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Nissan to invest in UK factory - Danny82
Hi there, the name is Danny or Dan and I'm new to this site. I am a huge car fan and love old cars especially. Anyway, I read today that Nissan will be making an investment in the Nissan Sunderland factory. They will be making Lithium-ion batteries for future electric cars. I'm sure this will improve the UK's automotive industry. Looking forward to more news on this...
Cheers
Dan

Edited by rtj70 on 20/07/2009 at 17:47

Nissan to invest in UK factory - rtj70
Hi Danny

Welcome to the forum. I've changed the thread subject title slightly to remove the first reference to Nissan. As this (as you figured out) can be classified as a Green Motoring subject, there is no need to include the make of a car. And you include Nissan in the thread title itself.

This is good news for Sunderland and the UK. Cars requiring this type of battery technology can only grow and therefore demand too.

Rob (one of the moderators)
Nissan to invest in UK factory - loonykev
Hi Danny, I hope this factory becomes a success, but I don't think people realise just how far away an electric car actually is. Here is an interesting article I read a few months ago. The cost of car batteries alone is prohibitive - in the US $10,000-$30,000 - what they will cost in this country we will have to wait and see. On top of this is where and how will the electricity to power 25m cars and several million heavy vehicles, be generated?

money.cnn.com/2009/04/14/technology/keegan_battery...m

Nissan to invest in UK factory - retgwte
production of batteries for hybrid or electric cars is a very dirty process, it pollutes the environment big time

one of the biggest issues with the toyota prius is the massive amount of pollution put into the water and air in the location where the batteries are made

and the pollutants are nasty stuff, heavy metals and the like

such issues are the reality of such so called green technology

in practise a diesel engine is likely to be much more green when taking into account pollution at the electricity power stations and battery production factories for electric and hybrid cars

shame sunderland is almost certainly going to suffer massive pollution as a result of this

shame the journalists didnt give brown and mandy a harder time in the circumstances

Nissan to invest in UK factory - Mr X
Dead right reg and the disposal of these batteries is going to be a complete nightmare at the end of their life. Luckily I will have left this festering hovel by then and gone to the big car auction in the sky.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - 1066
i have to agree.
bad long term move for sunderland but we need to keep them in employment but maybe the money would be better spent making a car that people want.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - ukbeefy
isn't it more that the pollution arises where the various heavy metals are mined and refined...not where they are bolted together in the factory....

And yes I have been to Sudbury in Canada and seen what I think was a nickel smelter turning the landscape into the moon....not many trees near there.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
isn't it more that the pollution arises where the various heavy metals are mined


Erm, what, like lithium?

And yes I have been to Sudbury in Canada and seen what I think was
a nickel smelter turning the landscape into the moon....not many trees near there.


Oooh! Sudbury Nickel! Fantastic! Apparently the deposits may have resulted from the physical effects of a large meteor hitting the earth way back in geological time! The area was used for testing of (airborne) instrumentation before the extent of the deposits became known; it was regarded simply as an anomalous area. Anyway, large parts of South Wales and Cornwall were turned into wastelands during the 1800s, due to the production and smelting of metals.

However, I digress. We're not going to be using NiFe batteries in electric cars.

Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 21/07/2009 at 00:40

Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
disposal of these batteries is going to be a complete
nightmare at the end of their life


What, like lead acid ones?

Shh! *Perhaps they'll be recycled!* Maybe no-one's thought of that yet!!
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
production of batteries for hybrid or electric cars is a very dirty process it pollutes
the environment big time


How so?

The whole idea is to stop polluting the environment with "greenhouse gasses" - whether you personally believe they're a problem is neither here nor there - it's what's been decided upon.

one of the biggest issues with the toyota prius is the massive amount of pollution
put into the water and air in the location where the batteries are made


Where are these made? Is this putative pollution uncontrolled, or uncontrollable?

and the pollutants are nasty stuff heavy metals and the like


What, like lithium?

in practise a diesel engine is likely to be much more green when taking into
account pollution at the electricity power stations and battery production
factories for electric and hybrid cars


No it isn't. The whole idea is to reduce "greenhouse gas" emissions. Burning fossil fuel is what Governments are actively trying to avoid. That's why there's the drive toward renewables and low emission generation.

shame sunderland is almost certainly going to suffer massive pollution


No, it isn't.

brown and mandy


Ach, ptui! Don't even *mention* these accursed names. Pah!
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
Hi Danny I hope this factory becomes a success but I don't think people realise
just how far away an electric car actually is.


