Hi all, first time poster here so please be kind.
I remember reading a while back on here about scams in supermarket car parks, and i can't find the thread after searching on here. I've recieved a Parking Charge Notice as my vehicle "returned during the 'No Return' period" at the location. The notice is from what appears to be an independent parking services company.
Normally i wouldn't be worried about this, but it has photographic evidence of my car in the form of two pictures clearly showing my car entering and exiting the car park, as well as the date and times.
The "contravention occured on 5/4/2009", and whats adding to my worry is that i've been back to the location a few times since and might be guilty of this each time i've been there! Call it stupid but i don't go searching around car park's each time i visit a restaurant, you just presume you are welcome to come and go as you please!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks a lot.
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You first need to check if there are any notices in the car park with regard to parking (sometimes such notices are deliberately made small) and check out any terms and conditions.
Also have a word with the restaurant management about what they know about any parking restrictions.
Only then will you be able to start wondering if it's a "scam".
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Throw it away and ignore any further correspondence. It may get a bit heavy with threats of taking all your worldy possessions, ignore anything they send to you.
Edited by daveyjp on 22/04/2009 at 12:05
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I was given some excellent advice from DVD a few months ago regarding parking in a B&Q car park for over three hours. It was one of my employees whose wife works at the store from 20.00 until 24.00 and he was photographed in and out taking her to work and picking her up.I refused to give the parking company the name of the driver as a contract is entered into between the operative of the car park and the driver of the vehicle not the owner. good luck and DVD where do you want the "goats do roam" to go to.
C.Q.
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I've just found out from asking a friend that there are indeed notices in the car park that i obviously failed to spot. Does this make any difference?
I would like to send them a threatening letter back for wasting my time.
Does anyone have any advice as to what i should write?
Edited by swift88 on 22/04/2009 at 12:25
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Does anyone have any advice as to what i should write? >>
Forum search brings up a few threads.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=53922
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=65953
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=71115
The advice seems to be:
Either ignore them completely,
or try writing back asking these awkward question
1. On what legal basis was the DVLA database accessed?
2. On what basis do they believe that you as the registered keeper has any contractual obligation with the car park operator?
3. On what basis do they believe that you as the "registered keeper" of the car should reveal who the driver of the car was?
4. On what basis do they believe that their penalty charge will NOT fail, are tehy aware that "a charge is not enforceable if it is an unlawful penalty that bears no relation to the damage caused, and it must not be "disproportionately high" under Schedule 2 paragraph 1(e) to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999)."
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That's a very useful summary/compendium Jbif - I'll keep that, just in case - thanks.
HJ really should start charging 'consultancy' fees for solutions provided here - with the necessary disbursements to co-consultants of course!
Edited by woodbines on 22/04/2009 at 13:29
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Where you using the Restaurant in question or just their car park whilst you went some where else ?
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I was using the Restaurant's (one a well known American donut store, the other an even more well known fast food chain) on both occasions. I don't have any reciepts to prove this, though.
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Being pedantic, well known American donut stores and fast food chain outlets cannot be classed as restaurants...:-)
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I've looked again at the pictures on their website, and you can see that i am driving, although its blurred. I don't imagine it would hold in a court of law anyway. I could say it was my long lost twin? :-)
Edited by swift88 on 22/04/2009 at 12:44
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As I understand it, these companies managing private car parks have precious little on which to base a demand for money. "Penalties" or fines cannot be charged where no offence has been proved in a court of law. "Parking charges" are just that, and if challenged, the management would need to prove (a) that a contract has been entered into (and, as others here have pointed out, such a contract could exist only with the driver at the time) and (b) that the contract was a fair and reasonable one. (Often the parking charge they attempt to levy is extortionately high.)
My approach would be to refuse to nominate the driver (legally you do not have to) and refuse to pay. The worst that could happen would be that you might be taken to court and would be able to challenge the validity and terms of the contract, and, if the court decided a contract had indeed been entered into, you could offer to pay a reasonable amount. Probably the best thing to do is - nothing; there's no point in writing complicated letters that might turn out to be the beginning of a long and stressful correspondence.
It seems most parking management companies do not, as a matter of policy, pursue the matter - it's too much hassle and the outcome is unlikely to be in their favour.
