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I find that minimalist cars disappoint you less, since you hold lower expectations for them. They give you a more "honest" motoring experience, IYSWIM. And they always seem cheaper to run than their up-specced counterparts. 80 quid/year to maintain a 1.1 Panda :-)
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The only car with problems with non minimalist parts - that I had problems with - was a Rover 800.. (Electric window switches - 6 times).
Oh and an A4: air conditioning condenser
BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Volvo , Ford and Toyota seem to be able to make reliable cars in the past 20 years
Yaris has electric front windows (nice, not essential), sunroof (ditto), aircon(ditto).. Would I drive a car without them? Yes
Would I buy a new car without them? No.
Would I buy a French car with them? I am not gaga yet so no chance. Our 1993 106 is still going - it has a sunroof- with touch wood no electrical issues.. If it had any of the above gadgets, I suspect some would have failed by now : and repair would be uneconomic...
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Even the Panda 1.1 Active, of which I'm a great fan, is not minimalist.
It has tinted windows, electric front windows, central locking and lately even the plastic bumpers have paint on them.
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I've recently bought a 1987 VW Polo because it's better than getting wet on my bicycle - excuse me while I rant about the weather for an hour or two....
I'm back. The Polo is below poverty spec by most people's standard today, however it's got enough things to keep you comfortable: heater; screen demister; heated rear window; it always starts; it weighs less than a Lotus Elise so does decent mpg; it's tiny so you can park it easily. I fitted a radio but I could have done without one.
That's plenty for driving most of the time but would it be enough to attract buyers today? Compared to our normal car, a Volvo S80 it's almost empty inside but I can still appreciate it for its own values especially compared to a bicycle, which is a step up from walking or taking the bus!
It's a bit noisier than a new car on the motorway, but not much. It just helps to keep cruising below 75 which isn't a bad thing.
It's not as safe in a crash as a modern car, but I've taken steps to avoid crashing. And it's still safer than 2 wheels.
The steering and brakes are heavier, but at least you can see out of it with slim pillars everywhere.
It's got no aircon, but the whole car only cost £200 so I'm not too upset.
Minimal motoring isn't for everyone, and if I was spending a long time in the car on hot days I'd choose something else. But for mostly short journeys, minimal motoring has its advantages. And compared to an Austin A30 it's positively luxurious. Compared to an Austin 7 it's got comfort that a contemporary Rolls Royce owner wouldn't mind!
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>>> heated rear window <<<
Yeah, Skoda's used to have these too - called a hand warmer I believe!
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I think there's a potential market for no-frills cars and light commercials designed only for urban or other short-range use. I'm thinking of battery electrics, like the G-Whiz, where the designers have recognised the concept's strengths and weakenesses and not attempted to target the car to customers where the weaknesses (low performance, short range) would be a problem. I know the G-Whiz gets some stick for its minimalness, and I haven't driven one, so I can't really say, but if it does 'what it says on the box' then it can't be all bad!
It will be interesting to see how the Tata Nano does worldwide and here as it looks like it could be a leap forward in minimalist conventional motor cars, but again, within its limitations. The MCC Smart has never really been minimalist except in its size, so it's a very different kettle of fish to the Nano.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 15/08/2009 at 15:34
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People,particularly in the UK,are not interested in basic cars-they'll say they are but going out to buy one-never.The JONES'S might think they're poor.
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People particularly in the UK are not interested in basic cars-they'll say they are but going out to buy one-never.The JONES'S might think they're poor.
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So why are our roads full of c1, 107 and Aygos? Base models of these are very basic, our Aygo is a mid range model but still doesn't get a rev counter. We only went mid range for the remote locking, but this means a few other "luxuries" like electric windows.
We opted for aircon, but this is available on any model. Doesn't affect consumption much either.
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Compare UK "base" models with the offerings in other countries-you'll see what I'm talking about.UK levels of trim/accessories are higher than any other country.Air-con,remote locking,electric windows!!-you won't see these in some countries-even in a so-called "mid" range.
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Compare UK "base" models with the offerings in other countries-you'll see what I'm talking about.UK
It has always been thus. I remember years ago you could buy a Renault 4 in France with basic, canvas seats - comfortable enough, I should add. The base model here at the time was top-of-the-range there.
