A few (well quite a few) years ago I was talking to a guy who owned one of the electronic tuning places that used to exist.
He told me that he had a problem with people who turned up with a misfiring car and wanted it sorted. The car would be hooked up to the machine, 5 minutes later it was fixed, and they were given the bill. Cue ranting and raving about "how much for 5 minutes work".
After getting fed up with this he redesigned the layout of the workshop, so the customer couldn't see where the car was being worked on. Same procedure as before operated, except after being fixed in 5 minutes, there was then a 55 minute delay before the car was returned to the customer, who was happy to pay the reasonable bill.
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Altarf i learnt a long time ago never to fix a problem in front of a customer unless its suits you because if you do they dont understand the "its not having the hammer its where to hit it syndrome" to this end if i get a warranty claim i always insist the car is left with me for the day and i use all the day ,this way you get a teensy weensy little bit more respect when theyve had their routines upset
For the record codes reads can do more harm than good and if more garages went back to basics sometimes and did simple things like compression tests,test drives,vacuum tests and or sniff tests then unless its modern modern techno crap experiance will lead you to the fault much quicker and simpler than plugging many machines in that can only read that the customer had been pulling plugs off and on in the vain hope of fixing it themselves, but obviously the customers dont tell you they have done this when lean bank 1 shows on the garage thingameejig as that would be showing them up as bafoons
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I`ve always remembered ex REME - Master Mechanic Ain****** puffing out his cheeks like one of those ;-) The Old Man almost inserted his own spanner up him at that reaction - because..
Aged 14 yrs I had spotted that the screws on a Victor tappet cover were full of road grime - excluding the possibility of the cover being removed. Yet the tick was in the box for tappet adjustment.
The Old Man bought me a socket set at that point and the cars never went to a garage again for regular servicing.
I`ve written this before and am stuck in a groove like a damaged record... How do you forget these personal slights and let go?
Perhaps it`s difficult because these situations are institutionalised behaviour, considered normal within the trade - but still an slight to Human decency in the everyday struggle of a normal persons life.
Unless a Politician or Banker of course - in which case trade `tricks` will be insignificant chicken feed amongst greater greed of the bigger fish and shamelesnes of grasping from others. Much as a saffron robed group of Monks wearing gold wristwatches (and looking at more) were seen drooling in the big Swiss watchmakers show shops in Manila.
Yes, that did happen. A stunned SWMBO whispered " I thought they were not into materialism"
Nor tappets either I bet...
;-)
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Oily have you considered writing a book..seriously, you could and should, and i want a singed copy.;)
Being a technophobe, i've stayed well away from much that is new in the car world.
I would imagine there's more like me than the likes of Oily and others here who seem to understand how these modern things run, and avidly seek information, and know how to implement it.
Even something as mundane as changing a headlamp bulb or jump starting a modern car is fraught with danger, not to the diyer particularly but to inadvertantly causing expensive damage to apparenly fragime components...now whether that fear is founded or i'm a gullible reciever of manufacturers propaganda on such things i know no.
When i was involved in car maintenance years ago, i found invaluable the autodata books of the time, but once dwell angle became redundant i lost all interest, probably too late to catch up now.
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I read the comments with interest.....and thinking about all the smoke and mirrors about how too much information is dangerous yada yada.....
If the car displayed any fault codes, most people are smart enough to go look em up in the online database (which should also be made available...by law). Cynics might say manufacturers will say refer to dealer, but once the info is in the public domain, sites will spring up explaining these codes for the Layman. OK so they may be mechanical dunces, but at least it's going to give them some information and perhaps indication of seriousness...
This way people can make a value judgement when to take it too the professionals and also be a little more informed as to the possible problem, rather than completely at the mercy of the Garage.
Me I can't see the problem and the fact that it is not routinely done on all modern cars speaks volumes.
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What I would much rather see is some more standardisation of fault codes and live data protocols. Yes, we have some basic commonality for engines, but, we have none for other chassis and body systems, and the commonised engine codes are, more often than not misleading.
Giving motorists easy access to fault codes and fault code descriptions would only increase the number of parts incorrectly "diagnosed" and fitted, and would only help the manufacturer's parts departments.
Fault codes, while they help the intelligent, only blind and mystify the dumb majority.