I should add I am not a lawyer and would welcome any comment on the above from any legal people.
Edited by ChrisPeugeot on 22/04/2009 at 12:57
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You can only be "fined" for parking by local authorities and the police.
Any other "parking ticket" issued by a private parking company is merely an invoice demanding money for an alleged breach of contact. In order for the contract to be formed the parking company assume you have read their signage and accept the contract "offered" by the sign. The main difficulty for them is proving that this is the case.
Private parking companies rarely go to court (and when they do the majority do not attend the hearing or the case is thrown out), Excel were in the press recently when they did try court action and lost.
Because the documentation issued by these companies is not much more than a mail scam which demands money, the advice generally given is to ignore the letters they send despite the fact they often get scarier and scarier with their threats.
At some point they often "pass" the case to "debt collection company" which again has no legal powers to obtain money claimed to be owed. Again another set of threatening letters is their only recourse.
The "debt collectors" can usually be just another desk in the private parking company office.
Go to the Pepipoo parking forum here tiny.cc/7Kvn3 and you will see there are 100s of these companies which claim to have some legal right to your money when they in fact do not. By all means post your query there and you will see you are being scammed.
In a lot of instances the private companies will misquote legislation in an attempt to appear to have some legal status to their claim and a number have been reported to Trading Standards and the Police by Pepipoo members.
As always
Mark
Edited by mark on 22/04/2009 at 12:57
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As CQ has pointed out, the fundamental issue here is that any implied contract is with the driver of the car at teh time of the alleged trangression, not the owner. Do the photos allow the driver to be indentified? You are under no legal obligation to dislcose the identity of the driver of the vehicle to the parking company.
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You've got the answer in your post heading. "Parking Scam". This is exactly what it is. Private Parking Companies are simply sending you an invoice. Don't pay it.
There have been some comments made about the contract being with the driver, which would be correct, if there was a contract. Of course they can only find out the identity of the driver if you tell them!
However you don't even need to consider whether there was a contract, because if there were "penalties" under English Contract Law are not permissable. Therefore even if you, or anyone else, had a contract with these people they cannot levy a penalty charge.
Given that the charge for parking is £nil, they have not suffered any loss and therefore cannot claim for damages for trespass (even though they invited you in anyway!).
It is all a big scam. Tell everyone you know about the scam. If, however, you feel minded to pay these "invoices" for a service you have not received, please let me know and I will send you an "invoice" for a huge amount of money too, in the vain hope you will pay it!!!
For more information on all of this, visit www.pepipoo.com. Great site with full information on this, and on proper Council issued tickets (which you should not ignore, as they can obtain Charge Certificates from the Magistrates Court, and send the Bailiffs in - but often the signage is incorrect and no offence has been committed, allowing you to go through the appeals process).
Hope this helps.
Posting, as always, in the hope that it helps.
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OP - the last three posters have provided an excellent serivce in telling you how it is!
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OP - the last three posters ... >>
Hey! What about my post at Wed 22 Apr 09 11:59 ? ;-)
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Crossed with mine - also at 11.59!!
I'd use the original letter for something useful like lighting a bonfire!
Edited by daveyjp on 22/04/2009 at 13:03
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"Hey! What about my post at Wed 22 Apr 09 11:59 ? ;-)"
Your post was excellent. I didn't see it, as I was composing and repeatedly editing my own and it wasn't there when I started!
There! Better now? :-) Much frantic and near-simultaneous posting!
Edited by ChrisPeugeot on 22/04/2009 at 13:13
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I didn't see it, .. .. There! Better now? :-) Much frantic and near-simultaneous posting! >>
:-) Nooooo. But thanks for your praise "Your post was excellent".
But credit is due to you too as you will find that I drew on your [and others'] past posts in the threads linked above
[I was replying to davey when I chided him for missing me out - as I think you know.]
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Thanks everyone for your advice, and thanks a lot to mufc, its only taken me 5mins to find that the company in question is one of the most well known scamsters around.
I wont be paying it, although I'm really tempted to write back with an abusive letter demanding money from them.
Thanks again.
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I suggest you don't write back. However much it may be tempting to let off steam, remember that your aim is to avoid paying anything and also (I would guess) to avoid hassle.
