I?d appreciate some advice from the more knowledgeable legal types on here.
I am a director of a small company who manufacture specialist kit. We often do demos or installations at locations across the UK and in Europe. As the kit is quite large, we normally have to drive it there as it is a nightmare to fly it.
Recently we have started a project with partners in Munich (thanks to all who suggested routes there btw). This is a long drive, 650 miles or so from Calais, so when I went down there I made sure I was with a colleague who could share the driving.
My worry is this. We?ve recently leased a van as the new kit won?t fit in the back of a car. Despite my strong resistance, we?ve saved about £100 a month by not having aircon. I know that sounds trivial, but when I was in Munich last week it was already 27 degrees, and it?s likely to be 35+ by the time I do the trip in July. Frankly the thought of driving for 10 hours + in that heat scares me.
This time we solved the problem by driving back overnight. On the plus side the heat was no problem, and we hit no traffic and did the trip to Calais in about 10 hours of easy driving. On the minus side, we drove straight through the night after a full days work, following several long days of work, which left me feeling knackered for about a week afterwards, and although it felt okay at the time, I?m worried about corporate manslaughter.
I?ve protested strongly about the lack of aircon, but have been firmly told that it is a ?luxury we can?t afford?. I disagree, I think it?s a (health and) safety issue.
Where do I stand? More importantly, anyone got any ideas of what I can do?
Edited by Gordon M on 26/05/2009 at 16:54
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"anyone got any ideas of what I can do?"
Just as you probably don't deliver your post by hand, you use a courier to transport your items then meet it out there.
My wife does foreign trips to trade fairs - she'd never contemplate hiring a van, putting four pallets in the back and driving to Frankfurt.
They do UK fairs too and used to have an Espace as the company vehicle which doubled up as a load lugger. When the old boss left and the new one took over she got rid of the espace and now everything goes by courier.
Edited by daveyjp on 26/05/2009 at 17:08
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You say you are a director? I wouldnt worry much about it if i were you becuase you will be one of those jailed if a crash is caused due to company policy.
With respect to aircon there is no legal basis to insist on it. With respect to driving through the night after a days work then this is clearly criminaly responsible in the event of an accident.
You cant really link aircon and hours worked/rest.
As a director cant you insist on aircon?
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Shared driving, legal hours driving. No aircon in summer heat. Why £100 a month. Extra fuel??
Surely not. Items on here recently that show is more economical than with windows open etc. And Diesel abroad is cheapr than here.
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You might ask the Board if it has assessed the risk to the company, if you were incapacitated by injury, or legal sanctions, as a result of the demands of the job. This link might be of interest: tinyurl.com/rycu7n, and a site which deals with transport at work: tinyurl.com/r8qewp
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Davey, I have a lot of sympathy for your idea of a courier, but we are a start-up co. and the units we work with cost us about 9% of annual turnover - we don't have many and can't afford the potential loss / damage and time loss of couriers at the mo..
AE, that is exactly my concern - I'd be liable as I'm on the board. I have made my case strenuously, but I've been overruled by the CEO. I think driving through the night was ridiculous, but I also think that 650 miles will either be dangerously hot, or hellishly noisy with the windows down. Maybe I'm just soft though?
Woodspeed - the £100 was the additional lease cost - we managed to get a VW transporter for £190 a month brand new. It's a bargain, but I don't feel that it is fit for purpose.
Nortones, thanks, I'd been googling but your links are better than mine.
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>>I've been overruled by the CEO
Suggest the CEO does the driving?
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BUY BUY BUY. Never lease. It is far better to own something. Long wheelbase medium roof (6ft man can stand up in it) roof. Aircon, mirrors etc for about 13k + v.a.t. Mine has served me well.
usually one can get a good deal out of Renault on a 0% basis.
Best regards,
MD
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Sounds to me like you've been had by the Leasing Co. £100.00 pm my Aunt Fanny.
MD
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Gordon, I think that under UK law there could be a case for a) driving long hours following a days work and b) without air con in high ambient temperatures for long periods. Health and Safety is much misquoted and misunderstood but yes, you could apply a risk assessment to the activity. Once the RA is applied it must consider all risks associated with the task and the control measures put in place. Straightforward failings if the employer does not consider the risks at all. Someone else may disagree with me, and there is a subjective element to risk assessment itself. What I see as risk, you may not. Furthermore, you would have to consider the law of the country that you are in if you have an accident, but in some areas of law there can be a prosecution in the UK for matters occurring abroad.
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Gordon, I'm not a legal mind but the very least I'd do in your situation is cover my own backside by keeping evidence of my protestations to the board, minutes if available and accurate. It won't help the situation of course, or reduce the risk of the potential incidents you're concerned about, but it proves that you were aware and concerned of others' welfare.
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Gordon I'm not a legal mind but the very least I'd do in your situation is cover my own backside by keeping evidence of my protestations to the board minutes if available and accurate.
I guess that is a brilliant idea FD but as he may keep on keeping on with what is required, then his protestations will count for almost nowt methinks.
