ABS is almost redundant in a car that is carefully driven. Were I considering whether to take a long drive in a Volvo with disconnected ABS, my only concern would be whether the brakes worked normally with the ABS disconnected, something that should be easy to check.
Trouble would only result in the event of a serious accident. Only the OP can decide whether that is a risk worth taking. Physical risk trumps legal risk nearly every time (to me, that is).
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Hmm interesting, hadn't thought of that- thanks for your responses.
But does that mean that as soon as anything that's an MOT failure happens, your insurance is invalid? Would it depend on knowledge (ie the ABS has a light that comes on) rather than the actuality? It would seem churlish to invalidate insurance just because of a split gaiter say, that was difficult to see, for example. Does it depend on roadworthyness, but then how are we defining that? If the ABS light came on, would you therefore be bound to stop driving until it was fixed?
Most confusing!
Any legal eagles got any thoughts?
Cheers,
Alex.
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or else find the fuse for the ABS light and remove it (as long as it doesn't stop anything else working)
light doesn't come on - end of problem,
simplesss!
:-)
Edited by commerdriver on 07/07/2009 at 16:30
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That would be a deliberate interference with the braking system - definitely not insurance friendly and probably illegal.
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That would be a deliberate interference with the braking system - definitely not insurance friendly and probably illegal.
.....Says someone who would quite happily drive away after causing an accident.....
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(sticks tongue out)
Edited by brum on 07/07/2009 at 16:44
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(sticks tongue out)
To be honest, Mr Rum, that used to be one of my favourite jokes; 'The people watching me think I am writing down my particulars.' Hehehehe
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That would be a deliberate interference with the braking system
Since the ABS does not work at the moment it would be a deliberate interference with the warning light not the braking system.
The suggestion was made tongue in cheek however.
I think we are overstating the problem a bit, in the grand scheme of things ABS is probably one of the least used features of most modern cars, unless I am misunderstanding totally.
I have had ABS on my last 4 cars and in something around 400k miles it has kicked in once apart from when I tried to make it work on snow a few times.
In real driving with proper observation you should not need to use it.
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anything that's an MOT failure happens, your insurance is invalid? >>
It would seem churlish to invalidate insurance >>
They have no fear of being seen as churlish. IMO, most will first look at their options for getting out of paying you anything at all, and if they cannot do that, then they will be looking at ways of minimising their costs.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/item.htm?id=6462
Perhaps you should ask the BIBA for their opinion.
IMO, legal eagles will give you their opinion once you pay a consultation fee, and then it is quite likely to be a very wooly answer. No definite answers in Law until they get tested all the way to the Lords or the superior EU courts.
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>>ABS is almost redundant in a car that is carefully driven
Not so.
One of the lesser discussed functions of a reasonably modern ABS is to act as the pressure reducing valve for the brakes on the rear axle. So, driving with ABS de-activated is not safe as rear brake locking becomes possible.
The ABS light, indicating ABS failure is an MOT failure point, and in this case, as described above, can mean the car becomes unsafe to drive.
Note, there is not complete overlap between what constitutes an MOT failure and what can be prosecuted as an offence (probably via construction and use regulations). So, it's possible for a dangerous car to correctly pass an MOT, and it's also possible for a safe car to fail one - the MOT is just a series of mandated test aspects, and makes no pretence of completeness or rigour.
The insureres would not be able to avoid paying their 3rd party liabilities, but, they could begin to claim this back from you if the fault with the car was material to the accident.
So, if you pull out in front of someone, the ABS lamp being lit will change nothing, whereas if you skid into the back of someone, or spin the car while braking as the rear brakes have locked up, then the ABS failure would become material.
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One of the lesser discussed functions of a reasonably modern ABS is to act as the pressure reducing valve for the brakes on the rear axle. So, driving with ABS de-activated is not safe as rear brake locking becomes possible.
But are the electronic parts of the ABS involved in that, NC? The pressure reduction to the rear brakes used to work mechanically, in response to the change in the vehicle's attitude under braking. In a car with 'reasonably modern ABS', does the pressure reduction work mechanically or electronically? If the latter, then the only way to find out if the car is dangerous in that state is to go somewhere safe and try some increasingly heavy braking.
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>>But are the electronic parts of the ABS involved in that, NC?
It's an electronic function, commanding a solenoid valve, and not something to be messed about with IMO.
ABS has a few phases or modes of operation, and before the full pedal juddering, return pump pulsing mode of operation, there's the mode which the driver cannot feel where the pressure in a brake line is prevented from further rise by a solenoid operated valve. It is this that mimics the mechanical valves of old.
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It is this that mimics the mechanical valves of old.
Just as I feared then. One would need to try some heavy braking to see if it was liveable-with in that state, and then exercise great caution on the road if it turned out more or less driveable. Perhaps not a very good idea. But one would have to try the car to know.
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didn't know that, I assumed it was only the anti lock function.
Supplementary question NC how likely would rear wheel locking be in this situation, is it only in the case of really heavy braking?
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I think NC is correct, I seem to recall pressure limiters are no longer fitted and rely on the ABS to do the job.
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>>how likely would rear wheel locking be in this situation
It varies.
The way this is more formally assessed is to produce a mathematical model of the braking system, and the car's layout and mass distribution, and plot curves of "adhesion utilisation". These curves will show the dangerous ranges of deceleration.
The curves of adhesion utilisation for the raw system showing dangerous rear locking would then provide the starting point for the rear pressure reducing valve, whether it be a straight pressure limiting valve, a G valve, or a load sensing valve.
