When I was in the mota game, I had customers who 'never' changed their oil, they'd get me in to change the plugs, points, air filter, and to fiddle about with the carb., but I can vouch for the fact that these engines went over the 100 thou!
I'm seriously thinking of keeping my 1.8 Almera to the end of time (or 2012) I know all about the ole timing chain so the oil *does* get changed regularly ... sure I fancy 'yet another' car but perhaps that's why I'm always skint whereas car dealers are rolling in it!
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>>I reckon with regular oil changes and sensible driving the actual engine will go for mega miles.
I think in most cases, that's perfectly true, and most of the oil choice and oil changing nonsense for modern cars is just hysteria.
There are a few engines where you have to be a bit careful.
I would imagine there's now a reasonable proportion of cars which get scrapped where the engines have never been opened up at all beyond servicing requirements, and are still running OK.
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Hi,
I have a feeling that engine longevity is not a new thing,many years ago when I was a teenager I remember a work mate that had a Corsair that was well into its third time round the clock on the original engine!
More up to date....I know a guy who has had a Jazz for 6years and never had it serviced!
He feels that servicing is a waste of money and says "when it stops working I will buy another".
Its interesting isnt it,most people I have known that drive cars hard and never lift the bonnet seem to have trouble free motoring
Phil.
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I know a guy who has had a Jazz for 6years and never had it serviced!
We have one that's 6 too and I've never known a car keep its oil so clean between services. I wouldn't dream of not getting it serviced every year, but it's hard to argue with the economics.
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>>>He feels that servicing is a waste of money and says "when it stops working I will buy another".<<<
I have personally known people, that have neglected their cambelts, and have been *hit* with a bill in excess of one thousand pounds ... all for the want of a rubber band!
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I have personally known people that have neglected their cambelts and have been *hit* with a bill in excess of one thousand pounds ... all for the want of a rubber band!
Depends what you mean by neglect. I have never had a cambelt change in twenty five years, except once when a water pump failed and it needed to come off anyway [approx 130,000 on a VW GL5[Audi engine]. I choose unstressed engines with a good reputation and once the recommended change mileage is passed I inspect it every 10,,000 and give it a squirt of belt dressing. My record is 242,000 in a Passat 2.0 GL Can anyone beat that?
I wonder if you have known just as many, if not more, people who have changed their cambelt - and then had v expensive problems? I certainly read about a lot of them in this forum.
If it works, don't mend it!
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>>>My record is 242,000 in a Passat 2.0 GL Can anyone beat that?<<<
What, the engine or the belt?
I'm going back a few years John, but I've been witness to cambelts snapping and costing over a grand in repairs (pain dearler!) mostly French stuff like BX 1.9GTI and Pug 206 GTI.
In many cases, the garage or pain dealer failed to notify the owner a belt change was due.
Obviously, with some cam belts, fitting is a tad more than just sticking the belt on & then checking the tension by twisting it 90 degrees, so yes - I have heard of cambelts going belly up shortly after being fitted.
I HATE CAMBELTS! I start to shake, sweat and turn pale whenever the word is mentioned.
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>>>My record is 242 000 in a Passat 2.0 GL Can anyone beat that?<<< What the engine or the belt?
Both, Perro. I did actually change the tension pulley as I heard it whining - it was quite stiff and threatening to seize - at 140,000ish if I remember rightly, but the belt was in perfect condition [I'd owned it since about 4,500m] so I left it well alone. Changing the pulley was easy - nothing needed to be disturbed. It was beyond my capability to get to the bottom of the engine to change the belt.
Current car A6 2.8 - barely run in at 102,000. The belt looks almost as sturdy as a BMW motorbike drive belt! Sorry to hear you hate them - they really should last the life of the engine.
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Sorry to hear you hate them - they really should last the life of the engine.
They often do......
Belt goes - goodbye engine...........
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>>>Both, Perro<<<
How amazing! obviously cambelts have improved by leaps & bounds these days & contain a fair bit of metal or kevlar.
My Almera has a chain, but they can stretch and throw the timing out, but I just feel more secure with a Duplex chain, born worrier - that's me!
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"when it stops working I will buy another".
I suppose this may reflect a younger generation which has come to regard cars in much the same way as washing machines, as another poster recently said. To us oldies this is almost sacrilege - cars are a complex mechanism which it is worth spending effort in maintaining in good order, and not simply for peace of mind. And of course it represented a serious financial investment which could be protected to some extent.
