The story on the BBC website (via the link) says Tesco has agreed to change delivery times at one Devon store. Tron's post might be misleading and imply Tesco is changing all delivery times at all stores.
And your point is?
|
|
I think it looks like a very local solution to a very local problem and not a looming national policy. Happens all the time across the country with different problems.
|
|
|
Its actually quite a sensible idea for all lorries to be taken off the road for the morning and evening rush hours... There was aa big smash several years ago on the M42 in the rush hour in the fog and one of the comments made was that if the lorries hadn't been there the death and injury total woiuld have been considerably reduced... Probably speed up the rush hour as well...
Not sure how our resident HGV drivers will react, though!
|
There was aa big smash several years ago on the M42 in the rush hour in the fog and one of the comments made was that if the lorries hadn't been there the death and injury total woiuld have been considerably reduced...
Im not convinced about that, without the LGV's on the road, the average speed may increase, resulting in collisions at higher speed resulting in more serious injury's.
I do accept the fact that a collision between a LGV and a car does result in serious injury, but I feel the type of accident would change, rather than a reduction of accidents.
|
Im not convinced about that without the LGV's on the road the average speed may increase resulting in collisions at higher speed resulting in more serious injury's.
Now isn't that interesting. What a good view point TST. I'll go with that.
Best regards...........MD
|
|
|
Im not convinced about that without the LGV's on the road the average speed may increase resulting in collisions at higher speed resulting in more serious injury's.
It was a finding from the report into the accident - it was in the fog and whilst (as usual) people were driving too quickly the fact that the HGVs were there scatered amongst the cars did cause heavier impacts than it would have been if they weren't there... whether speed would have been increased if they weren't there is debateable - there would still have been cars going slowly anyhow and the road was very busy so its probably doubtful and even if it was increased by a few mph the impact between several cars is very different to a multiple pile-up involving HGVs...
|
|
|
|
|
|
mate of mine drove back from the south of France a day early a couple of weeks ago, from his 2 week family holiday...because he'd worked out that the lorries are off the road on a Sunday....and the drive down was so much more relaxing.. and quicker.
on the surface of it, preventing blockages between peak times e.g. 0800-0900 and 1600-1700 would be a good idea in our vilages, towns and cities
no doubt there'd be a cost though
|
So where is the magic line drawn. Do we stop the post office vans as well. What about the private parcel delivery firms. Will some towns end up with a complex system of which type of vehicle / business / individual can be on the road at which time of the day ?
' If it stops just one accident happening then it's all been worth while... " . Don't know why they just don't clear every vehicle off the roads and be done with it then we can all live safely and happily ever after.
|
Its quite simple, all goods vehicles are off the road during the morning and evening peaks, that includes those you mentioned... As previously said, its done in other countries at other times, so I can't see why it couldn't work over here.
Your comment in your final para, MrX, was both pointless and ott...
I thought that you'd be all for something that freed up traffic flow and had other side benefits such as less serious accidents...
|
I can hardly believe that there ares on many Tesco deliveries taking place at that one time that it warrants asking them to remove that time slot from their list.
We pass our tests, we insure our vehicles, we pay our RFL, we MOT them, we cough up a fortune in road fuel duties. Now some bright spark is deciding who should use the roads and at what times. Tesco delivery vans today, your plumber / milk man tomorrow.
Voluntary to start off with no doubt followed by ' Fixed penalty " notices in the future as individual councils see a nice little earner to be had, once again, all in the name of road safety.
|
I really can't see what your problem is, MrX... its not the thin end of the wedge, as you seem to be saying, its a sensible answer to an issue which affects all of us motorists...
Yes we all pay RFL, etc, etc, but if we all took your view we will end up with gridlock sooner rather than later, this is a common sense solution to a problem which affects all commuters... or would you rather we just allowed the queues to increase and your fellow motorist to fume? They don't need to deliver between those hours, it can be done at other times of the day (or night) so why not make it easier for all of us?
|
|
|
|
It would severely hamper a lot of transport operations if lorries were banned from the roads during peak times. Rush-hour congestion is largely caused by car drivers and the solution lies not in banning deliveries but in reducing the number of people who commute to work by car.
|
but in reducing the number of people who commute to work by car.