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I take the point about there being more to diagnosis & repair than code reading, but that's the problem from my point of view; 60 - 80 quid just gets the codes read, it doesn't buy you fault finding to component level -ifit was the latter it would be a bargain!
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>>60 - 80 quid just gets the codes read
Hqave you seen the cost of diagnostic equipment, software and information updates, and training?
You would not give it away after you'd paid so much for it either.
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It would be interesting to know how much a Tech2 costs; I can only find 3rd party equivalents on the 'net for 4K USD. I'm led to believe it's much cheaper to get your codes read in Eire but I can't find an online Opel dealer price list to verify that either. :-/
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almost a car related answer here:
Royal enfield motorcycles (india) have been making the same engine since 1955 , but have been forced to go down the fuel injection line.
knowing that the home market would not pay for diagnostics , they set a LED on the cascette (dashboard in car terms) , after turning the ign key "x" times , the LED will flash the code , of a promlem
ie: 1 = you are out of petrol
nice n simple does it all the time ,
the system was developed by bosch
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>>the LED will flash the code
Lots of older vehicle systems had something similar;
older Vauxhalls could blink fault codes after shorting pins with a paperclip
Fords could blink codes after plgging in an LED
Mercedes Benz could blink codes after plugging in an LED, and on some, you could set the mixture with a dwell meter
and so on....
In many ways, we have had a bit of backward step - now you cqan get much more live data out, but, you need kit to do it. Cheap kit might help, but might mislead, and proper kit costs proper money.
Spamcan - after paying that sort of money for Tech2, what would you charge for using it?
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The garages I have used (apart from Mazda) will credit this diagnostic fee if they carry out the work.
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Depends what its operational lifetime is, maybe 30 quid a go - just for code reading mind you, none of the difficult fault diagnosis stuff.
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Why not display a message on dash [may be a cryptic code] and then put the code on manufacturers website to know what was the full & descriptive error message?
Sure it can be done. But dealer will loose £50-£80 revenue for decoding same message.
Edited by movilogo on 28/09/2009 at 00:53
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Its all a bit of a fraud.
These days the car companies are trying to stuff as much as possible into software (the ECU) instead of mechanical.
Take for example common rail technology. The injectors used to be mechanical controlled and now they are controlled by the ECU (with various sensors dotted around the engine).
The problem is only going to get worse as technology moves on.
If (and when) electric cars become the normal almost everything in the 'engine bay' will be software controlled.
The whole idea (to me) is that the car dealers want to remove your average car garage (and diy mechanics) out of the equation so that any work can only be achieved only by the car dealer.
From my memory Ford started this with the Sierra (special spanner needed for the clutch adjustment)
It is a case of 'vendor lock in'. i.e. you are tied into the car dealer for the duration of your ownership of the car.
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The whole idea (to me) is that the car dealers want to remove your average car garage (and diy mechanics) out of the equation so that any work can only be achieved only by the car dealer.
its nothing to do with dealers - we hate working on anything older than about 5 years old! (which is stupid really - older cars need more work - equals more profit opportunities)
IMO its the manufacturers trying to sell new cars (make older ones expensive/impossible to repair)
That in itself is stupid - think of the profit opportunities in the sale of parts and technical info for the older cars........
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We hate working on anything older than about 5 years old!
(assuming you are a 'dealer') could this be because after 5 years many owners take their cars elsewhere after the warranty runs out?
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>>The problem is only going to get worse as technology moves on.
Cars have never been more reliable, or have needed less work doing to them - it's a non problem talked up by the Luddites who infest this site!
Special tools to keep dangerous DIY tinkerers out have a very long history, going back far earlier than the Sierra.
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In my experience even the main dealers don't understand the electronics in modern cars.
When my car started exhibiting hesitations and stalling recently the dealer replaced a sensor because that's what the computer said was wrong. However the car was still faulty and broke down again on the way home.
They had to get the manufacturer's engineer to examine the car and give them an idea of what to look for, which eventually turned out to be a loose connection somewhere. They only fixed that by accident when they examined the wiring loom and checked the connectors were seated correctly.
It's all well and good having the computers give diagnostic codes, but it relies on mechanics to interpret them properly and not simply apply the first solution they can think of.
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In my experience even the main dealers don't understand the electronics in modern cars.
