well as the TDCi I'd concede). I didn't consider the 1.8 Petrol because I was getting and estate, I'm not sure there's a huge difference in the economy or running costs though ?
My personal experience of VAG PD engines is that I'd advise avoiding the 2.0Ltr and especially the 170PS version with DPF, however the 1.9PD is (as others have described) a much better bet.
Edited by idle_chatterer on 29/11/2009 at 23:48
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>>I expect to do a run monthly down mainland Scotland - anything from 250 - 500 miles.
280 miles from Scrabster, (Orkney ferry arrival point for those who never venture north of the M4), one way to the central belt, very little of it economical motorway cruise. Doing this on a monthly basis in a petrol car the size of a Mondeo would be wallet emptying. A diesel, preferably with a known history and a warranty sounds like the best option.
Edited by Old Navy on 29/11/2009 at 13:39
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I'm looking to spend £2-4k - While I know that anything 2nd hand is not guaranteed -
I have got a 2002 Ghia X TDCi 130, its been sitting on the drive for the last month (but for a 10 mile run each Sunday) because I have a company car again, very reluctant to sell because it is not worth much though is a stonking car, great to drive, with climate, elec sunroof etc etc. I have had it since new (though second keeper because it was registered to my company), 139k miles, still drives as new, loads of torque, I have driven lots of diesels and have still to find a 4cyl that beats this for refinement, it simply goes when you put you foot down with no rumbling or gruffness. Yes if the HP pump were to fail it would be pricey though it has been run on premium diesel, Ultimate/V-Power and there are 000's of TDCi Mondeos, Transits etc with 00's of 000's of trouble free miles on them.
I might give it to a family member rather than sell for peanuts though I need to transfer my plate off it (been on it since new).
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there you go Salty, make Cheddar a decent offer....and you're up and running
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In the £2-4k bracket I wouldnt have any CR diesel, you will find the guys that work on these cars daily will say the same. Locally we probably have as many VAG TDIs (PD) as Fords with TDCI. I have yet to see a PD with major problems that we can't sort out for a few hundred max, but we are on the phone at least 3 times a week to the Ford dealer for parts for TDCI. Some of them defeat us and get sent to a local diesel specialist. The Ford pumps and injectors are marginal. Now that VAG have gone to CR we are hearing of problems with them, the local VW dealer is changing a lot of injectors on the CR engines under warranty (symptom is misfiring) and lot of DPF gremlins on some cars.
For £2-4k if you want a Mondeo get a 1.8 petrol, if you want a diesel get an Octavia 1.9PD. Why risk money on something that is so potentially expensive to fix when there are lower risk alternatives that are just as good.
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diesel get an Octavia 1.9PD. Why risk money on something that is so potentially expensive to fix when there are lower risk alternatives that are just as good.
Even if they are lower risk, questionable at least and needing costly cambelt changes, a PD Octavia simply does not compare, the Mondeo is infinitely more refined, much more punchy and just as economical, not to mention handling etc etc.
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...there you go Salty, make Cheddar a decent offer....and you're up and running...
Humph won't keep Betsy for ever...on second thoughts, he might.
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Personally, I don;'t think it's worth the risk unless you're going to be doing more than 20k miles PA.
You'd then have a fuel bill of around £2,000 a year for a diesel and about £3000 for a petrol.
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Refinement is not an issue at the purchase price in question - there are more important factors.
The VAG PD is one of the few efficient diesels which will run for starship mileages without major problems. The fuel system is all Bosch - the best you can get - and the all-important roller followers for the pump elements operate in engine oil, not fuel. The only common problems with this engine are MAF sensors and stuck VNT linkages in the turbocharger. Both are cheaply fixable if you avoid the dealers.
Delphi have never managed to match the consistency of Bosch in the manufacture of injectors (M-B are presently learning all about this). Bosch injectors can be fitted "out of the box by part number" to any relevant engine as they are all made to very narrow limits. Delphi injectors have to be coded to a particular engine. The quality of the HP pumps can most politely be descibed as "variable" - fine if you get a good one - as many people do.