Not too far away, I hope. There is growing pressure to develop acceptable electric cars. The pace of development will increase dramatically over the next few years.

The cost of car batteries alone is prohibitive


This is a major factor. The capability for decent performance is there, the cars can be made in quantity in short order, but the *cost* (wipes eyes with hanky).

On top of this is where and how will the electricity to power 25m cars and several
million heavy vehicles be generated?


It won't be, in the very short term - but the potential (ha! ha!) is there - we've already got spare "overnight" capacity. Just the job!

It's not going to be a sudden switch - out with the old, in with the new - it will be gradual. It's already starting.

Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 21/07/2009 at 00:24

Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
This is a Good Thing. Hopefully these batteries will be fitted, in due course, to UK cars.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
i must have dreamt it was european money being spent then rather than nissan s
pray tell someone i is wrong
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
What? Who are you replying to?
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Brentus
Hi Danny
Welcome to the forum. It is a good thing for the people working at the Sunderland factory. Credit must also go to the government for putting this initiative forward. I am not too concerned about producing the electric to re charge the batteries. The government has put in place strategy's for re newable energy and nuclear energy. I think the problem will be the network needed to plug in, but that will come in time im sure. Would i be correct in saying that the Toyota plant has made some announcement as well regarding electric cars.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
Brentus we need power stations run by splitting atoms so we can run electric cars
we are 40 years behind now due to differing governments
car batteries run by puffs in the sea and coal powered is just a joke perpetuated by smoke eating donkeys
we need Nuclear power stations and we need them now
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Kevin
Why would Nissan want to build a factory in the UK to produce Lithium batteries?

Why not build the factory in Chile, Argentina or China which have the largest currently known reserves of Lithium? Or maybe even Bolivia where estimated reserves of over 5 million tons have recently been discovered.

Why ship raw materials 5000 miles to a factory in a high tax, high rent, high labour-cost, red-tape ridden, politically correct and Health and Safety hell hole?

We give away hundreds of millions each year in "International Development Aid" and then spend hundreds of millions more grabbing back any chances they have of developing an industrial economy.

Could it possibly be that Nissan has nothing to lose and the UK taxpayer is picking up the tab?

All for half a dozen shiny Labour seats. Bunch of hypocrites.

Kevin...

Edited by Webmaster on 25/07/2009 at 12:42

Nissan to invest in UK factory - Mr X
Nicely put, Kevin
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
Why ship raw materials 5000 miles to a factory in a high tax high rent
high labour-cost red-tape ridden politically correct and Health and Safety hell hole?


Partly because of political concerns, I suspect - but largely due to transport costs and manufacturing infrastructure. Transporting relatively small amounts of stuff to be made into something makes far more sense than making the somethings where the stuff is mined, then transporting hugely multiplied tonnages/volumes to the consumer.

Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 21/07/2009 at 00:47

Nissan to invest in UK factory - Blue {P}
Well said FT.

I'm really pleased with the news, whatever's good for the factory is good for this whole region, and I think people may be forgetting that it's still business as usual with their other manufacturing operations such as Qashqai and Micra, this is extra work AFAIK, not replacement work.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
what did he say blue?
in laymans terms
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
Well said FT.
I'm really pleased with the news whatever's good for the factory is good for this
whole region


Thank you, Sah. I want one of they there Lightning cars, I do, but even if the cost of the batteries drops to 0 I *still* won't be able to afford one, bother it.

Hello clouds, hello sky, hello Lightning car - SCREEEEE!!!! Hello new tyres, hello plug & socket.