Surely there would be a market now for that sort of trim?
No electric windows, mirrors, seats. No carpet, sound-proofing etc.
I bet they could knock a fair bit off the price.
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My wife's five year old Ka is fairly minimalist. I drive it quite often and it is perfect for short urban hops. It is also pretty good fun on twisty A roads too. It wouldn't be my car of choice for a long haul but it could easily cope with that if required.
It has manual windows, no central locking, a basic radio, no ABS or any other acronyms for that matter and steel wheels but it does have power steering. Too hot ? .....open the window. Too cold ?...... turn the heater up.
Jones ? Who are they ? I like it. My wife likes it. Not sure I, or she for that matter, cares much if anyone else does ! Is there some reason why we should ?
Our other car has loads of toys on it and most of them get used at some time or another but only a few of them would be missed in reality.
So, in response to the OP. I absolutely concur that there is still a valid market slot for a minimalist car. Surely lots of people just need and want a reliable fuss free budget set of wheels so to speak ?
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Yes but then FIAT or who ever will just reduce the price of a Panda Eco with its rev counter, central locking, electric windows etc to match that.
My last car was porverty spec I hated it, the windows just kept misting up and it would take ages to wind them down in if you needed to see out. No central locking so had to lock each door, no power steering so getting out of tight dead end streets was a nightmare it was just too basic.
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The fundamental problem with persuading someone to buy new minimalist cars is that you can always buy a nearly new better specced car for the same price. Whatever people say they would buy in practice they nearly always opt for a little more comfort
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Exactly. My mate had a choice between a Kia Picanto and a Panda. The panda was about £400 more expensive but for that you get better build quality, an engine that has been around for ever, electric windows, colour coded bumpers, power steering, central locking, rev counter, follow home head lights etc, more space inside etc. Ok the Kia had a silly long warranty but he only wants to keep it for three years so that isn't an issue.
The mentality I have is why spend £6k on a car if its basic? I would rather get something that is 6 months old with much better spec.
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Exactly. My mate had a choice between a Kia Picanto and a Panda. The panda was about £400 more expensive but for that you get better build quality an engine that has been around for ever electric windows colour coded bumpers power steering central locking rev counter follow home head lights etc more space inside etc. Ok the Kia had a silly long warranty but he only wants to keep it for three years so that isn't an issue.
The Picanto has the same warranty as the Panda, as for the rest of the guff do some research....
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Why. My car has a lot of toys for its age and they all work perfectly. My next car will also have toys I can't do without them. Eelectric windows are very handy. Power steering is essential as is central locking.
I really cannot see a basic car selling well in this country now, we are too used to gadgets. You could by cars like the Nippa but they didn't sell for a good reason.
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Eelectric windows are very handy.
Hi Rattle. I have heard of an Electric Eel, but not Eelectric windows. I wonder how they would go with Mash and Liquor?
Ta ta for now............MD
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I'd have though that minimalist must also extend to the price... which is why I don't regard such cars as the GWhiz as minimalist...
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Minimalist spec is totally fine if the car has other redeeming features such as excellent practicality ( 2CV for eg ). Comfort of things like seats and ride need not be lost in the persuit of low price, so you can have a basic but comfortable car.
My car is pretty basic - it has electric windows and mirrors but I would be as happy to wind my own windows and mirrors tend not to be moved once they are set up so the loss of electric assistance wouldnt bother me. On a small car like my Charade, PAS isnt really needed as the tyres arent wide enough to make it unduly heavy.
None of this detracts from the cars useable nature.
I think you should have the option to have a stripped out model and add individual features, like you used to on Merc or BMW, so you paid for exactly what bits of kit you wanted.
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Power steering is essential as is central locking.
Hmmm, I think you need to have a quick look at the definition of "essential"
Of all the cars I've owned without power steering over the years, and there must have been about 20, only 2 would have been usefully easier with PAS. And believe me, I'm hardly the local arm-wrestling champion, why even pressing these keys is making me glow a little ;-)
Fair enough if you're older or you need to get around poor steering geometry, too much weight, massive sticky tyres etc, but I didn't have Rattle down as an arthritic chap of advancing years?
Edited by Garethj on 15/08/2009 at 20:27
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>> Power steering is essential as is central locking.