Throwing one away when it breaks down reminds me of the last days of BR steam engines - everyone knew they were on the way out, so thrash them to death and don't bother to wash off the grime.
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>> "when it stops working I will buy another". I suppose this may reflect a younger generation which has come to regard cars in much the same way as washing machines as another poster recently said.
I think the reason behind that, is because cars today are like washing machines - just designed and built to do a job, with no character.
Also they age so quickly, for instance anyone noticed just how dated Merc E Class W210, Mk3 Mondeos, and Mk1 Mazda 6's look now?
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I had a friend years ago who bought a new Civic Shuttle when they first came out - must have been about '84 - and wouldn't bother getting it serviced. Spent its life going up and down from the Westcountry to Scotland for fishing trips, etc. IIRC it went into six figures.
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anyone noticed just how dated ... Mk1 Mazda 6's look now?
Not to me. They look sleeker, sportier, nimbler and much more elegant than the Mk2. I want to love the Mk2, but I just can't.
Saw Herc leaping out of a late model/facelift Mk1 in an episode of The Wire last night. Made me feel strangely and unjustifiably proud at owning one myself. I am an evidently odd human being. I am leaning towards keeping it at the moment rather than doing as Mrs A says and swapping it for a smaller Mazda3.
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I don't blame you for wanting to keep your Mazda 6, A.
It's one of the few cars that looks good in Grey, IMHO, though in Blue it looks fabulous.
I may well have bought one last time, if the diesel had been available with an automatic gearbox. I did test drive the 2 litre with a manual gearbox to see ig I could live without an auto, but I couldn't bear it.
Loved the rest of the car, though!
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Mine's grey. Auto, 2.0 petrol (natch). Since having it I've gone right off the family Touran 2.0 diesel DSG for town driving. Wish we'd got a 2.0TSI as town is where we stay mostly these days. Don't think I'll ever buy another diesel, although the Touran is great fun on A-roads.
(edited to remove inadvertant blasphemy as I've been told off about that before.)
Edited by Alanovich on 15/09/2009 at 14:30
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Interesting comments about not servicing cars and them going on for years. Don't get me wrong I don't advocate this at all, I think engines do need regular oil, filter, plug, air cleaner changes etc..even more important is the willingness of the modern motorist to at least walk around the car once per week for 5 minutes, check tyres, lift bonnet, check levels, look for leaks, funny smells etc..
BUT....I also think there must still be a the problem of unintentional "mechanic" induced faults. When I was involved in the trade, it was common to see perfectly good cars have faults introduced to them by work done incorrectly. Much of this was the enthusiasm to fix things under warranty, often by what seemed to be trial and error! The perfectly good thing that was refitted often failed years later.
I have sometimes received cars back from servicing with the top hose loose, nuts missing, bolts sheared and other small problems that will cause a more expensive problem later. They didn't always use the right oil, bulk oil does that to people, ocassionally parts that should have been changed at a service are not changed.
I think that motorists with sufficient knowledge, ability, space and tools, should definitely try and do some of the simpler jobs themselves. Or at least mark up the components and inspect the car after a garage service. People are only human and stuff does get forgotten, I would never dream of simply driving a car after a service without checking it over.
As my Dad used to say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "leave well enough alone"
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Very good points made in the post above.
The business models applied in the Motor Trade do not allow for a well trained and highly motivated dealer workforce, so bodging, neglect and actual consequential damage are rife.
The best vehicles I have owned, irrespective of make, have been those I've owned from nearly new and maintained myself. If you can do this and also be aware of the specific weaknesses that all vehicles have (and of course address these), most vehicles will run to high mileages without undue cost or problems. Those which don't under these conditions are the "lemons" - which the Internet helps us to avoid.
659.
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When I was involved in the trade, it was common to see perfectly good cars have faults introduced to them by work done incorrectly.
Every secondhand Skoda Estelle I bought was out of tune. If the ignition timing itself was right, the dwell or contact breaker gap never was. And the carburettor screws - only two of them really - were never correct. One had a porous carburettor casting and would only idle properly with a whisker of choke, which some slut of a mechanic or owner had adjusted into the system before I got the car.
