See also
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/Cara...3
Just been through this and we have trailer/mini-excavator combinations on hire where the trailer has been de-rated because at its normal plated weight it cannot be towed by a 3.5T transit (3500kg van plus 3500kg trailer = 7000kg against max train of 6000kg for the van (some only 5750kg))
There are separate issues to address
First - plated weights which govern what you can drive (driving license categories).
Second - actual weights.
We have combinations where the plated weights allow them to run but NOT with both trailer and towing vehicle loaded to its maximum!
I cannot drive an 18T lorry which unladen weighs less than 7.5T because license categories apply to plated weight, not actual weight. (IIRC Chris Ewbank drives his lorry on a car license because it is not PLATED at the normal weight) If your license does not cover you neither does your insurance. Same applies for car/van-trailer combinations.
You may want to consider getting a 3.5T trailer plated down so you get the strength of the "bigger" trailer and can still tow it with your vehicle of choice.
Edited by ijws15 on 02/11/2009 at 12:43
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If your vehicle is involved in serious collision whilst towing a trailer with a higher plated weight than was allowed, I'm sure VOSA or someone would be all over the wreckage with a fine toothed comb to find out if this was in any way contributory to the incident. Insurance would probably see it as a reason to back out too.
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Could you have the situation where you could legally tow a trailer if it were loaded on a trailer, but not tow it directly?
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just a quick note.
if you are towing the trailer for comercial purposes and the combined weight of tow-er+trailer+load exceeds 3.5 tonnes you will need to have and use a tachograph.
if you are only doing it for personal use you should be ok but you might get some interest from vosa.
are you racing the car you want to transport? does that count as commercial or personal use?
something about hire or reward is ringing a bell somewhere but i can't remember the exact wording.
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I'm rather surprised that no-one has yet given a definitive answer... rather worrying considering the number of people who tow things out there!
Can the OP confirm what sort of vehicle he will be loading on the trailer (car make and weight) as I tend to think some of the comments re HGV, etc licences may not be aplicable...
Edited by b308 on 02/11/2009 at 17:28
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Also need the weight of tow car solo and MAM.
Not surprised at the lack of definitive answer, when I looked all but 2 of our 11 combinations were outside the rules for one reason or another!
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Unfortunately I too have to be a bit vague about the numbers although the basis of my original question remains the same. I have not done the trailer test since my licence is more than 30 years old and still a 'proper' paper one. Without passing my 76-year-old modified car over a weighbridge I am guessing it is much the same as the rival MG M-type Midget at around 750 kg. I am looking at a flat-bed trailer that can double for use with a house and garden renovation carrying rubble, soil, turf etc. The 14-feet one I would like weighs 575 kg unladen but is plated at 2500 kg. Even with a few spares and tools thrown in (and a spare trailer wheel) total car-laden weight including trailer is unlikely to exceed 1400 kg. However, the dealer I visited said I could not legally take the trailer away unless I had a towing vehicle rated to tow the full plated weight of the trailer. I asked if he really meant the empty trailer weighing 575 kg and he said 'yes'. Since I had planned to take the trailer away (if bought) with a Suzuki Jimny and eventually tow the car-laden trailer with a Freelander 2 I was stumped in two ways. Land Rover quote 2000 kg maximum towing capacity for the Freelander but the Jimny handbook is wonderfully vague in saying you are limited to 450 kg unless there is a greater officially-permissible maximum "in your country". In the UK this would mean 750 kg for an unbraked trailer which seems fine for getting me home with a braked trailer and well within the 85% guidance usually cited. The Jimny weighs 1105 kg at the kerb with a gross vehicle weight of 1420 kg. One of the websites carrying specifications lists it as having a braked towing capacity of 1300 kg which I very much doubt. I should point out the dealer knew none of this detail and his only point was that I had to have a tow vehicle at his premises rated by the manufacturer for the plated weight of the trailer.
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So your licence would probably read the same as mine if re-issued as a photocard
B + E would cover you - no limit to ttrailer weight by the license.
Towing vehicle would limit the weight so you would need the trailer downplating to 2000kg to tow it with the Freelander (Speak to VOSA to see what you need to do).