VAG also have far more sophisticated control software which detects engine acceleration between firings and adjusts fuelling to suit. The boost pressure is also controlled in a closed loop which includes the engine, so the boost actuator does not need a position transducer and other electronics mounted in a stupidly hostile place. A vac capsule is all that is needed.
In my view, all of these things conspire to make the VAG PD a very much better long term proposition - operating within the law of averages. Of course, you might strike lucky with the Ford but the odds are against it.
If you shop for a PD, make sure it has had the correct oil put into it.
659.
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Chip and a shoulder comes to mind whenever you mention Delphi 659.
VAG also have far more sophisticated control software which detects engine acceleration between firings and adjusts fuelling to suit. >>
To the contrary, a CR system enables injector timing to be completely independent of cycle because the rail is constantly at pressure rather than the short pulse cam induced injection pressure of a PD system thus enabling pre injection to control knock etc etc. The reason why VAG have dumped PD in favour of CR.
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I'm sorry, you're mistaken.
The PD system will allow fuel to be injected at almost 2000 Bar at any time the engine needs it for normal combustion. This covers the entire range of engine speeds and injection timings. Don't confuse static and dynamic timing adjustments.
What the PD system cannot do is provide fuel for DPF regeneration. For this, fuel has to be injected with the exhaust valve open in order for it to be subsequently burnt (with the soot) in the DPF.
Of course, this fuel does no useful work whatever and lowers engine efficiency and increases the CO2 output.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 29/11/2009 at 22:45
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>>I'm sorry, you're mistaken.>>
CR offers much more sophisticated control of injection with refinement and efficiency in mind as VAG now recognise.
Edited by cheddar on 30/11/2009 at 22:55
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hi again. i'm not tech savvy enough to follow the last few posts, so sorry for no reaction. instead - another question! :) i've seen a tddi for sale, done 130000. now, i know these are vastly inferior to tdci s performance-wise, but how are they for the problems as discussed above? would this be a compromise between the car and potential costs?
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I know you are now looking at a tddi, but just to return to the original posting, I run a 53 plate 1.8 petrol mondeo and went through the same tdci vs petrol questioning before buying it last year. I'm a diesel fan, having had years of hassle free motoring from a 1.9 xud zx previously, but the posts on here about cr diesel problems made me wary. I know there are thousands of them on the road and they cant be all bad, but I dont have the money for a new one and was worried about buying a used tdci that the previous owner was trying to offload. I also ran a previous version 1.8 petrol mondeo for 8 years with no problems whatsoever, so that influenced my decision I guess.
I do around 20k per year, most of it 65-70 dual carriageway/m-way and have got 40.5 mpg ave over last 6000miles (brim to brim calcs). I know a diesel would burn less fuel, but the petrol one was a lot cheaper to buy and is less likely to need a wallet busting engine repair, so I wouldn't rule out a petrol one just yet.
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To me this thread displays the lunacy of diesels with DPF. Whilst they may be fine in the early years, what happens if they get older? Generally older cars do not do the same mileages as new ones, so are unsuitable for this.
Take Cheddars excellent Mondeo, which is now sitting on the drive and does not get much work. This is fine and no problem at all. But what about if that Mondeo had a DPF? He just could not do that without worrying about regeneration.
DinUK
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Take Cheddars excellent Mondeo which is now sitting on the drive and does not get But what about if that Mondeo had a DPF? He just could not do that without worrying about regeneration.
If you don't do enough miles, don't buy a diesel with DPF?
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>>If you don't do enough miles, don't buy a diesel with DPF?
No, it is: if you don't do enough miles IN 5 YEARS TIME, don't buy a diesel with DPF.
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If you don't do enough miles don't buy a diesel with DPF?
That means there's going to be virtually no secondhand demand for diesels with a dpf - therefore they'll be worthless.
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...No, it is: if you don't do enough miles IN 5 YEARS TIME, don't buy a diesel with DPF. ....
It's not quantity of miles that matters, it's 'quality'.
A DPF car could do only a couple of hundred miles a month provided some of those miles were done with enough revs to cause regeneration.
No car likes being stood idle, but Ford DPFs are no bother at all if used correctly.
I've had no problems with mine, can't even tell when it's regenerating.
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