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This is my first post and unfortunately under bad circumstances. My girlfriend had a service carried out (50k) two weeks ago from a Mazda dealer on her 55 reg Mazda 3. Whilst driving the car last week the oil light came on and within 1 min of the light coming on, the car virtually siezed - she managed to pull over on the A34 stopping one lane of traffic at rush hour! Anyway it was towed to Mazda who have stated that the car will need a new engine!! Unfortunately the car is out of warranty but given that they replaced the Oil filter and sump plug washer on the car during the service 2 weeks ago, surely this could have caused the problem? So far the dealer has stated that the Oil pump had come away from the engine causing all the Oil to gush out and thus seizing the engine!. What do you think the next course of action should be? I feel that either the service should have spotted any potential problems with the Oil Pump or that someone carrying out the work may not have done the job correctly and has caused the issue. Thoughts welcome as we're now going to be facing a major bill.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 04/08/2009 at 01:27
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This is obviously very bad news, sorry to read what has happened. However, if the dealer has carried out the service according to the schedule and the car has run for 2 weeks it is hard to see how they can be at fault. The oil pump is not usually an item that features in the servicing and what aspect of the servicing, if not carried out properly, could cause the oil pump to "Come away from the engine casing"? I do not think you can prove a connection between a service, carried out to the laid down schdule, and the subsequent failure of a part not included in that schedule.
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It seems strange to me the oil pump should come adrift after 50K miles.
Coincidental isn't it that it should happen so soon after a service?
Is it the same garage?
It's a pity you didn't get an independent assessment of what caused the lack of oil pressure.
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Whilst driving the car last week the oil light came on and within 1 min of the light coming on the car virtually siezed
Not being funny but why wasn't the engine turned off straight away when the light was noticed rather than continuing to drive it until it seized?
So far the dealer has stated that the Oil pump had come away from the engine causing all the Oil to gush out and thus seizing the engine!.
No, the engine seized because the car was driven for a minute (or more) with no oil pressure.
What do you think the next course of action should be?
Garage wise, no come back on them.
Girlfriend wise, if she doesn't already know, advise her the light is NOT a low oil level warning light - it's a "turn the engine off straight away" light.
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Dynamic Dave - She wasn't able to turn the engine off whilst doing 60mph along a busy duel carriageway. She literally tried to get in to the inside lane and tried to pull over in the inside lane. I?m just glad she wasn?t hurt to be honest.
Armitage ? you say how could they be at fault about the Oil pump coming away from the engine casing? ? well how bad is a Mazda 3 if that can actually happen on a car built in 06. I don?t think that is the real reason and given that they changed the Oil filter then they would have been able to spot any potential issue with the Oil pump.
Bathtub Tom ? I like you think it?s a bit coincidental that this has happened so soon after the service. I wish ? as you say ? that I had got someone independent to asses what caused the damage. I think the garage (the same one that carried out the service) are telling me the cause of the problem as being an issue with the oil pump. I think the truth is more than likely to be the sump plug coming away and losing all the oil. This is the same sump plug that they replaced the washer for.
I won?t be letting this go without truly understanding how this can happen on a car that has been serviced by a Mazda dealer from new. I?m still waiting to hear from the dealer on what they are going to do.
What I don?t understand is how is the oil pump fixed to the engine? Are they screwed in and if so surely there would be more than one screw so how could they all come away?
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Dynamic Dave - She wasn't able to turn the engine off whilst doing 60mph along a busy duel carriageway.
Dip clutch or knock into neutral, turn engine off - literally seconds to do. There was no need to leave the engine running for a minute or more at 60 mph with no oil pressure.
The car will still have enough momentum to enable you to get to the inside lane, unless you are going up a steep hill. You will still have sufficient brakes for 2 to 3 pedal presses before the vacuum in the brake servo is all used up. And with most modern cars the brake lights still work with the ignition off to warn people behind you are slowing down.
She literally tried to get in to the inside lane and tried to pull over in the inside lane. I?m just glad she wasn?t hurt to be honest.
Granted yes, at the end of the day it's a tin box and life is more precious than a lump of metal.
If there is a flaw with the oil pump, then good luck in chasing Mazda for recompense.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 04/08/2009 at 13:54
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Absolutely take your point - as soon as the light came on then if those steps were taken - it wouldn't be such a headache. Unfortunately we learn from our mistakes (well I hope we do) and in the heat of the moment panic kicks in and she did what she thought was best.
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the Oil pump had come away from the engine causing all the Oil to gush out and thus seizing the engine!.
I'm not familiar with this engine. Is the oil pump external, thus allowing all the Oil to gush out? Did it leave a pool of oil? Was it leaking after the service?
DD. I think you may as well be bashing your head against a brick wall as try to teach people about warning lights. SWMBO once saved an engine by stopping it immediately an oil light came on, but I'm afraid the next generation don't and won't listen.
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I don't know if the Oil pump is external - trying to find out about that. There were no visible signs of an oil leak on the driveway after the service but most cars now have the plastic cover under the car so not sure if it would have been visible had there been a small leak.