Get on with something more rewarding!
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Yeah i guess you are all right, no point starting correspondance with fraudsters so i will just ignore it.
I am so grateful for the advice of everyone, Thanks a lot for taking the time to help me!
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Sorry for the aside - this isnt the case with the OP BUT....
Supposing the circumstance you did overstay.
Why not send a cheque for £1-00p
Thats fair. You admitted what you did. You've paid for it fair and square at an amount that a reasonable person would charge for an hour or so's stay.
Why would anyone try to evade paying something they actually used? Not paying anything is surely ripping someone off which is just as bad as their extortion scheme? No?
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Yes that is a fair point.
I could be wrong here, but isn't it the case that the supermarket or business that owns the car park employs the independent parking company to monitor their facilities?
If your visiting a store and purchasing from them, adding to their profits, even if you had overstayed the permitted time, why should you be fined? It just seems wrong on all counts.
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You aren't 'fined' - if you were you'd have to pay. The owner of your car has been subject to a "Penalty Charge Notice" - this is not valid or enforceable.
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Well this is from experience:
someone parked my wife's car at a hospital car park and overstayed the 4 hour limit.
"parking ticket" put on windscreen
letter received from a firm of solicitors offering a discount on fine if paid quickly, careful worded letter threatening all sorts
wife replied acknowledging receipt of letter advising if they advised her who the driver was at the time she would pass the letter on. Meanwhile if they contacted her again she would charge them £50 a letter to reply
received another letter acknowledging refusal to name driver, telling wife her car is unwelcome on any of their car parks and may be clamped if spotted again (clamping is illegal in Scotland)
no further correspondence !
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...Why not send a cheque for £1-00p...
Because you are recognising a contract exists between the two of you.
The company is desperate to engage you in correspondence, because you may make some statement it can profit from.
The only safe and sensible suggestion is do not reply.
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im a bit bewildered here,need some help please
man parks on private property ignores the signs that says dont park without owners permission or and doesnt pay the relevant fee
he does neither and when the owner of the land asks a third party to seek recompense everyone says he shouldnt pay
am i reading this right then?
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bellboy, I could put up signs along the pavement in the High St saying "pay me to park here"
but it is not legal to do so
it is not legal to enforce
so don't pay it
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Don't worry about it, I have just taken one of these to its end conclusion. A relative using my car was given a PCN when he was getting change for the machine. The notice, made to look official came to me 8 months later as owner of the car. They wanted £100. I ignored it and the subsequent 2 'final demands'
Next arrived a letter from a debt collectors, ( I suspect owned by the parking company ), wanting £125 or they would take me to court. I Emailed them to suggest they contacted the person who parked the car and also informed them that they could not, under contract law, claim a penalty.
I further letter arrived making more threats, I emailed again telling them not to contact me again. A further letter arrived telling me they were marking the letter 'refused to pay' and ending the matter.
Incidentally, do not sign anything you send, although you do not need to contact them, these people have been known to forge signatures on documents admitting liability.
Have a look on 'pepipoo.com'
Ted
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"im a bit bewildered here,need some help please
man parks on private property ignores the signs that says dont park without owners permission or and doesnt pay the relevant fee
he does neither and when the owner of the land asks a third party to seek recompense everyone says he shouldnt pay
am i reading this right then?"
Nice bit of trolling, bb! ;-)
But to take it seriously for a moment, the issue is the intimidation and deception employed and also the extortionate charges demanded.
I don't think many people would object to paying a reasonable amount.
The best system would be like that use in some supermarket car parks: take a ticket at the barrier on entry, present it at the barrier/booth on exit; if you have a receipt from the shop and you've not over-stayed the allotted time, you get out free. Otherwise you pay a reasonable charge.
The trouble is, the owners of some of these car parks don't think it's worthwhile to do it like that and so it's handed over to technology (cc TV, ANPR etc.) and, to make the investment work financially, as much money as possible is screwed out of the unfortunates who are caught.
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These companies are aware of how little legal status can be attached to their operations and do their best to intimidate those they contact by means of a series of letters which become more and more threatening with each letter in the set.