I was going to say the exact same thing, and I think this is the real problem here. I have had direct experience with this with a Peugeot 306 which took ELEVEN dealer visits to cure a stalling fault. In the end, it was nothing to do with the ECU (which they said needed replacing as it wasn't logging a fault code), but a simple stepper motor with some dirt in it. A friend had an intermittent loss of power in a Corsa, which the dealer spent days (and about £1300 of her money) replacing a whole list of parts to cure, and still failed to fix properly. There are countless other examples I could rattle off.
It's all very well keeping out DIYers and tinkerers, but when you have systems that your own dealer network doesn't understand properly, and it adversely affects paying customers, you have to start questioning the fitness for purpose of the system. Look at the common rail diesel as a classic example.
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There have always been useless mechanics in all parts of the trade, and there probably always will be. Technology is simply highlighting an existing problem.
Fixing tricky faults is something that anyone who runs a dealership garage regards as a bit of an overhead. You can't charge much for the work, even though it needs the most expensive kit, and better brains than you generally have available to you.
Compare this with general servicing and brake work, and you can see that it would be madness to welcome fault finiding jobs into the workshop.
This links to the rip off mentality thread which is also running - the whole dealership / workshop setup is done to maximise the profit to the dealership. The labour time allowance given to the bonus incentivised mechanic is meagre for fault finding work, but, very generous for brake work. Now, as L'escargot says, people going into the trade may be just as honest as people in general, but, if you pay them poorly, and incentivise them strongly to upsell, it doesn't take a genius to see what the outcome will be.
So, most mechanics, on bonus, see a tricky fault finding job and simply fit something (anything!) to get the car off their ramp without ruining their prospects for earning bonus that day. Only a nutter under those conditions would start getting the wiring diagrams printed out, and get to grips with the problem.
Some garages do take a senior mechanic off bonus, and pay them a decent wage to fix these tricky faults, but, it's not all that common.
Recruiting good mechanics who have the mental toolkit required to get to grips with these systems is also, for understandable reasons problematic. Anyone who is any good can earn more money under better conditions in other jobs.
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Recruiting good mechanics who have the mental toolkit required to get to grips with these systems is also, for understandable reasons problematic. Anyone who is any good can earn more money under better conditions in other jobs.
One can't disagree with anything in your post NC, apart from your sympathy for the trade with its crooked suits and corrupted, incompetent wage slaves. What you don't say is where all this leaves the honest ignorant punter when his high-tech jalopy fails to live up to its promises, as some do.
I note from another thread that you are still making careless and incorrect use of the term Luddite. I take it as a tribute, bumface.
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>>apart from your sympathy for the trade
I hoped that I had simply explained what has happened, and had not expressed any sympathy for it. This systematic bias for the dealership, against the customer, using the boy/man on the lowest rung of the ladder as the pawn/scapegoat is awful practice, and not one that I support.
During my time in a dealer workshop, being single and having only the bar stewards of Burnley to maintain, I took a carefree attitude to bonus myself, and worked with a healthy negative number of hours against my name much to the annoyance of the dealer principal - I was much happier showing an apprentice the detailed meaning and interpretation of an ignition system's oscilloscope trace than I was in fitting yet more brake pads.
The motor trade has driven itself to the position where anyone who is any good or has any scruples gets out - I have no sympathy.
The honest ignorant punter would be best served by getting some books from the library, a basic toolkit from Halfords, and keeping well clear of the lot of them. However, failing that, finding a good independant is always worthwhile.
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I agree with that too. I know you know your stuff and don't suppose for a single moment that you have ever talked rubbish at a punter expecting them to believe it. I bet bell boy doesn't either except when driven beyond endurance.
But, NC, you appear in yr last post to be recommending honest ignorant punters to work on becoming - what was it? - 'dangerous interfering DIYers' or words to that effect. Perhaps so that they can monitor garages more effectively, but still... a little learning is a dangerous thing, what? I think you've said that here at some point.
We are all in this potentially ambiguous situation unless we are very rich or very mechanically (and electronically these days dammit) learned and talented. Ho hum.
:o}
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>>dangerous interfering DIYers'
Quite so.
One of the things which I think Haynes manuals now get absolutely right is in limiting the scope of novice DIYers. They do stop them doing more harm than good.