Rattle,
How ever did people manage to drive for the first 80 years or so before these aids were common or affordable? I am sure a youngster like you could manage to move a door lock button up and down, lazy or what! :-) And yes my current car has the toys but many didnt. A recent visit to the National Motor Museum brought me memories, and would enlighten you, I reccomend it. Beaulieu is about 480 miles from where I live, so must be quite close to you! In fact only 240 or so, just down the road!
Edited by Old Navy on 15/08/2009 at 20:47
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There was no need for power steering when the steering wheel was the size of that on a Routemaster and tyres were as skinny as Posh Spice.
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There was no need for power.......>>
True, they have a Routemaster and an Anglia 105e at the NMM. I passed my UK car test in a 105e, no power anything!
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>>> am sure a youngster like you could manage to move a door lock button up and down, lazy or what! <<<
He doesn't mean essential like the wheels or gearbox O/N he means essential for creature comforts, and why shouldn't one, after all - it is 40 years since we landed on the Moon!
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Whats essential about comfort? Stiff upper lip, flies in your teeth! :-) Sooooo glad my car has the toys!
On a serious note the National Motor Museum is well worth a visit.
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>>>n a serious note the National Motor Museum is well worth a visit.<<<
This Museum is worth a butchers as well, I've been to the one at Syon Park, but not the Warwickshire one -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Motor_Centre
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Oh don't get me wrong. I like toys too. In fact my car has a comprehensive bell and whistle count. I enjoy many of their benefits but my excuse is that I spent an awful lot of time in the car and I want to be as pampered as possible.
If I only used it to drive 10 miles to work and back every day or something I suspect it would be less important to me to have quite so many switches to play with.
My wife, who is an excellent, highly skilled and enthusiastic driver as an aside, simply doesn't care about these things but does enjoy a car which gives good driver feedback. She, if faced with such a choice would sooner have a car which is dynamically pleasing over one which was less so but more conveniently equipped.
Of course in the perfect world one would always have both bases covered I suppose.
I do admit to a soft spot for highly focussed cars. As an ex-owner of a Land Rover 90 and a Westfield, both of which were excellent at their intended purposes and fairly rubbish at anything else I can also relate to the mindset of a prospective purchaser of a utilarian car if that is what their lifestyle and wallet requires.
Give me a well sorted basic car over a badly thought out but luxurious one every time. Others will naturally have their own thoughts.
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Surely there would be a market now for that sort of trim? No electric windows mirrors seats. No carpet sound-proofing etc. I bet they could knock a fair bit off the price.
It was tried back in the late 70's; Ford with the Escort "Popular" and Vauxhall with the Viva "E" IIRC. It came to light that the cars were no cheaper to produce since what the manufacturers saved on the cost of parts was offset by the extra hassle on the asembly lines.
The Japanese manufacturers regarded it as manna from heaven; they simply left all the stuff in and cut the retail price; this was the era when radios and HRW's were extras.
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Lower spec in other countries is often down to tax on vehicles, whether this be based on list price or emissions. More goodies, higher cost or weight = more tax.
Audi had to strip quite a bit from the current A3 when launched to ensure it didn't get penalised by Irish taxation classes.
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A car I still miss for its simplicity but sheer driving pleasure was my 1987 BMW 320 two door which I had from new. No power steering, no power mirrors, cloth seats, steel wheels, wind up windows, flat navy paint etc. It did have a manual sunroof though which I liked. Just a great car of its time, unsullied by needless extras. Loved it.
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S'funny - I had a flat navy blue 320 85 model about 6 or 7 years ago ... 1 owner, low milage but boy was it rusty!
It really did drive well & I enjoyed driving it - probably more than any car since!
Praps I need a BMW mucho pronto!!
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Romania-made Logan
was minimalist
then it got bloated
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HJ,
I am suprised that neither you nor anyone else has made the point that in the UK at least two out of every three NEW cars/vans sold are sold to businesses/companies and they do not buy basic cars.No other country in the world has such a "skewed" marketplace for vehicles.
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Sadly I have not had chance to drive my mates 1.1 Active yet so cannot comment. My impressions are that the build quality is top notch but they have introduced a lot of features we have not seen in recent years such as hollow head rests and a none locking fuel cap.
It must be one of the most simple engines on the market today too.
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