Actually, I'd say it would be best to retain garages, but as "power suppliers" (which they are at the moment). Just drive in, and swap your part-used battery for a fully-charged one (or two or three or four standard batteries for more powerful cars).
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
back in the real world
its a political joke
and im not laughing
2000 workers going at the steel plant next door and nissan are going to be making batteries
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
2000 workers going at the steel plant next door and nissan are going to be
making batteries


It's a good thing about the batteries - it's a shame about the steel works. They aren't the same thing, though. The price of steel has dropped hugely - this is even reflected in scrap values (I mentioned getting £100 for a scrapped Cavalier over a year ago - the last price quoted to me was £20 for a car, and it may not even be that much now. The steelworks in question has lost major contract sales, too.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Blue {P}
BB - He pointed out the reason why it makes sense to make the batteries here, regardless of the fact that one of the components is sourced in China.

There may be 2000 jobs going at the steel works, but it's better this way than lose the jobs at the steelworks AND at Nissan surely?
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Mr X
.. and when our roads are full of clean, electric cars is that the end of VED over the £35 rate. ?
If so, how do the government intend to make up the shortfall in tax revenue. I'll bet it's a case of four batteries are clean and green but 8 batteries are dirty planet killers so must be punished by a higher VED rate.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
and an extra charge to dispose of the old batteries so we will see them dumped everywhere MR X

As for the price of scrap its tumbled as a direct result of the scrappage scheme pushing lots of cars to the end of life centres and so obviously the price will drop, its simple economics ,oh and it was £80 a tonne 4 weeks ago before the scheme got fully into gear
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
and an extra charge to dispose of the old batteries so we will see them
dumped everywhere MR X


They're recyclable, just like lead acid car batteries. They are worth money, so won't be dumped.

As for the price of scrap its tumbled as a direct result of the scrappage
scheme pushing lots of cars to the end of life centres and so obviously the
price will drop its simple economics oh and it was £80 a tonne 4 weeks
ago before the scheme got fully into gear


It's not a result of the car scrappage scheme, which in total will provides a fraction of one monhs production. Global steel production is massively down:

www.steelonthenet.com/production.html


The price for scrap cars is quite interesting (I mean real scrap, not recycling components). I scrapped a car just over a year ago, and got £100. Some months (4?) after this, the price was £20. I called a scrap metal merchant just now, who quoted £60, saying "a couple of months ago it was £40". There will be variations caused by the price of copper, aluminium, waste disposal, but most is steel.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
FT
from your link last paragrapgh
quote--------Chinese steel imports in May reached their highest monthly level since September 2005 at 2.36 million tonnes. 55% of the total May imports were semis (mostly slabs) and hot rolled wide coil. Chinese exports in May dropped to 1.29 million tonnes, the lowest monthly level since April 2004. May was the third month in a row where the balance of trade was negative, exceeding one million tonnes for the first time since June 2004.----------------end quote

have you read that?
do you understand what it means?
:-)
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
FT
from your link last paragrapgh
quote--------Chinese steel imports in May reached their highest monthly level since ...
do you understand what it means?


Yes. Imports/exports are not production. Actual global steel production is down nearly 1/4 year on year in Q1 2009.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - bell boy
They havent lost contracts FT the contracts have been withdrawn
a contract is a contract you cant just pull out and say we arent interested ,one of the main players that pulled out was an italian company
look at the price of the pound to the euro ,its now up to £1.14, that tells me we are riding the storm and europe has to have a big fall,its been coming for 16 months but i really dont think the media like the bbc is reprting it enough
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Danny82
Thanks everyone for your warm welcome?s. You?ve given me a lot to think about. There I was just happy that some of our car manufacturers could keep their jobs but at a cost of even more pollution is sad actually. The whole low-carbon thing is suppose to create jobs in the process. I saw another article today about the low-carbon busses in Surrey that have been launched last week and will be effective in Surrey starting begin of next year. Could electric cars be that far off then?
Anyways I love all your insights and think you?ll be seeing a lot of me on this forum.
Cheers
Danny
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
There I was just happy that some of our car manufacturers could keep their jobs
but at a cost of even more pollution is sad actually.


What's this pollution, then?
Nissan to invest in UK factory - brum
Battery cars will never be more than fringe product. Not even considering the cost/manufacturing/pollution/disposal of batteries.....

They will never have the required capacity/weight

They will get more dangerous with every "advance" in capacity/charging - they are blooming dangerous now.