Sounds like you can't even tow it empty with the Jimny - is there any other information on the VIN plate? The only way that the 450kg would differ in the UK is if Suzuki confirmed it to be different. Weights allowed by driving licenses are different to manufacturers specified towing weights, the trailer / vehicle plated weights have to be within your license categories AND within the towing vehicle permitted weights.
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Just checked Suzuki GB website which says 1300 kg braked and a very low 350 kg unbraked for the Jimny. Part of the attraction in buying now is 10% off list and lower VAT but I am having a rethink towards a smaller 1000 kg trailer for my immediate renovation needs and postponing the car trailer until it becomes an absolute necessity.
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What's all this 'Plated' business? If you build your own it doesn't have a 'plate' Ive built several and incidentally they are all perfectly safe!
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If your vehicle is involved in serious collision whilst towing a trailer with a higher plated weight than was allowed I'm sure VOSA or someone would be all over the wreckage with a fine toothed comb to find out if this was in any way contributory to the incident. Insurance would probably see it as a reason to back out too.
But we have just been told that allowed plated weight determines the driving licence requirement, not the vehicle.
So combing the wreckage would have no purpose if the offence was licence-related.
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We recently had a driver pulled for overweight (both van and trailer) by VOSA. Either they didn't pick up, or didn't care, that the trailer plated weight was too high for the van (3500kg transit plus 3500kg trailer but 6000kg MAM of Transit).
As I mave mentioned - there is the option of down plating the trailer (i.e. designed as 3500kg but plated at 2000kg). Means you can't take it up to 3500kg (althogh it would cope) but would allow you to tow it with the Freelander.
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Spoke to some of the HGV drivers where I work.
They are all of the opinion that provided you do not exceed either the maximum weight for the trailer, the maximum towing weight for the vehicle or the maximum trainweight for the combination, then you are not breaking the rules.
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look at a Brian James trailer
We have one here plated at 2000kg( which is now pretty standard for vans to legally tow)
It only weighs 450kg
therefore a payload of 1550kg, a wee honey to tow too
i think they do lighter ones too, or, if not get it plated to your desired limit
as far as I am aware they have designed around your ( and other similar) requirments
I got a couple of 3500kg Ifor Williams downplated to 2000kg
removed 3500plate affixed 2000kg plate,which was ordered through the dealer, the only downside is the loss of payload as the 3500kg trailer is much heavier built, than a 2000kg one
Otherwise it is simples really
Plated weights RULE
Edited by dieseldogg on 03/11/2009 at 15:46
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Did you have to make any changes to the coupling so the brakes were applied with lower deceleration forces, or was it just a case of fitting the new plate?
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I must admit thats what I thought the rules were as well... as long as the all up weight of the trailer and load doesn't exceed the towing weight of the tow vehicle then you are ok... That 450kg for the Jimny sounds like the unbraked towing weight btw...
(post refers to Wrench's post!)
Edited by b308 on 03/11/2009 at 15:49
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I would add that the big local supplier of Iw trailers locally recounted to me the story of a man from Donegal (not really relevent) coming to collect a trailer
a 16' triple axle if I recall.
Anyway he cautioned the purchaser that his towbar was really too low and that the yoke was very likely to be unstable, so be careful.
Yer man sets off
about 20min later the dealer gets a ph call
would you come and pull us outta the hedge
no real harm done other than dented tin & pride
HOWEVER
in our current claim conscious culture "yer man" could have held the dealer liable for letting him leave his yard with an unsafe combination.
jat
M
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Was hoping somebody would be able to provide a link to something that clearly states what the laws are, but it seems nobody does know the actual rules!
It appears to me that there may well be some EU directive that states that the towing vehicle must be rated to or higher than the maximum allowable weight of the trailer, but I'm not sure if this covers the UK?