Cars in that sort of state seemed perfectly normal to most people. They ran OK, started and so on, but the performance was always a bit dull, or if not dull then unbalanced and peaky. In proper tune they were indefinably, subtly, but definitely somehow more bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
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>>>Every secondhand Skoda Estelle I bought was out of tune<<<
Almost every Skoda I Crypton tuned in days of olde had a worn or badly worn distributor baseplate, so even with the ole dwell meter, setting the points up would be a hit or miss affair ... the carbs wern't much better either, and while I've 'got the floor' if the tappets wern't adjusted regularly, they would end up with nil clearence - and burn out the valve seats (happy days!)
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Did you remember to give the grease cup on the water pump a turn?
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setting the points up would be a hit or miss affair ...
Indeed. But those components (contact breaker and carb) are compromise devices by definition. It's true that Skoda distributors would wear (although I only knew one to actually fail) and needed to be adjusted to compensate for that. The centrifugal bob weight springs could weaken causing advance to happen at lower speeds. The amount of centrifugal advance could be quite variable too, and the vacuum capsule could go.
However a bit of intelligence with strobe light and dwell meter (setting the contact gap with a feeler gauge was sure to get the dwell wrong so was only a start), and the all-important road testing, could make the difference between a boring Skoda and a sprauncy one. It helped to be the owner because you knew how the car ought to go. Some snooty Crypton man (no offence to you perro) driving a better car than the Skoda couldn't be expected to show much ultimate sensitivity. But every little helps when the car isn't all that muscular to start with.
Naturally the valve clearances had to be kept correct too. But don't tell NC because he thinks owners shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about difficult stuff and are sure to make a pig's ear of it.
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>>But don't tell NC because he thinks owners shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about difficult stuff and are sure to make a pig's ear of it.
He he!
Yes, in my experience, DIYers tend to set valve clearances way too tight in the misguided belief that quieter = better.
For many cars, you could, if your ears could stand it!, get improved engine performance by setting valve clearances rather wide - and, engine performance certainly dives off a cliff if you set them too tight.
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With most OHV engines, the valve clearences would increase over time/mileage - but not the Skoda's for some reason - they would decrease ... On OHC engines I found the clearences would decrease over time/mileage - many's the time I've gone to a car which was running like a swine, only to find the points closed up, a couple of tight tappets, no oil in the carb dashpot, the vacuum advance unit punctured or the centrifugal advance siezed but I would have them running like a new within 60 to 90 mins. (usually!)
All that's finished now, who has (or needs to) have their car tuned these days.
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I do things like oil filters and coolant changes myself I just don't do anything I have to get underneath the car to do as I have no off road parking. I actually love working on my car but then it is a form of relaxation for me.
I do worry about my engine more than anything else because if it goes I need a new car. I do not worry about my battery because if it goes I am £45 out of pocket.
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but not the Skoda's for some reason - they would decrease
They were pushrod engines. The gaps would widen in the usual way when there was leaded petrol. When it became hard to get a lot of people were sporadic with the lead substitute additive, which wasn't as good as leaded petrol anyway, and some of the 130 owners suffered recession of the exhaust (not inlet) valve seats causing the gap to close.
I did myself, with an iron-head 130 not the alloy-head 136 which had steel valve seats.
I regret leaded petrol for another reason: you could tell the state of tune by looking in the exhaust pipe after a spell on the road.
Edited by Lud on 15/09/2009 at 22:12
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>>>, and some of the 130 owners suffered recession of the exhaust (not inlet) valve seats causing the gap to close.<<<
A'ha! you obviously 'know your stuff' Senor ... it came to me last night whilst laying in bed - valve seat regression, which is why many older cars had to have new hardened valve seats fitted so as to run on lead free + the timing retarded to stop 'pinking'
I well remember back in the 70's 80's with the Rover 2000 TC's and Triumph 2000's etc., having to set the ign. timing to TDC to stop them 'pinking' with the demise of 5 star, but in doing so - the critters would then suffer from 'running on' (hehehe!) oh what fun!
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many older cars had to have new hardened valve seats fitted so as to run on lead free + the timing retarded to stop 'pinking'
I remember it well and I did have some cars that used to suffer with running on and pinking was commonplace.
I like the expression "new" when applied to hardened valve seats. In my opinion many manufacturer's simply didn't care and made the cars as cheaply as they could....especially some of the engines. On some the bores could wear terribly within 70K and piston slap was a word commonly used....you don't hear it much now.
As for that hardened stuff, they could put it on aircraft engine valves and seats during WWII, but not in most cars 30 or 40 years later....pah!