They usually offer an appeals process which is little more than an opportunity for you to provide a statement or two which may bolster their case if they decide to take you to the small claims court (note that Pepipoo acknowledges that the majority of these companies do not do court because they are aware of how slim their chances are to enforce what is no more than a contractual penalty as penalty clauses within contracts are largely deemed to be illegal).
These companies will often misrepresent legislation which only applies to the Police or Local Authorities in the hope that you will believe they have some legal status and it is not uncommon for them to overstate or misrepresent the "powers" they believe they have.
It is also quite common they they adopt the layout and style of Police or Local Authority tickets in their paperwork in the hope you will be fooled into thinking their "fine" has official backing. This is another reason most will not try to go to court as it is unlikely a judge will look kindly upon their misrepresentation or their efforts to claim that they are backed by RTA parking regulations.
As stated above this is no more than a mail scam and the best advice is to ignore them and their ever more frightening letters. If you want to fight back go to Pepipoo parking forums and you will get advice on how to report them to Trading Standards as it is likely their paperwork is misleading enough to be illegal in itself.
Also bear in mind some of these chancers trawl internet message boards like Pepipoo and CAG looking for posters who provide enough information for them to try to take the matter further. This gives you an idea as to what sort of lowlife tends to operate these companies.
As always
Mark
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...Why not send a cheque for £1-00p...
From Pepipoo -
the defendant can make an offer "Without prejudice save as to costs" offering the amount of the actual breach, which if you overstay an hour @ £1 p/h you make an offer for £1 in full and final settlement.
Now it is important your offer is worded correctly "Without prejudice save as to costs", which in legal terms means your offer is not an admission of guilt, but should the claimant refuse your offer and proceed with court action, the claimant will not only have to obtain judgement in their favour, but also any damages awarded by the DJ will have to be more than the offer you made. So therefore in the unlikely event that this gets to court and the judge finds in favour of the claimant but agrees that the only damages the claimant is entitled to is the £1 for the actual cost of the breach, then you can show the court your "Without prejudice save as to costs" letter and ask that the defendant pay ALL your own costs.
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What would one offer for overstaying on a parking area which is free ie overstaying has not caused any financial loss at all?
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I bet that the OP asking the question over a year ago isn't watching this thread for an answer ;-)
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Hi swift,
there is another website (similar to pepipoo) called "roadsidelawyer.co.uk" which i think you might find interesting reading. Look for the section titled "beating private parking tickets"
good luck.
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Thanks a lot Stan, that looks like a very helpful website.
I'm expecting to recieve a few more of these pieces of junk mail in the post soon, as i have probably and unknowingly infringed their "rules" several times in the past two weeks.
Its my fault really, donuts and fast food arent exactly a great combination, i'll avoid it in future and that way i can save myself from recieving junk mail and not get any fatter :-)
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Why does everyone expect to get free parking on privately owned land? If you've contravened the owner's rules you should expect to have to pay a penalty.
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Ignore it. Contract is with driver, they only know who the registered keeper is and can't prove who driver is. They may threaten but cannot enforce. Next time go to a decent 'restaurant' ;-)
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Because the only reason for parking on this private land is to spend money at the landowner's business.
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But as it's a civil matter the 'penalty' can only be compensation for damages caused by 'trespass', but it's not trespass because you are invited onto the land.
By you overstaying what damage has the car park owner suffered? If it's a pay and display he could possibly claim for the charges you should have paid and nothing more.
It's no different to me walking across someone's garden - as long as I don't break anything they can't sue me.
Edited by daveyjp on 23/04/2009 at 09:31
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@ L'Escargot. "Why does everyone expect to get free parking on privately owned land? If you've contravened the owner's rules you should expect to have to pay a penalty."
There is no charge to park there. The owner of the car park set the fee at £nil. That is why you should expect to get free parking on that piece of private land. Later having a company with no legal interest in the land on which you parked asking you to pay £125 for a little overstay is clearly ridiculous.
No-one is saying don't pay to park, where there is a charge, but it is not reasonable to be asked to pay an illegal penalty; especially where the "penalty" is clearly out of keeping with the damage suffered and is "enforced" by use of threats and intimidation.
Posting, as always, in the hope that it helps.
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I don't see how you can determine what is a reasonable amount to pay if you are not in possession of the costs. And anyway, isn't it up to the landowner to determine what's reasonable, rather than the offender? You can't barter in court (plea bargaining aside, of course!!)