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If the oil left the car at 60MPH, I'd expect to see signs of it spread over the rear bodywork by the slipstream. Was there any?
If the pump is internal and just came loose, then the engine would lose pressure.
If the pump is internal, I can't imagine there's any way of telling if it's secure at an oil and filter change.
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yes the oil was all over the back of the car and on the rear windscreen
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Mr O - SFAIK removal of the oil filter does not provide any access to, or capabilty for inspecting, the oil pump, in any car. It is just a canister on the outside of the crankcase which is removed and exchanged with a new one when the oil is changed. There is clearly something expenive and badly wrong with the car but I don't think you will be able to make a connection of any sort with a service that was done 2 weeks ago. The oil pump does not even feature in the service schedule, I think you will find.
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Does anyone know where the oil pump is this engine?
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A Google For Mazda 3 + oil pump produced this:
72.99 oil pump driveshaft many an engine has been destroyed as a ... result of oil pump .... FEATURES MAZDA3 i 4-Door Touring Includes the following . ...
Might indicate a known fault or trend?
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It does sound like it lost the sump plug. This would have been easy to prove at the scene, but very difficult now. Your only option would be to get an engineer to argue that their diagnosis is wrong, and if this fails you could end up with some very large bills.
How quickly do you need to have this car (or replacement) back on the road ?
Have you looked at the cost of a replacement engine from a breaker ?
personally, I would probably be looking at doing this at a backstreet garage.
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I think you're right I wish I'd have had someone look at the car immediately. Once I've had the detailed diagnoses back from Mazda I'm going to ask an independant engineer to make an assesment. I've hired a car for her now as she needs a car but that's at a cost of course. I will look into options about using an alternative garage to do the repair work if I get no where with Mazda. It doesn't help that we're moving house and could ill afford all this expense now - what's the saying 'it never rains but it pours!'
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Hard to prove at this stage but, if it is/was missing, that is a very clear connection to the servicing. I can't honestly see that, if it has gone the garage that did the service, for diagnosis, they won't have spotted a missing plug and replaced it. I am not saying they have but it would be tempting wouldn't it?
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yep very tempting given the costs. It's going to be one of those long drawn out things that will either work in my favour or end up costing more - oh well these things only make you stronger ;-)
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If the sump plug was not replaced at the service i doubt very much the car would have run for two weeks. ie. with no oil.
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Is it possible the sump plug wasn't tight enough and was leaking for the entire two weeks? I would say that it's quite possible that a) the gradual drips of oil streaming back might not have been noticed and b) the oil pressure light might have been on a lot longer than 1 minute without having been seen.
That's not to lay the fault at the door of the girlfriend driving, slowish oil leaks are easy to miss and small red lights have a lot to fight with to get our attention with all the other stuff going on around us!
Although Mrs Oilburner once did continue to drive down the motorway with a piece of long metal lodged in the tyre, whipping around the bodywork (making an awful racket) until I implored her (over the phone, I could barely hear her over the noise...) to pull over and see what was wrong... :)
It's all to easy to criticise when you're not there I guess...
Back to the original point, if it is the oil pump (or its gasket), then I would expect that it is unlikely that it would fail so dramatically without any hints of leakage at the last service. But not impossible, so getting some kind of qualified report on the condition of the oil pump is essential.
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As you say I wasn't there and had the oil light been on for a while then I can see that causing the damage. Has a woman ever to lied to me before - off course :) I hope she isn't though! Or maybe she did miss it and then suddenly noticed it - she did seem very convinced that she saw the light actually come on and stay on.
I'll take your advise and make sure that an report on the condition of the pump (and anything else they suspect as the cause) is inspected.
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They could have left the sump plug loose and it eventually worked it's way out.
They could also have failed to tighten the oil filter, assuming that it's a screw-on filter on this engine.
I really don't know, I'm very sorry to say, how you will manage to prove anything now one way or the other. It would appear, though, that a failed oil pump isn't an unknown problem on this engine, given a previous post.
If you say there was oil all over the back of the car and on the screen then it would seem that a large amount of oil has come from the engine. This could have been from the sump plug hole, from the oil filter, from an external oil pipe (if there is one) or from a crack in the sump or block. The last two could be seen even now.
It's very unfortunate that this should have happened at this time, particulary at the same time as you are moving house, but I think you'll have your work cut out now trying to prove anything against the garage. An initial inspection would have revealed whether the sump plug had come out or the oil filter had unscrewed itself, but it's too late for that now, I'm afraid.
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Galaxy think you're right it might all be too late. All I can do now is hope for Mazda to assist in resolving this and showing some form of goodwill and take it from there. It's just annoying to know that with hindsight a lot of things could have been done and I didnt'.
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It`s not unknown for a sump plug to be left finger tight following a service, it the Mech was distracted. Sometimes the filter is not done up tight - or the O ring to be incorrectly positioned in the naked element type filter. Sometimes the ring can be displaced due to a lazy apprentice not bothering to lube the O ring. (If it is that type)
Have you examined places it used to park for signs of a leak?