As an example, on a MB site where I visit, there's currently a discussion about fixing leaking injector pump delivery valves. I'm fairly bold in what I will take on, but, I worry a bit about DIYers opening injector pumps up in the open or in a dusty garage, and potentially ruining them, and so, I end up sounding caution. Knowing when to stop and put the spanners away is as much a part of the skills required as knowing when to pick them up in my opinion.
So, I don't have much trouble with the idea of DIYers doing some basic work. There are pitfalls DIYers are more prone to - overtightening smaller fasteners, over-tightening tappets, worrying far too much about oil grades but forgetting to put the sump plug back in, etc, etc. I've seen a few dangerous bits of DIY, but then, I've also seen dangerous results of garage work.
I would hope that DIYers (and many mechanics!) would soon graduate beyond the Haynes manuals, and pick up something a bit more advanced - the modern technology frequently bemoaned on here does yield to a slightly more academic approach than previous vehicle systems demanded. You cannot diagnose a system you don't understand.
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"I note from another thread that you are still making careless and incorrect use of the term Luddite. I take it as a tribute, bumface."
Well assuming that there are no British workers on this site old enough to have worked between 1811 and 1816 who rioted and destroyed labour saving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment, nor any followers of Edward Ludlam left alive, then we have the modern use of the term left, that being
"One who opposes technical or technological change"
Which, to be fair, describes some of the prevalent attitudes on this site, and therefore I feel is a valid use of the term by NC
Of course as a luddite you can dispute the modern use of the phrase.
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"One who opposes technical or technological change"
I certainly don't, and I haven't noticed anyone else doing that here. I have noticed people objecting to changes that don't work properly or cost a lot or don't seem necessary. They are quite right of course. Manufacturers should pay their own development costs, not hive them off onto hapless customers. You yourself AE, like many here, have denouced the diesel particulate filter in many applications as being insufficiently developed and a PITA.
Like one or two others here, I have a sentimental attachment to properly designed carburettors and reasonably efficient contact breaker ignition systems. The automobile has a history after all. Some don't care about that but others do (including, I would be willing to bet, you and NC both). But even those of us who could cope with those - unlike a majority of professional mechanics I seem to remember - don't claim that they were superior to decent modern arrangements. So that isn't Luddism either.
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" I certainly don't, and I haven't noticed anyone else doing that here"
You do and a considerable number on here do and its not based on fact or knowledge.
Sure some modern technolgies do go wrong. DPF is one of them, but I cant count the number of people who bleat "more technogolgy to go wrong" when ever a new thing is mentioned on cars.
You talk of cost? Brand new cars cost less in relative terms than they have ever done, and they get cheaper year by year.
What other technology goes wrong? Fuel injection? ECUs? Nope considerably less than the number of coils, points, worn distriubuters, knackered carbs, duff spark plugs, defective leads, balasts, etc etc etc.
On feb 5th 2010 at 07:30 on a frosty morning, stick your head of your window and see how many drivers are churning away on starter motors, cursing and swearing becaus ethe damn car wont start again. No-one I bet. Rewind to feb 5th 1970 at 07:30..... Plenty is what.
This ludistic attitide to any change on any car is prevalent throughout this site. Not just cars either.
My attidue to old technology? Well lets consider this. I cried real toys of joy and stood with awe and wonder at the sight of colosus at Bletchly park when they had it fired up. It lived, it breathed, it hummed, it clattered, it was warm, and it moved me. Would I want one at home to surf the net? not a chance.
I love steam engines, I love old cars. Do I want to rely on them for day to day life? No.
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You do and a considerable number on here do and its not based on fact or knowledge.
Perhaps you can remember an example rather than just making the assertion? I think not. You may remember me complaining about these triumphalist expressions of modernism that somehow suggest everything before was rubbish and those who understand the advantages of new technology are hipper than their forebears and (as it were) morally superior.
You've just done that again actually AE. But I won't bother to complain this time.
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You may remember me complaining about these triumphalist expressions of modernism that somehow suggest everything before was rubbish and those who understand the advantages of new technology are hipper than their forebears and (as it were) morally superior.
Ok not fundamentalist Luddite perhaps, more lud leaning tendencies. ;)
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