How much does upkeep of the car park cost? Do they provide security? What does the CCTV/barrier system cost to install, maintain and supervise? How much is the land cost? What does it cost to deal with your overstay, including producing the letter and all the follow-up?
And, lastly, the prospect of a high penalty (even if not legally enforceable) would act as a deterrent to some, who bothered to read the signs, rather than a challenge of how to get out of paying it.
I am not at all trying to be holier than thou as I do "all of the above" and luckily haven't been caught yet. Recently had a standard parking fine which I thought was a bit unfair on two counts though, but paid up and moved on...
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And anyway isn't it up to the landowner to determine what's reasonable rather than the offender? >>
Yes - they decided the charge for parking was £free.
How much does upkeep of the car park cost? Do they provide security?
If they didn't have a car park, you couldn't stop and buy their wares. It is factored into the price you pay at the till.
What does it cost to deal with your overstay including producing the letter and all the follow-up?
To the landowner, nothing. They bring these parking companies in, and often take a cut of the profits, but even if not the parking companies do it for free as it is a massive money spinner for them. Not everyone is aware that they cannot charge a penalty and their invoices are unenforceable, and pay up.
To the parking company, usually nothing. They generally pay the debt collectors (the ones who send the threatening letters for them) only on successful recovery of an invoice
And lastly the prospect of a high penalty (even if not legally enforceable) would act as a deterrent to some who bothered to read the signs rather than a challenge of how to get out of paying it.
As stated, no one is saying don't pay to park. However why should you pay a private parking company a penalty (to which they are not entitled) for parking on someone else's property. IF you entered into a contract, it would have been with the landowner. Don't forget it is the parking company who is looking for payment. Payment for what?
None of this relates to the real issue of preventing nuisance parking. If it did, the private parking companies would be out of business - no incorrect parking, no invoices to issue, no revenue. They don't really want to stop the incorrect parking, they simply want to charge for it.
There are many, better, ways to prevent parking on your property than simply invoicing people and threatening them, often illegally (they use terms like Penalty Notice, they quote non existent Acts of Parliament etc etc). A lot of these won't be acceptable to the landowner (shopkeeper) as it deters people from coming to their shops, so they use these scamming private companies as a half way house!!!
Eventually enough people will get wise to the scam, and refuse to shop at outlets where this occurs - for example how do you think Tesco would react if you took a trolley of shopping to the checkout (after having eaten at their canteen before your shop) and said you had to leave so as to avoid overstaying and getting a ticket?
Posting, as always, in the hope that it helps.
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after having eaten at their canteen beforeyour shop
As my local Tesco allows three hours free parking, that would be quite a leisurely eating session in their canteen!
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that would be quite a leisurely eating session in their canteen!
It also makes allowance for the time spent in the toilets after eating in said canteen.
;-)
Posting, as always, in the hope that it helps.
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"How much does upkeep of the car park cost? Do they provide security? What does the CCTV/barrier system cost to install, maintain and supervise? How much is the land cost? What does it cost to deal with your overstay, including producing the letter and all the follow-up?"
All these should be recovered by the landowner from the tenants occupying the restaurants, or they should implement a charging system.
The law states in Civil disputes you can only sue for damages - that's why none of the failure to pays ever get taken to Court. This scam is no different to banks and their charges.
Do you really want a system where anyone can impose fines, on anyone else, at whatever level they please, for any minor transgression of a list of 'rules' they decide is appropriate?
These companies are actually extracting money by deception and threatening behaviour. They could make far more money by clamping people, but that costs money to implement and the restaurant owners know a soon as this happened a few times people wouldn't visit.
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Just park in that lot with a big sign on your car,"Warning Parking Fine Scam Here." Bet they get the message. You have no obligation to pay, send them an invoive for twice the amount for your time they have wasted.
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I'm not that surprised that many people are still bewildered by parking on "private" land. Anybody that falls for this scam has my sympathy and should count themselves lucky that they weren't clamped and forced to pay an even larger extortinate charge.
Possibly a more beneficial use of our collective power would be to campaign for "car clamping" on privately/publically owned land (excluding highways) to be banned.
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