I accept that, but that would then restrict the freedoms MrX is campaigning for!
Tell me why a ban during the hours of, say, 7-9 and 1600-1830 would have such an impact on lorries? Surely they are capable of planning their breaks around those hours?
I tend to think the objections are more to do with MrX's "freedoms" rather than insurmountable problems on the lorry front...
|
Tell me why a ban during the hours of say 7-9 and 1600-1830 would have such an impact on lorries? Surely they are capable of planning their breaks around those hours?
There are set hours that LGV drivers can drive, and take rest breaks
tinyurl.com/lgvhours
e.g. * Maximum daily driving of 9 hours but can be extended to 10 hours 2 days a week.
* Weekly limit of 56 hours driving time.
* Maximum driving of 90 hours in each pair of weeks. So, for example, week 1 + week 2 must be less than 90 hours. Week 2 + week 3 must be less than 90 hours, and so forth...
* Maximum of 4.5 hours driving before having a break of at least 45 minutes. The 45 minutes can be split but the first must be a minimum of 15 minutes and the second must be at least 30 minutes.
so its not as easy as you may think. when driving thought has to be given to when you need to take a break, also you must take into account where the LGVs can physically park up...
|
|
|
|
We could all think of groups we'd like to ban between peak hours .Hence keeping every one happy will leave just a few cycles and a horse at the end of the day.
Frankly, with the amount of redundancies, factory closures and the cost of fuel, my view on peak hours ( in my area at least ) is that they are no where near as horrendous as some people imagine.
The gridlock forecasters are as bad as the climate change foretellers and the Weather forecasters .
|
|
I read it as a truck delivering to a Tesco not a van - The only wheeled vehicles I've seen delivering to stores are artics. May be wrong of course.
|
The only wheeled vehicles I've seen delivering to stores are artics. May be wrong of course.
Our local Tesco Express has deliveries on a large lorry but not an arctic. So it depends on the store size. Not saying you're wrong BTW :-)
|
|
As I say I'd stand corrected - not made it a study of it :-)
|
|
There are a few obvious, cheap, things that could be considered. Among many possibilities are;
1) stagger the school day, with some pupils beginning as early as 7 am, finishing at 1:30, and some pupils starting at 10 or 11, and working until 4:30 or 5:30. This would allow more working parents to fit shool hours and work hours together, or at least reducing the problem to be at one end of the day rather than both.
2) Incentivise employers to allow more working from home, rather than bringing in punitive workplace parking charges
3) For those who can't work from home introduce as much start / end time flexibility as possible to ensure that people can travel at quieter times.
|
|
|
The gridlock forecasters are as bad as the climate change foretellers and the Weather forecasters .
Boy, do you have your head burried deep in the sand... if we continue to increase the amount of traffic as we are at the moment do you really, honestly, think that our roads can cope?
Edited by b308 on 17/06/2009 at 17:31
|
|
Back in the 1800's, some intellectual decreed that if the number of horse drawn carriages in London continued to increase at the rate they were doing so, the droppings ( can't say manure on here ) would be an average of 3 foot deep on the streets. It never happened. Not because of a ban on such transportation but because these things have a way of balancing out.
|
the droppings would be an average of 3 foot deep on the streets. It never happened. Not because of a ban on such transportation but because these things have a way of balancing out.
Err, no, it was because there were people employed to clean it up, if it had been left then no doubt it could have reached 3ft in time!
I am not advocating a blanket ban, just in certain locations where it would benefit traffic flow to have such a ban - banning HGVs on the M6 over Shap between 7 and 9 would be pointless, but banning them in the section past Birmingham at the same times could be very beneficial...
|
|
Once we take a way the concept that every one on the road has equal rights to it's usage, then we will finally have arrived at a point that certain political parties seem keen to want to reach as soon as possible.
|
Once we take a way the concept that every one on the road has equal rights to it's usage
MrX, we already have that now, mopeds, cyclists and pedestrians are not allowed to use motorways, there are bus only lanes, one way streets, parking/loading restrictions, the list is endless...