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I will take a look and see what I can find
however I am not good at posting links
But basically current car licence ( since 1997)
veh not exceeding 3500kg plus a 750kg trailer
HOWEVER if the trailer is heavier than 750kg
The total combined mass of veh and trailer must not exceed 3500kg
So in theory max 1750kg tlr, leaves 1750kg for the vehicle
If the weight of the tlr is not to exceed that of the towing veh
seems reasonable
Except the vehicles towing limits must be adhered to as well
most larger family type cars rarely exceed 1600kg towing capacity
but then the max weight of the car/towing veh must be taken into account ( as I understand it)in the case of a van or commercial veh this would be the "plated weight"
I reckoned about 1200kg would be about the limit
cheers
M
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The car brochure generally state what tlr weight is allowed
PLUs
erm actually there is a plate on private cars as well
my Galaxy says 2400kg and 4000kg,( plus max allowed axle weights)
ie max weight of the car allowed is 2400kg
and max gross train weight is 4000, ie car plus trailer
less 2400 = 1600kg tlr
This is Ok for me being an old "blue" licence holder limited to 8250kg ( used to be 12000kg, sniff)
BUT for a post 1997 licence holder
3500kg limit less 2400kg for the Galaxy in this case
=1100kg tlr
simples
really
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Look at the directgov webside
I searched for "plated weights"
it was one of the first listed
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Also look under appropriate heading in
www.practicalcaravan.com
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Yes, totally agree with all you have said Dieseldogg, but the question here is not of licencing or the towing weights for a particular vehicle.
It is whether or not you are breaking the law buy towing a trailer that is rated to a higher amount than the towing vehicle.
Very simply if you tow an empty 3,500 KGS (MAM) trailer weighting let's say only 800 KGS with a car capable of towing 2,000 KGS, are you breaking the law?
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Very simply if you tow an empty 3 500 KGS (MAM) trailer weighting let's say only 800 KGS with a car capable of towing 2 000 KGS are you breaking the law?
Very simply - YES
Would VOSA or the police care - probably not unless you were in an accident.
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Very simply, NO.
It is possible that the stated gross train weight is less than the sumof >> the stated maximum permissible laden weight of the towing vehicle and the stated maximum permissible >> laden trailer weight. In this case the towing vehicle and the trailer must be loaded >> such that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit and the sum of both >> does not exceed the maximum gross train weight. >> >> www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/require...s
As already quoted.
Note that it talks about LOADING the trailer and the car in such a way as not to exceed the limits. It doesn't refer to the maximum loading the trailer is theoretically capable of, but the ACTUAL loading you are putting on it.
So by my reading of that passage, you can tow an empty 10 tonne trailer with a car as long as the actual weight of the trailer doesn't exceed the limit on the car or your driving licence.
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I will look up that reference in a wee minute
But I cannot feel but that this is incorrect or at least subject to misinterperation
This would mean I could hop into an artic tractor unit and drive it as long as it was not connected to a trailer
BUT i can NOT
because it is plated at 44 tonne
regardless of the empty weight, being less than 7500kg
or even an empty rigid lorry, say a 16tonner
hey as long as its kerb weight does not exceed 7500kg I can drive it
Answer is NO
cos the plated weight is above my licence class
I had this succiently and clearly explained over a phone from the DoE guy who stands in the witness box at Court and takes these prosceutions.
It Is Always the "plated weight"
otherwise the regulations would an unworkable nonsense
cheerrs
M
Ps that towcar site really does not help
as they incorrectly I feel
only take the kerbweight??? of the car into account.
I ran a couple of examples
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I will attempt to paste the relevant paragraph
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In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer.
For M1 category vehicles (motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer. Alternatively, the vehicle manufacturer may provide a maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle). If this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger.
The maximum laden weight of a trailer which may be towed by a light goods vehicle depends on both the stated gross train weight of the towing vehicle (GTW) and the vehicle manufacturer's recommended maximum permissible trailer weight. Neither the maximum permissible trailer weight or the maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle) should be exceeded. It is possible that the stated gross train weight is less than the sum of the stated maximum permissible laden weight of the towing vehicle and the stated maximum permissible laden trailer weight. In this case the towing vehicle and the trailer must be loaded such that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit and the sum of both does not exceed the maximum gross train weight.
It is not a requirement to display a notice of the unladen weight of the trailer or the towing vehicle, unless the towing vehicle is either a motor tractor or a locomotive, as defined in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.