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>>> As for that hardened stuff, they could put it on aircraft engine valves and seats during WWII, but not in most cars 30 or 40 years later....pah! <<<
Plus, all the jap cars were running on 2star for donkeys years - double pah!
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Question: Is two star un-leaded? I thought the star rating related to octane?
Edited by dereckr on 16/09/2009 at 14:35
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Unleaded was the thing...5 star just made the right engines run so much smooooother and better.
Bring back tetra ethyl lead (apart from the two stroke boys where it whiskered up the plugs), then we can see the exam results begin to get back to their normal levels..
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>>> then we can see the exam results begin to get back to their normal levels..<<<
(hehehe!) Like my ole Brother, he's been smoking since he was 14, decides to give it up - hasn't been right (in the head) since!
Bring back 4star, smoking in pubs, £.S.P, Green Shield stamps & Black and White TV .. er - what's she done with me medication :-D
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Bring back 4star, smoking in pubs, £.S.P. ...
I take it you mean £.s.d ? Let's do the thing properly ...
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>>>I take it you mean £.s.d ? Let's do the thing properly<<<
Hahaha! Well I'll be damned - that's right my friend ... there you are then, brainwashed by the mass media + The Nanny (read Bully) State!
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Green Shield stamps
I digress, apologies:
Wow, blast from the past, I remember having to lick and stick hundreds of them in books. If you remember there were two sizes, little ones and big stamps worth 20 little ones or sommat. Woe betide any petrol pump jocky who forgot to give you the right amount of Green Shield Stamps.
It also amazed me how popular those Esso coins were and the 3D animal pictures (of which I have a full set in the presentation album :-)
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>>>I remember having to lick and stick hundreds of them in books<<<
Yeah. a good idea (at the time) I can remember having umpteen books of the things, there were pink ones as well, but I never bothered with those ~
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Shield_Stamps
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Re, the OP, one example that always sticks in my head was a K-plate mkIII Cavalier SRi 8v which was used as a pool car at a company I joined in 1997. Then five years old, it had been purchased by the company at the end of its three year lease, having covered just under 70,000 miles under a full maintenance contract where it was serviced to the book.
Once the company owned, it they simply stopped servicing it. It was given to me for a business trip, with 140,000 miles on the clock, and had literally done 70k on the same oil and filters. Not only was it still running, but it still sounded healthy and pulled like a train.
I have no idea how this was possible. The closest it got to an oil change was when someone who cared (i.e. me) had it for a while, and topped up the level. Things like brakes were replaced on an MOT advisory basis.
It was stolen and torched in the end, but I often wonder just how long it would have soldiered on before the big end bearings or something equally critical cried "enough".
My current S60 (considerably better maintained) has 150k on the clock now, and still doesn't use enough oil over a 12k service interval to need a top up. No funny noises, maybe just a *touch* more tappety than it used to be at idle, but it could be me being picky. Not lost any power according to my butt-dyno either. I reckon, barring a prang or something completely random and expensive, this is an easy 200,000 miler.
Edited by DP on 17/09/2009 at 15:14
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>>>. The closest it got to an oil change was when someone who cared (i.e. me) had it for a while, and topped up the level<<<
Two vehicles I remember for not ever having the oil changed were (1) Ford Transit with the V6 lump (2) Volvo 240 2.3 - both these vehicles were used for business, the tranny by a mobile saw blade chap who covered vast distances - I used to look after the tuning side but - they were fastidious about keeping the oil topped up!
>>>this is an easy 200,000 miler<<< *Only* 200k ?
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Oil was probably changed over time as successive top-ups mounted up. Good way to run an engine. My BMW Boxer enjoyed drinking its oil in the early miles, someone told me that this was a design feature to ensure ongoing on the road oil-changes and would stop after 3000 miles. Sure enough it did ! Uses very, very little now as the engine beds in 20000 miles now an only uses a dribble.
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>>>BMW Boxer? you had me going there for a minute - Motorbike!
I've mentioned this on a past thread ... engine oil holds particles like combustion by products, acids etc. in suspension, so it may APPEAR not to use any oil over a given time.
The test I use with my engine oil, is to keep it translucent (full synth.) obviously I am a 'petrol head'
I quite agree with what you say about successive top ups changing most of the oil over time - especially with the Ford 3ltr V6 and the old Volvo lumps.
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