A restriction like this is one of those which serves to benefit the majority of road users for the period of time it would be set for, sometimes you really need to look at the bigger picture.
Swiss Tony, I was aware of the restrictions that lorry drivers are bound by, and that is why I do feel that if the restrictions were purely rush hour and limited locations then it could work ok... Its not been mentioned here, but I believe a lot of delivery lorries drive overnight and are already parked up at their destinations by 7am ready to unlod, so its not rocket science to apply it to all!
|
|
|
|
|
Your comment in your final para MrX was both pointless and ott...
Cut Mr. X a bit of slack. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong, but it's all down to a view. I quite liked his last para', but then I would. Accidents are caused by people not concentrating on the job in hand and travelling too fast for the conditions/circumstances.
One HUGE lesson that should be taught to all drivers is the speed thing. Not speeding per say, but the fact that average journey times don't fall much at all when one is trying to go hell for leather when there is a half mile of free road. You soon race up against a new obstacle. Frustrating I know, but a fact of life. The only two things that do improve of course when tearing along is Petrol companies and Brake pad manufacturers profits.
|
|
|
|
So where is the magic line drawn. Do we stop the post office vans as well. What about the private parcel delivery firms. Will some towns end up with a complex system of which type of vehicle / business / individual can be on the road at which time of the day ?
Good heavens above MR X you have echoed my thoughts exactly!
In a nutshell: Now one company has agreed to do this, albeit in one small (area as so correctly stated) will others follow?
Will this be the start of prioritising the school run in the name of safety?
|
|
School Run ? Where is that mentioned in the report - the report specifically talks about children walking to school, what kids have done for generations and what we should be encouraging kids to do now. Its hardly chaos theory stuff here guys !
|
Exminster Community Consultation Day - 24/01/2009
By: PC Ken English
On Thursday 22nd January 2009 186 residents of Exminster, of all ages, were spoken to by the local Neighbourhood Team in relation to issues that affect them and their neighbourhood.
It was reassuring to see that 96% of those spoken to felt either very or fairly safe within their neighbourhood. The remaining 4% who felt unsafe, stated that this was due to the volume and speed of traffic through the village.
36% of those who were spoken to had no complaints with the quality of life in the village.
26% of respondents raised the issue of parking as their main concern, with the key area being outside of Tesco's and the School in the village centre.
21% of respondents stated that speeding and the sheer volume of traffic in the village was a concern, whilst 8% felt that anti social behaviour was an issue for Exminster. No specific area was identified as being a problem though.
Smaller issues that were raised involved lighting (1%), littering (1%), dog fouling (1%), noise (2%), Young people loitering (2%) and wanting an increased Police presence in the village (2%).
These results will now be shared with the Parish Council, and any other interested parties as part of the PACT consultation procedure. We will be working with our partners to tackle the issues that you have raised.
We will be holding regular monthly surgeries in the village, as well as in other locations. Please see this website for the dates and times as it is an opportunity for you to come along and voice your concerns.
Lifted from Devon and Cornwall Police's site - maybe this was the start of it.
|
'26% of respondents raised the issue of parking as their main concern, with the key area being outside of Tesco's and the School in the village centre. '
I very much doubt that people are traveling from all over the UK to use their branch of Tesco or the local school so it's likely that those parking selfishly are locals who live in or very close to the place.
Thus it is so in just about every town and village in Britain.
|
Our local Tesco Express (after so much opposition to the store years ago at approval stage) agreed not to deliver on Sundays and early morning etc from the outset. Standard Tesco policy it seems.
And despite opposition it is often very busy - especially 5-6pm on SAT/SUN.
|
There is a a lot of traffic around our local supermarkets. Huge free car parks but at busy times it is often necessary to queue to get into them. Our nearest one is about 2 miles away but due to congestion it can take up to 25 minutes to get there by car.