There will never be a suitable charging infrastructure to support overnight charging, never mind fast charging (consider one car per household and how much electricity you need to generate)

Diesel powered engines will always blow electric cars out of the water for overall efficiency and life time green credentials.

No one ever talks about electric car inefficencies i.e.
Power station generation - 50%
Transmission/substation efficiency - 90%
Battery charger ac/dc conversion - 85%
Battery charging/discharge energy efficiency - 80%
Motor control - 80%
Motor electromechanical efficiency - 80%

Ball park overall efficiency of < 20%

Compare with >40% for diesels, some are >50%


Nissan/Toyota are playing a game to get government money for free.


BTW history shows that 3rd world countries rich in resouces are alway raped/pillaged by 1st world countries for the raw material so that the 1st world countries can continue to live their life styles.

Edited by brum on 21/07/2009 at 19:30

Nissan to invest in UK factory - carl_a
No one ever talks about electric car inefficencies i.e.
Power station generation - 50%
Transmission/substation efficiency - 90%
Battery charger ac/dc conversion - 85%
Battery charging/discharge energy efficiency - 80%
Motor control - 80%
Motor electromechanical efficiency - 80%
Ball park overall efficiency of < 20%
Compare with >40% for diesels some are >50%



I'm not sure wether your figures are right or wrong but the figures you give for an electric car is for the whole process. The one figure you give for a diesel is from the tank, the fuel doesn't magically appear in there! Its extracted, refined, pumped for miles, transported onto a tanker, transported thousands of miles via tanker, offloaded, shipped by road to the fuel station, pumped into the fuel station. You then pump the fuel into your car. So whats the overall efficency of all that then?

Of course then there are lots of other things about fuel cars, such as all the oil for the engine, this needs to be recycled, extracted and shipped several times too. Then there are the processes needed to make the engine, gearbox, clutch etc.

With an electric car there is also regeneration under braking or slowing down saving even more energy. Once made an electric car is a very clean device, little maintenance required, so not so much wasted energy having to visit garages.

Edited by carl_a on 22/07/2009 at 22:52

Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
Battery cars will never be more than fringe product. Not even considering the
cost/manufacturing/pollution/disposal of batteries.....


Consider the cost of manufacturing an electric motor compared to that of a IC engine. Where is the pollution in making electric car batteries? Why is it worse than that from making IC engines? What about EOL recycling?

They will never have the required capacity/weight


They already have. If they haven't, then please explain why.

They will get more dangerous with every "advance" in capacity/charging - they
are blooming dangerous now.


Interesting. How?

There will never be a suitable charging infrastructure to support overnight
charging never mind fast charging (consider one car per household and how
much electricity you need to generate)


Pick up your charged batteries at the garage, just as you now pick up fuel.

Diesel powered engines will always blow electric cars out of the water for
overall efficiency and life time green credentials.


Shall we have some figures?

No one ever talks about electric car inefficencies ....
Ball park overall efficiency of < 20%


Hm. Someone's playing a strange game with their balls in that park...

Compare with >40% for diesels some are >50%


Wow! Which ones? A good car petrol engine is about 25% efficient. What diesel car engine is more than about 35% efficient? I'd really like to know!

Nissan/Toyota are playing a game to get government money for free.


Yup. Business is business, but it doesn't affect the laws of nature (physics, thermodynamics, W.H.Y.).
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Kevin
FT,

for something like Li-ion batteries the cost of transport, either raw materials or finished product, is totally insignificant.

The biggest proportion will be the cost of mining and refining the Lithium which is the same wherever the batteries are put together. The next highest will be the production costs that are very dependent on where the batteries are made. Employment, energy, regulatory and tax regimes.

Shipping the Lithium gel from somewhere like China so that Gazza in Sunderland can wrap it in plastic and add a charging regulator (probably made in China anyway) does not make business sense unless subsidies and grants outweigh the lower production costs elsewhere for the expected life of the plant.

This is just Gormless Gordon and that disgusting creature Mandelson buying votes again with taxpayer's money, nothing more.

