Hydrogen fuel cells. costly at present but space/weight efficient.
The trouble seems to be "where does the hydrogen come from?", or, rather, "where does the energy to make the hydrogen come from?", as it needs *lots*. I seem to remember reading that hydrogen's also difficult to store, and the energy available per unit volume isn't very good.
However, the question was specifically about electricity storage - will it take 10 years to develop something suitable?
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Lithium-Ion, weight for weight twice as good as nickel-metal hydride and four times as good as lead acid, I read today in a piece of hack work I am doing.
However nothing is said about cost or volume, just weight.
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Lithium-Ion
However nothing is said about cost or volume just weight.
That's a difficulty, isn't it - were these far cheaper, they might be suitable, but at the moment, they aren't (unless you can pay for, for instance, a Lightning, which at £100,000+ most people can't, even with £5,000 from the Gov't).
Perhaps they will become much cheaper? I wonder where the major expense in making such batteries is.
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Just a guess, but how about March 18th 2015?
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It's here already. The media is full of news about new electric and hybrid projects.
We know that pure electric cars can't achieve the range of diesel or petrol cars, but not all vehicles need that range.
I think the norm for the future will plug-in hybrids, with electric drive and a diesel engine powering a generator to boost power or just to recharge batteries.
Renault has recently announced that it is giving up research on hybrids to concentrate on pure electric cars.
I don't see a big future for fuel cells of hydrogen fuelled internal combustion engines.
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I think that combined with good storage, for practical purposes to extend the range there will always be a need for on-board generation to top up batteries and this might be by fuel cells, a small petrol or diesel generator, solar panels, or a combination.
I don't know if current V C & U regulations would allow a generator to run whilst the vehicle was unattended?
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Quote:...""I don't know if current V C & U regulations would allow a generator to run whilst the vehicle was unattended? ""
Presumably if the engine driving the generator has no means of physical, mechanical connection to the wheels, leaving it running while unattended might not be covered by current legislation.
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I'd like to be proven wrong on this but I don't see any viable battery technology appearing in the next couple of years. As well as the problem with energy density there is the problem of safety. The latest high density Litium Ion batteries explode violently if punctured or overcharged (e.g. if the battery management fails).
Over the last 120 years or so, car manufacturers have become very good at storing and managing highly explosive hydrocarbon fuel in a way that makes it safe except in all but the most extreme circumstances. I think it will be a long time until batteries even approach this level of energy density and safety.
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There was an article in Autocar about electric companies "using" the batteries of plugged in electric cars to top up the mains (at times of demand)
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I'm with bagpuss - any major step forward in battery technology is many years away. Battery technology has been under development and research for 100's of years and all we are making is small incremental steps forward. What is really needed is a major new advance, many people are seeking this as whoever cracks it will become very rich and powerfull.
If someone came out with a new battery tomorrow that only weighed 10kilos, could store enough energy to give an electric car a 400 mile range, could be produced cheaply, had a good lifespan, was safe, didn't require toxic materials and could be charged in 15mins - then petrol/diesel cars would be gone within a few years.
Beating the energy density and convience of petrol and diesel is going to be very, very hard to do.
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There are some new Lithium Ion Phosphate Glass batteries due to go into production web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311....l
which can be recharged faster than you read this post.
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there is the problem of safety. The latest high density Litium Ion batteries explode violently if punctured or overcharged (e.g. if the battery management fails).
www.valence.com/technology/battery_safety/battery_...o
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Goods vehicles carrying perishable goods have diesel-powered refrigeration units which are left running while the vehicle is unattended. There is no reason why a generator could not be used, but I think there is a question of efficiency/cost.
The big problem with electric cars, after storage is solved, is generating capacity. Various sources have warned recently that we might in future face power cuts doe to lack of generating capacity, and that is without trying to generate enough to power 30 million road vehicles.
Don't hold your breath waiting for electricity to power vehicles in large numbers.
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The problem is the speed of replenishment of power. Let me explain. Even if they develop a new battery that has a 400 mile range at 70mph, its still useless. The car is then disabled while its recharged, and that is never going to be quick as the physics of rapid recharging mean excess heat.
The next generation of car motive power requires the convenicence of our current solution of chains of filling stations with 5 minute replenishment of fuel.
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The next generation of car motive power requires the convenicence of our current solution of chains of filling stations with 5 minute replenishment of fuel.
Standard plug-in battery packs, re-charged at and available from garages.
Your Boggs Snail might require one pack. The Super Oaf, on the other hand, half a dozen.
Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 16/05/2009 at 10:36
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AE
You have fallen into the same trap that I did. The heading is 'storage' - not battery.
The new generation of supercapacitors promises almost instantaneous 'charging' altho the rate will obviouslly be limited by the thickness of the cable:)
There should be no real heat generated in the storage 'unit' since it is not relying on chemical change just electrical field storage.
However whether we last long enough to see it is another matter.
p
Edited by pmh2 on 16/05/2009 at 10:45
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AE
SQThe new generation of supercapacitors promises almost instantaneous 'charging' altho the rate will obviouslly be limited by the thickness of the cable:)
Alas a capacitor (super or otherwise) is also designed to be exhausted at the same rate it is charged, It will get you about 500 yards at max. When it becomes a device that can give out a percentage of its stored power over a longer period of time it becomes a battery.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 16/05/2009 at 14:44
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>>Alas a capacitor (super or otherwise) is also designed to be exhausted at the same rate it is charged<<
When did the basic rules of Q=VC start to incorporate a time element?
p
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When did the basic rules of Q=VC start to incorporate a time element?
About the time you checked your chemistry and your rules of thermal disipation.
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I must be going senile. can you link me something that desribes this?
p
Edited by pmh2 on 17/05/2009 at 17:08
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The physical construction of capacitors suoer or otherwise make them not suitable for longer term (ie 2 or 3 hours) medium current discharge, They handle the heat build up of such applications badly, the chemical make up varying, the tight construction tolerances being altered. They are very good for short term (seconds / minutes) discharge
However - Its the linearity of the discharge rate of the capacitor that makes it not very suitable, the voltage dropping evenly to zero volts. The electro-chemical battery however does not have a linear discharge rate and delivers a fairly steady voltage in the required useable range for much longer.
Supercapacitors will be used to "boost" the output of electro/chemical or other electrical sources during peak discharge requirements.
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For interesting reading see the patent www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090091302
I am not sure about the wording of the last sentence of the first para -"series combination so that a high internal voltage of each capacitor is maintained" . I reckon they have made a mistake! Surely should read 'series combination so that a high terminal voltage of the device is maintained' or something similar.
I fully understood the the isssue of 'linearity' but was previously under the impression that many of the chemical issues had been overcome in the latest generation of superdevices.
Thanks for the education.
p
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The new generation of supercapacitors promises almost instantaneous 'charging'
It doesn't really matter what the rate of charging is, within reason, if you can swap "packs" at a charging station (infortunate choice of words, maybe!).
However whether we last long enough to see it (capacative storage) is another matter.
Hard to say - not long ago, the batteries we have now would have seemed far-fetched, but now they're reality (although ne price needs to drop considerably).
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18x faster lithium-ion recharging (if I read it correctly):
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=73037
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