Whether this is contributed to by deliveries I wouldn't know but I do know that if more people walked to the shops it would reduce the traffic.
My parent's generation did walk to shop. They often had wheeled shopping trolley style bags which they towed along. They used to catch each others ankles with them but they were otherwise pretty environmentally friendly. My mother had a similar distance to travel to the shops as we do but she walked. Ironically it took about the same amount of time. There were fewer fat people too. Might not be a coincidence......
I shall speak to my wife about getting her a wheeled shopping bag........I'm sure she'll see the sense in it......Can't not can she ?
;-)
|
I really don't care whether trucks are banned from the roads or not, it'll make my working day much shorter insofar as i'll still do a full day, probably 12 hours but instead of doing 11 hours work i'll only do 8.
So to cover the delivery schedule will mean an increase of truck fleets by some 20%, hope no one minds double figure inflation quickly following.
Can't wait, any other suggestions to hasten the bankruptcy of our country?
Supermarkets often have delivery restrictions to abide by and a lot of them are common sense, for example i used to stop and turn the fridge off before arriving at a supermarket in a residential area, it's just good manners really.
One South East London shop had a rear entrance beside a block of flats, one of our drivers didn't turn his fridge off as he reversed in and he was narrowly missed by a domestic fridge pitched from the top of said flats....he turned the fridge off after that.;)
|
Since the vast majority of our deliveries are requested by the customer from 7am to 10am, I would like to suggest that all cars are banned from the road during those hours to enable us lorry drivers to do this effiently and on time.
If you actually banned lorries in the rush hour, have you thought what would happen when the Mum, having just done the school run for at least a quarter of a mile up the road, then wants to go to the supermarket, another 500 yards up the road?
There would be no fresh milk, bread, veg or fruit, the shelves would be empty.
What would happen then? She would demand a better service but that service has to come with a modicum of inconvenience.
As GB says drivers hours allow for a 45 minute break, no more, and to have a break of 4.5 hours in a day as suggested above would be tantamount to commercial suicide for every firm involved with road transport.
My answer to the problem would be to ban anyone from taking a child to school in a car unless they lived more than a mile away and even this would need a permit.
All schools would be forced to provide a car park for pick up and drop off.
Every firm should stagger start and finish times, not just voluntarily but by allocating start times from 6am to 10am.
Two simple measures but halving the problem in one swoop.
Pat
|
I drive down to Spain most years for 2 weeks in Summer.
After passing Barcelona the HGV's are not allowed on the road between 7am and 3pm each Saturday, going North and South.
This has the effect of keeping the heavy traffic moving quite freely and stops bottlenecks on the mountainous sections.
Not a bad idea, but how would it be enforced over here?
|
Not a bad idea but how would it be enforced over here?
I know trials were held regarding vehicles above 7.5t not being allowed to use the outside lanes on some dual carriageways at given times during the day.
As I recall this was on the A42 and I am not sure if the trial is still being monitored or not?
We all know so many of our roads are gridlocked. Will this one little goodwill gesture of an 'event' in Devon snowball?
Is this a very good and clever PR exercise on behalf of Tesco that has now given them so much free advertising too?
Bet the rest of the supermarkets follow....
Edited by Tron on 17/06/2009 at 22:47
|
|
I hear a butterfly flapping its wings.
|
I saw dozens of butterflies at Chirk Castle on Sunday and saw/heard even more bees.
I see this thread going nowhere at the moment ;-)
|
I always find it amusing when one of these rants turns up. It proves to me that more adults believe in Santa Claus (or at least the mechanics of his delivery system) than I thought.
Ladies and gentlemen, for the umpteenth time, this is not going to happen. As pda says, lorry drivers and their employers already have to cope with enough delivery restrictions as it is. Virtually every city in the UK, and a good deal of smaller towns, operate a time limit on vehicle deliveries in the centre, and despite considerable advances in logistics technology it is still impossible for one vehicle to be in more than one place at a time. As gordonbennet rightly notes, more restrictions mean more delivery vehicles which in turn means higher delivery costs, more pollution and higher prices in the shops.