Also in my opinion it`s not reasonable to expect a non tech minded driver to kill the ignition and push the clutch pedal down at speed in traffic - while attempting what can be an accident threatening emergency in getting the vehicle to a safe stop in traffic.
(In particular given the `christmas tree` 0f flashing dash lights in a modern car)
What happens if an owner panics while attempting that and withdraws the key? More than a remote possibility due to the `automatic` reaction - with key withdrawal as almost second nature.
OP , you girlfriend did well to get it and herself safe to the roadside - that`s all that matters really - I would disregard any criticism of her good self (about the light and so on) and focus on that.
All the best
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"It's all to easy to criticise when you're not there I guess..."
Don`t you think this forum is getting way too good at just that - whatever the topic?
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Very true. I'm sure we all do daft stuff from time to time under pressure or in difficult situations, all too easy to pinpoint with the benefit of hindsight and a comfy chair!
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Thanks EM.
I have examined the driveway at the house and can't see any signs of oil but the day she was travelling back she'd been at work in Reading and parked up at 06:00 and was heading back to Birmingham at 4pm - it was about 1/2 hr in the journey along the A34 when the problem happened.
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I`ve known a Montego lose all it`s oil on the M1 - that was two weeks after a service and it had no sump plug when recovered.
I agree with `Galaxy` it`s too late now to be sure.
Generally speaking now - some elements of the trade are capable of almost anything...
For example - many years ago an employee of a major UK main dealer was `racing` another car and the other car got `cannoned off` the side of his car and ended up in a field in the middle of nowhere.
Now this was late evening - but phone calls brought the body shop lads in and they worked all night on his car. (this was in the days of skilled panel beating and quick drying cellulose paint)
After a team of people had worked all night the car was left in the car park as usual and of course it looks unmarked when the police visited. All allegedly of course... and the marque was one of the biggest in the UK - full parts dept and bodyshop worked all night..
Of course paranoia can set in when you have seen as much as I have, but I don`t like the "two weeks since service" That can a sump plug and filter well in the frame, for loosening off - more likely the plug.
I`m not saying, in these situations they get it in and someone tips off the servicing Mech - who then dirties up a new plug and put it in - it might be the pump after all.
Speak face to face with the Tech who serviced it - without accusing him of course - just to watch his body language...
Beyond this possible entertaining diversion - regrettably is it`s too late to prove anything.
Hope things improve for you soon.
Edited by Enteratu Moteurs on 04/08/2009 at 16:28
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UPDATE FROM MAZDA - The franchise manager rang my gf after she asked to speak to someone more senior. The franchise manager said:
' we are as concerned as you that we may have caused this problem. We are dealing with Mazda UK and the best outcome all round will be that Mazda offer goodwill and cover all the costs. Although we may have suggested that the fault was due to the Oil pump coming away - this is not confirmed as the cause. It's still a grey area and I've been getting conflicting information. We will get back to you as soon as possible with the response from Mazda. If Mazda don't cover the costs then we will need to strip the engine to try and identify the actual problem, the problem was due to low oil pressure is the only thing we're certain of'
So the plot thickens but I'm now seriously thinking that this was indeed caused by shoddy workmanship. This has all come about after we asked for written confirmation of what the exact root cause of the problem was and how it could have happened.
I have to say it will be refreshing if the franchise does accept responsibility.
For all those who said that the service couldn't have had anything to do with it - well the Mazda dealer haven't ruled that out.
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Well I certainly said that I didn't see a connection between a service and an oil pump failure; however I clearly see connection between a service and and loose and then fell out(?) sump plug. I hope the situation continues to move in your favour
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Thanks, me too - fingers crossed!
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The sump washer should be replaced on every service to reseal the pulg (normal on most cars) the oil filter is a canister type so just the inside is replaced the oil pump is internal to the engine (sounds to me that the oil filter seal has been nipped causing a small/ medium leak causing oil to leak away and engine sized) (the only other option is the turbo seal gone but this is not that likely)
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FINAL POST!
So this is the last update I hope ;-)
My GF picked up the car today with a brand new engine for the total cost of £0! Mazda accepted that after investigation the only cause of the engine blow out was potentially caused by the oil flooding out via the sump plug. As their investigation hadn't highlighted any other possibility they accepted their responsibility.
I have to say that Mazda have not tried to make this unfortunate situation difficult and have been very courteous and professional. I guess it goes to show that it shouldn?t always be assumed that there is nothing you can do until you?ve at least tried!
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Congratulations.
I'm glad to see you've had a satisfactory outcome.
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Thanks bathtub tom - it's such a relief
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Please stay around.
PS. bt will do
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Excellent news, I'm chuffed to hear it! :)
I assume it was the Mazda dealer and not Mazda the manufacturer who picked up the bill?
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Someone was being economical with the truth at some point.
Unless the oil pump is bolted on outside the engine, i fail to see how they could diagnose a loose/faulty oil pump when they diagnosed a ruined engine, but manged to overlook a missing sump plug with empty sump whilst doing so...or have i misunderstood?
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