It's fair to say that gentle braking won't be a problem!
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NC
Whilst I accept that ABS has overtaken the need for pressure limiting (or load sensitive proportioning?) valves for the rear wheels, does the ABS actually have individual circuits for each wheel? Whilst I know that there are individual sensors per wheel, and I have always assumed that there are 4 independent feeds, am I actually correct? I cannot recall the pipe layout on my old BX (4yrs ago) which was the last car that I actually worked on with an ABS issue.
p
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Many cars in my experience have separate hydraulic feeds for each front wheel, and a single common feed to the rears. They've all been pretty old vehicles, mind you :-)
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Yes, modern ABS does deal with all 4 wheels independantly - older systems did use a method called "select low", which controlled both rear brakes on the basis of whichever signal from the rear sensors was showing the most incipient lock up. The system on my W124 is more basic still, relying upon only one rear sensor mounted in the nose of the axle!
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In the entirely hypothetical situation that the ABS had failed AND so had the warning light telling of the failure, would a person driving the car in a normal style be any the wiser? I appreciate that on ignition switch on the light comes on (as a test?) and then goes out but how many of us would notice that?
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I doubt if many would notice it in 'normal' driving personally, the problem arises when you have to make that emergency stop to avoid hitting the minibus full of nuns and ickle fluffy kittnes or whatever.
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How is a car that has EBD, (Electronic Brakeforce Distibution), effected by ABS failure? I am thinking rear brake pressure regulation, or lack of.
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The insurance company will/may wriggle, but they are wrong. UNLESS you knew about it.
Get it do you?? Do you???
MD
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Would it count as Con and Use offence of failing to maintain brakes maybe ?
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The insurance company will/may wriggle but they are wrong. UNLESS you knew about it. Get it do you?? Do you??? MD
>>
Do you think that insurance company investigators wouldnt peruse popular motoring forums? Good place to to get wind of scams I would think.
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Do you think that insurance company investigators wouldnt peruse popular motoring forums? Good place to to get wind of scams I would think.
You Old Navy are missing my point. I am not trying to be devious, but I hope I am talking fact.
Similar situation of which I am very much aware as closely connected with same. View the old terraced houses of 100 years ago that abound in our cities. Look at the Chimneys and their condition. How they stand up is beyond me, but they do. In the event of one crashing down and going through the neighbour's fence/car/Jack Russell etc. I am in receipt of advice that says that unless you were aware of the dilapidated condition then your Insurance will hold good because you, as just the mere owner of the house and not a Surveyor etc. could not reasonably be expected to know what is what. AFAI presume, and that is just that, a presumption, then I would be happy to expect a similar situation to exist with my car. After all an M.O.T. if passed, is fine just at that point, but what if when travelling from the M.O.T station the abs pumped failed as did the bulb in the warning light. How could you REASONABLY be expected to know?
Very best regards.......Martin D.
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You Old Navy are missing my point. I am not trying to be devious but I hope I am talking fact.
I am not missing anything, knowingly using a defective car will probably invalidate his insurance. The OP knows his car is duff. Not admitting it could lead to perjury. You can tell I have no legal training. :-)
Edited by Old Navy on 07/07/2009 at 21:22
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If the car was involved in a serious accident the chances are that it would be examined by Police Vehicle Examiner and the broken ABS would probably/possibly come to light. I would imagine it would attract sanction. If the Police proved that the driver/owner knew of the defect it would be deep poo poo.
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If the Police proved that the driver/owner knewof the defect it would be deep poo poo.
If he KNEW. I agree with you too PU.
MD
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I am not missing anything KNOWINGLY using a defective car will probably invalidate his insurance.The OP knows his car is duff. Not admitting it could lead to perjury. You can tell I have no legal training. :-)
And I said "The insurance company will/may wriggle but they are wrong. UNLESS you KNEW about it". i.e in agreement avec vous.
Best reg's.......MD
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I agree that admitting that you know your car is defective is not a good idea. Now it has been discussed here it will be difficult to deny that knowledge, google for volvo 850 abs? First page result!
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re. bell boy's link : >> www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ >>
more details of that case here
www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Deathcrash-driver-39w...p
" .... every time the ignition of the Volvo road sweeper was turned the ABS system carried out a self test and the driver would be alerted to a fault by a warning light on the dashboard and information on a screen in the cab.
Police inquiries revealed the fault was "long-standing" and had been present at least 127 times when the vehicle had been started up .... "
www.morleyobserver.co.uk/news/Death-crash-sweeper3...p
" .. A MECHANIC claims he was asked to falsify safety documents after an 18-tonne road sweeper crashed head-on into a family car, killing a Wakefield mum.
Leslie Cherryholme, an HGV fitter at Cleckheaton-based Angus Heron Ltd, said he created "a complete work of fiction" when completing service forms for the Volvo ... "
and the verdict:
www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Leeds-death-sm...p
" ... A DEATH smash road sweeper who told a string of lies in a bid to cheat justice has been jailed for seven years. ... "
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Shallower poo poo for failing to maintain a braking system, but still poo poo nonetheless
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For info, we are taking the expedient action of fixing the ABS ECU before the car goes out on the road again. Will borrow MiL's Accord to deliver FiL to Cornwall.
If we can't fix the ABS, I assume I'm ok to drive the car to the local garage for repair? AFAIR the manual advises this as action when the light comes on. I would drive with due diligence, naturally, and wait for a dry day.
Thanks for your contributions all, most enlightening!
BW,
Alex.
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