Supermarkets and the like can easily cope with night-time deliveries, smaller businesses cannot and they still need lorries to get their stuff to where you can buy it.
Why is it that commuters think that their vehicle's presence on the road is far more important than the commercial vehicles who keep their industries and services going? The commuter, after all, has the option of using public transport; delivery vehicles do not. If there ain't no public transport, and you're that bothered about the number of vehicles on the road, might I suggest that a change of home address or job would solve the problem? ;-)
|
Hear hear, Mr Hman. I can't stand peeps who winge about how long it takes to get to work.
If you are that bothered then either move or get a job a bit nearer.
I also agree with whoever it was that said ban the school run.
Get off your fat backside and WALK the little darlings to school - after all, it is only 500 yards away.
Edited by rtj70 on 18/06/2009 at 02:24
|
Classic case of "we've always done it this way and its impossible for us to do it any other way"... Pat, your post says it all...
No wonder this country is in such a state when we can't even work out a simple way of easing traffic flow and, as a by product make roads safer for all...
Sad really.
|
>>>Its not been mentioned here, but I believe a lot of delivery lorries drive overnight and are already parked up at their destinations by 7am ready to unlod, so its not rocket science to apply it to all! <<<
It's not sad, it's simply not practical.
Having driven all night to get to our destination which is the delivery point, what do you suggest we do?
We are then legally forced to take a minimum of 9 hours off.
Do you suggest we take that time off in a customers yard, without a shower, or food and toilets being available? The daily business going on around you while you try to sleep in your bed in your cab?
Now that does bode well for a refreshed driver ready to start another shift, when you're all ready to leave work and go home to your home comforts, doesn't it?
Tron, I hope that remark doesn't apply to me?
Pat
|
It's not sad it's simply not practical.
I refer you to my previous post, Pat, this is one we will have to agree to disagree on, it is possible if there is a will to do it, clearly there isn't in your case.
|
Pat, think about it....its a fantastic idea!
you drive through the night, park up during the day, drive back to base the following night...
you could sell your house -after all you will never be there - and have loads of money in the bank!!!
not sure when you could spend it though, you would always be in your truck.....
Second thoughts... how about all commuters have beds in their offices, then they wouldnt need to be on the roads.... And they could sell their houses.......................................
|
Now that must be where we're both going wrong Tony:)
We both leave home about 2am on Monday and never get home before Friday evening about 8pm.
Our seperate cas are home all week and if we're lucky we get to wave at each other going in opposite directions on a motorway somewhere!
We don't need a house, do we?
Pat
|
|
I some times wonder if the congestion moaners have an optimum time in mind for their trip to work each day. What is it based on ?
|
Haven't got a clue, m8, I use the train where I can read a good book and not sit there stuck in a queue of traffic going nowhere and breathing in dirty air!
It seems to be the ultimate example of your freedom of the road... "I have a car therefore I'll use it"... even if its not the most sensible methods of getting from a to b in a lot of cases!
Edited by b308 on 18/06/2009 at 10:12
|
"I some times wonder if the congestion moaners..."
It takes one to recognise one.
|
surely this subject matter should be looked at from the perspective of the 'greater good' i.e. what is beneficial to the country as a whole...not from the perspective of an individual driver, delivery company or similar.... or even from the other angle, a commuter
so if it is indeed not cost effective to achieve, then so be it
however, if it could be achieved, even if it were to inconvenience some drivers/distributors, then there's no reason not to do a feasibility study
i don't think it should be dismissed out of hand
|
|
Thats my view as well, WP, but it seems that it will be attacking the personal freedoms of those who have a valid licence, RFL, etc to drive when and where they want.
|
The problem is that it cannot be achieved if you want product availability and a delivery service that has the profit margin cut to the bare bones.
The public want everything now with no thought whatsoever as to how it gets there.
Next time a lorry holds you up ask yourself what it's doing?
Why is it in your way?
Does it have any less right to be on the road than you do?