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Well blow me down
That longest paragraph as above does appear to state that it is permissible to legally tow an overweight trailer ( based on plated weights) as long as the payload is reduced such that the max actual weight does not exceed any stated upper weight limits for either (i) the trailer or (ii) the towing vehicle or the combination thereof.
Hmmmm
Furthur research is need since this may benefically affect us at work.
Now that would be REALLY odd
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The long paragraph just quoted contains the shorter section I just quoted, from someone else way back in this thread.
The artic tractor argument is a good one, but it imposes a limitation by virtue of the driver's LICENCE. The long paragraph just quoted is based on VEHICLE limits, not driver limits. So it appears that as long as the driver has a licence to cover the plated weight of the trailer, he can tow it with a lower weight vehicle as long as the actual weight limits are not exceeded.
There appear to be two separate requirements here - driver's licence and vehicle/trailer weights.
Which comes back to saying that with an older-style licence I can tow a big trailer as long as it is unloaded.
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For car drivers, I understand it comes down to a loophole in the licence law for people who passed their test before 1997.
for pre 1997 licences - I believe you can tow a trailer as long as the actual weight of the trailer is within the limits of the towing car.
for 1997 onwards licences who have not sat the separate trailer test (ie. most people), the loophole was closed, and the maximum plated weight of the trailer comes into play. The rules are quite complex, but the best explation of them that I've found is on the Ifor Williams site here: www.iwt.co.uk/brochures/ltt.pdf
Assuming the driver is in line with the licence restrictions, then there are the rules associated with the car wieghts - there is a maximum train weight specified for the car. I believe that this is measured by the actual trailer weight.
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Nope.
I am a pre 1997 car licence holder
per 1997 i could drive up to 7.5tonne & tow 4.5tonne, GTW being 12,000kg
or simplistically tow a 3.5 tonne trailer behind a 7.5 tonne lorry
the 4.5tonne trailer requiring air brakes as opposed to overrun ones
post 1997 my licence was capped at a GTW of 8250kg
being a 7500kg truck/van etc plus a 750kg tlr or indeed a 4750kg veh towing a 3500kg tlr
The only difference is that the post 1997 car licence drivers are limited to 3500kg plus 750kg tlr = 4250 GTW.
And if the tlr is heavier than 750kg
the licenced GTW is REDUCED to 3500kg
Simples
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Very simply if you tow an empty 3 500 KGS (MAM) trailer weighting let's say only 800 KGS with a car capable of towing 2 000 KGS are you breaking the law?
Very simply - YES
OK, but where can I find wording to that effect please? All the official websites are not very clear and the interpretation (of several posts here) is that you are NOT breaking the law.
Would VOSA or the police care - probably not unless you were in an accident.
No, but this is exactly why I'm keen to observe the laws.... because you never know what's around the corner.
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Very simply if you tow an empty 3 500 KGS (MAM) trailer weighting let's say only 800 KGS with a car capable of towing 2 000 KGS are you breaking the law?
If you're towing on a car license which you've had since before 1997, I believe you are legal.
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Well I think I have found the definative answer... finally!
From "Towing and the Law" published by The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders limited:
It is strongly recommended that a driver does not tow a partly-laden trailer if the trailer's plated weight is greater than that of the manufacturer's maximum towed weight for the proposed towing vehicle. This is because of the risk of accidentally exceeding the vehicle manufacturer's limit and so operating illegally and unsafely even if the trailer's own maximum unladen weight is not exceeded.
So that's good enough for me. Not recommended, but not illegal.
Not sure about the last "unladen"... do the mean laden?
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Of course, you could have a trailer plated within the limit of the vehicle, and accidently overlaod it, exceeding the manufacturers limit and so operate illegally and unsafely. It's as broad as it is long.
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Of course you could have a trailer plated within the limit of the vehicle and accidently overlaod it exceeding the manufacturers limit and so operate illegally and unsafely. It's as broad as it is long.
Not at all and you must be missing the whole point of this thred.
The hypothosis here was that just by using an unladen trailer that is plated above the limit of the vehicle you are breaking the law.
Of course you are breaking the law by exceeding the manuacturers limts, but that applies to ANY vehicle.
Quite a lot longer there than it is broad I'd say.
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