Kevin...
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Mr X
Come the day we stop giving foreign companies bribes... sorry, meant incentives to operate in the UK, we'll be knocked off our feet by the rush to the airports and deafened by the slamming of factory doors as they shut up shop.
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Blue {P}
And the fact that the Sunderland factory is already built and already the most efficient Nissan plant in the EU would have nothing to do with Nissan's decision? No I can see it now, far better to build a plant in China to build the things in a less politically-stable country with an unknown standard of labour.

To clarify - my post is in reply to Kevin.

Edited by Blue {P} on 21/07/2009 at 22:47

Nissan to invest in UK factory - Kevin
>And the fact that the Sunderland factory is already built..

The battery plant will be a completely new plant.

>No I can see it now, far better to build a plant in China to build the things in a less
>politically-stable country with an unknown standard of labour.

Less politically stable?

Thank-you. That's really brightened my day. You reckon the CPC are going to be routed at the next election?

Unknown standard of labour?

Check almost any piece of electronic gear and you'll find it was manufactured or assembled in China. My Olympus D-SLR was "Made in China", the fibre channel adapters installed in our servers were "Made in China". BT have sourced the kit to upgrade the UK data/voice network from China. Chinese labour standards are far from unknown and assembling batteries won't need many PhDs.

I have alot of sympathy for the Nissan and Corus employees who have been shafted but it still does not alter the fact that this venture does not make business sense for Nissan unless they are getting subsidies and grants courtesy of the UK taxpayer.

Kevin...

PS. Did you mean "politically stable" or politically correct?

Edited by Kevin on 22/07/2009 at 00:29

Nissan to invest in UK factory - Blue {P}
Possibly haven't used the right terminology, obviously CPC aren't going out of power anytime soon, possibly politically correct may be closer to what I mean, the impression that I have had of China is that the government basically can have their own way with anything and don't really answer to anyone. Here, one way or another, we are still a democracy.

A lot of the components in your Chinese made gear won't have been made in China, much of it is simply assembled there. It is my (possibly mis-informed) understanding that the work done in the UK will be more than just putting together the ready-made materials but maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, chucking up an extra building on an existing site that is a totally known quantity and hiring (or re-hiring) a few extra staff must be easier than starting from scratch with no workforce and maybe will lead to some sort of trade advantages as within the EU etc?

Besides, if there are any government subsidies, surely we could find out with a simple FOI request or is this not covered?
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Mr X
'the government basically can have their own way with anything and don't really answer to anyone.'
That sums up the UK perfectly !
Nissan to invest in UK factory - Kevin
>A lot of the components in your Chinese made gear won't have been made in China, much of it
>is simply assembled there.

20 years ago I might have agreed with you Blue, but it most definitely isn't the case now. In fact the situation is reversed. Many products without a "Made in China" sticker contain components made in China.

>Either way, chucking up an extra building on an existing site that is a totally known quantity..

The UK is only a totally known quantity if you realise that labour costs, business rates, taxes and energy prices will be an order of magnitude higher than either China, Bolivia or Chile. Add in an unstable currency and the prospect of even higher taxes for years to come and the UK is not an attractive place for new business.

It just does not make sense. Unless it's not your money on the line?

>Besides, if there are any government subsidies,

It was part of the announcement that the deal was secured with the offer of grants and loan guarantees "to create the UK's first Low Carbon Economic Area".

In effect, Nissan's £200 million "investment" will be a Govt. backed loan supplemented with Govt. grants.

This whole venture can go TU and Nissan can probably walk away losing next to nothing. The taxpayer is picking up the bill.

Kevin...
Nissan to invest in UK factory - FotheringtonThomas
This whole venture can go TU


No, it can't, it's not allowed to, due to the Great Push for Clean Vehicles.

Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 23/07/2009 at 00:12

Nissan to invest in UK factory - Blue {P}
Believe me, if the government only spent £200 million to keep the factory here they would be getting a very good deal, if it went TU and we lost it the closure would devastate the region for the foreseeable future with a much higher overall cost to UK PLC.

I work for the second biggest employer in Sunderland and we don't even employ half the staff that they currently do in the factory alone, never mind the supporting industries. There simply aren't enough vacancies available in the north east to soak up the number of unemployed people that would be on the market if Nissan disappeared, well, certainly not the kind of jobs with pay anywhere near the level that Nissan staff earn.