Only a Layman's view............MD
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MD, you might well be right, I really don't "know" the law in this case, but what other reasonable options are open to the OP? Does he jepoardise the entire business by crying to a third party? Not likely. If the board has heard and rejected his views, and this is documented, then I'd hope that would provide some mitigation.
Martyrdom's all very well but it never made a successful business.
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Having sat through a few of the hearings the OP fears, I think he is over-stressing the importance of aircon.
On the plus side, the company is running a new van, so tyres, brakes, etc should be all up to scratch.
Let's assume it's in no way overloaded.
So far, so good, but what will count badly against them come the evil day in court is the long hours without a break.
That is what needs to be got rid off here and that is where I would concentrate my efforts.
Keep a log of each journey - even though you may not need to, issue written instructions to employees, no more than two hours driving at a time, and while we're about it, no mobile phone calls.
All these things will help you twice over, they reduce the chances of the worst happening, and if it does, they reduce your culpability in court.
Air con, compared to all that lot, is an irrelevance.
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Mitigate the heat issues by taking good cold drinks, sensible breaks and driving first thing in the morning. Heat only become a real issue if stuck in traffic jams, so plan your trip around the local conditions. At 80 mph on the motorway you'll be fairly comfortable, even if it's 30C.
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the sensible thing to do is get a good nights kip in a cheap hotel somewhere in the middle of nowhere and travel next day and book the room to expenses
no way would i do what you are doing
i would have wanted aircon too,friend of mine had to wait months for a sprinter with the aircon fitted at the factory on a long wheel base van as he is always in europe delivering stuff like you are contemplating/he sleeps in his van at the shows
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A lease on that is about £200 a month. Aircon pack is £736, so would have cost about £21 a month on a 3 year lease.
But there is no point going on about that now, because they will be tied in for a couple of years at least now.
Finish the job, stay overnight and next day and drive that night if you have too. Get a full break day.
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You're only kidding yourself if you think aircon's going to make much difference, mate.
If you were delivering stuff in a heavy goods vehicle you would (quite rightly) be restricted in the hours you can work or drive. What makes you think you'll be any less tired in a small van?
If you're really desperate enough for the business to condone driving all night after a full day at the office, you're in the wrong trade. It simply is not worth the risk.
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Employ a driver to take the van, and you can then fly out/back as required. Price your products accordingly.
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Lots of relevant knowledge to contrubute to this topic...
Firstly, the Working Time Directive requires that you take a 9 hour break after no more than 15 hours' work, whether that work involves driving or not. This comes on top of the tachograph legislation limiting you to 9 hours' driving per day for vehicles larger than 3.5 tonnes. So if you start work at 6am (say) you must be finished by 9pm at the latest.
Secondly, us courier firms are very reasonably priced ;-) as well as fully insured and above all bloomin' careful! Because in these competitive times we need to deliver decent service to ensure repeat business.
Thirdly, 5 or more years ago aircon was an unattainable luxury in a van, 10 years ago it was unusual even in a lorry - yet professional drivers sweated out the hot weather without blaming it for fatigue or accidents. I have know van drivers in a heatwave strip to their pants to keep cool...
And fourthly, did I mention how little us couriers can charge for a job like this?
I personally have delivered and collected businesses' show equipment to and from the NEC, G-MEX etc, providing a factory-to-showstand service moving brand new, state-of-the-art kit without it coming to any harm whatsoever.
Just a thought.
Dave TD.
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Isn't it a more general case of driving/working while fatigued? I suspect that your legal responsibility will be the same irrespective of whether any accident/injury is caused by heat exhaustion, lack of sleep, illness or medication.
Kevin...
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Not reading all posts due to poor connection from hotel...
... all I can say is corporate manslaughter etc has changed some things for us. For years we have tried to get people to take the option to get out of the company scheme for cars.... not anymore. We are at least saying the opposite.
You are right to worry about what might happen if there was an accident - but will lack of air con be a legal reason? I think the vehicle needs it too but legally are you liable?
If I had to drive a non-air con vehicle (I used to in the eighties as did many of us) then I might say I need to stop more often to cool me and car down.
As for my first air-con car.... also got a sun-roof. Air-con was not standard in 1999 in a Golf GTi 1.8T so cannot see how this is a H&S issue in 2009. In 1999 you didn't get air-con as standard in Golf GTi's!
Edited by rtj70 on 26/05/2009 at 23:57
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You'd probably find some H&S breach - be interested to know whether there was a specific RA in respect of vehicle use and whether there was a Control Measure for this scenario.
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Gordon
Presume it is under 3500kg and does not require a Tachograph.
Have recently looked into this for my employer who has fitted trackers to around 200 vans. Policy changes as a result of KNOWING what the drivers are doing include speed limit enforcement and mandatory driving breaks / maximum hours.
Wise thing to do would be to use the rules for vehicles over 3500kg as a guide and limit driving hours. This will be more expensive.
On a personal note advice to our transport manager has been to ensure he has a record of what he wants to do, and the refusal of the company to do it, then if there is an incident he is in the clear. Suggest you do the same.
UK law has changed recently to make prosecution of companies and managers easier where the company has caused death. Not aware of any prosecutions yet.
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