Is your journey absolutely necessary or is it from choice?
Tractors hold me up , specially in the summer, so much, but I appreciate that they carry produce that I buy from the supermarket and I learn to practice something my Mother taught me many years ago....................tolerance.
Pat
|
|
Pat, we are talking 2 hours in the morning, 2 in the evening, and only in certain locations, not nationwide 24 hour bans like some countries do... please get it in perspective... it is workable, but it will take some thought how to do it...
|
'not nationwide 24 hour bans'
Not yet but once councils see that fines can be levied on those breaching the hours they decide will count as non movement hours, they whole thing will spring up around the country and grow from there.
|
|
Thats rubbish, and you know it, MrX!
|
|
The Bus Only Lanes started in London. Now there's hardly a town or city in this country that doesn't have them, along with their cameras and their fines.
|
Pat we are talking 2 hours in the morning 2 in the evening and only in certain locations not nationwide 24 hour bans like some countries do... please get it in perspective...
B308,
That's exactly why it's not workable The two hours will inevitably be different between one town and another and even between zones in the same city. A logistical nightmare.
Anyway, as tthe relative P&Q from mid Julyto early September indicate, the real problem is the "school run".
|
That's exactly why it's not workable The two hours will inevitably be different between one town and another and even between zones in the same city.
Why? The rush hour is 7-9 in all the towns I know... but more importantly you have fallen into MrX's trap that he set up of assuming that it would apply to all towns and cities throught the country... but it wouldn't despite what he claims... Going into the centre of Brum, or on orbital motorways such as the M25, and the ones round Brum and Manchester there is a certain logic, but in towns such as I live it wouldn't make any difference either way and we just wouldn't have any, just as we don't have bus lanes either... I suspect that it would only apply to quite a small number of roads overall... so the overall effect on you and your fellow truckers would not be all that great.
However its all hypothetical, the story from the OP is one of common sense being applied for once, its a pity that those who use their cars to take their kiddies to school and then drive home because they are too lazy to walk don't take the same view as Tesco!
Edited by b308 on 19/06/2009 at 09:57
|
Pat,
i'd love to support you, and i applaud and agree with you, but you're flogging a dead horse talking common sense here.
Joe public still hates trucks and especially drivers with a vengeance, it's always been like that it always will be, we are to blame for the problems of the school run and probably most other congestion, you couldn't make it up.
Good sensible post by Harleyman earlier as well.
I've given up on this one, good luck.
|
|
The thread title covers trade vehicles, how many of the people supporting trade restrictions would be so keen if it included company cars?
|
Congestion is caused by drivers who don't need to drive not the reverse.. Can't remember the numbers but I do recall that some significant percentage of private vehicle journeys are of less than 2 miles. In other words, arguably unnecessary.
If more people who were able to were to walk instead of driving, those who need the roads to go about their business generating trade, moving the resulting goods and turning the economy would be able to get on with it so much more efficiently.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 18/06/2009 at 23:08
|
|
Humph; once again you have summed the situation up perfectly.
|
You.ve hit the nail on the head Humph.
Take the A14 as an example.
The worst parts for rush hour congestion are Cambridge, Huntingdon and the Kettering areas.
Now, watch the amount of cars that enter the A14 at one junction and exit via the next one, some barely managing to achieve more than 40MPH in the process.
Take a look at just what the lorries are overtaking in those areas and you will see the cause of the problem.
Those same cars managed to get from home to school, to the shops and back, before the A14 was built, but refuse to use the original roads now.
GB, I know I'm wasting my time but I'm sitting on a clifftop in Cornwall with a view to die for, so I have the time to do it this week and next!
Pat
|
Congestion is caused by drivers who don't need to drive not the reverse
Exactly. It's everyone else who is the problem. Why do they all have to come out during my rush hour?
|
Why don't we just remove all restrictions to road traffic, speed limits, traffic lights, road signs, etc, etc and just allow a free for all?
I sometimes wonder if that is the only way to satisfy some people....
|
|
|
|
|
