driving round europe
especially france i see more new german than french cars (vw)
and the same or italy (vw)
any comments?
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If you want foreigners to buy our exports then we have to buy something from them.
What imports does the OP think would be patriotic enough for us to buy, if not cars?
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I don't think it's a coincidence that German and Japanese cars are so good. Both nations are very patriotic, they want to be the best, they want to conquer the world. You only have to look back to the 1930s and 1940s.
The Chinese and Koreans are also very patriotic, and they're now up-and-coming manufacturers.
It's because we Brits have lost our sense of national pride and patriotism that our manufacturing industries are in decline.
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Whatever the root causes, the real reason the British car industry died was that it built crap that nobody except the most blinkered patriot wanted to buy. A Montego or a Cavalier? A Rover 800 or a 5 series? Come on.
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nobody except the most blinkered patriot wanted to buy. A Rover 800 or a 5 series? Come on.
Were they the same price?
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When first launched all these cars were very much good cars. Its only as time passes and things improve that they start to look less desirable. In 1987 the Rover 820 was not a half bad car - I know, ive got many 1980s WhatCar mags and all these cars were well thought of in their period.
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In 1987 the Rover820 was not a half bad car - I know ive got many 1980s WhatCar mags and all these cars were well thought of in their period.
By 1987 the damage was done. Why are you not running around in a british built car stu?
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>>Were they the same price?<<
Say in 1987 the BMW 520i was £12600, Rover 820 was £11000 but better equipped by some margin, faster and more economical. A Merc 200 was £14600 and had even less equpiment.
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Rover 800's could be good or awful, if you bought the right one the 2.7 Honda engined car you had a vehicle every bit as good as anything of its time, used they were very good buys, but the blinkered car buying public wouldnt hear of it luckily for me.
Rover's 623 with the Honda engine (is there a common theme here) was a fine vehicle too, every bit as good as anything in its class, i'm still tempted by the ocassional low mileage example.
As for some posters knocking British workers, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, a bad design is a bad design.
Wouldn't matter where you made a Marina or Allegro it would always be junk.
Designers and management share the blame too, more so they were responsible, the chaps making the cars just put together what they were told to.
British workers are as good as any with good leadership, Burnaston and Sunderland (especially the proper Nissans before Renault got involved) turn out vehicles of very high standards.
On a personal note, when collecting vehicles from Burnaston or any Toyota centre, new or used any faults/damage found (very rare indeed, i can't remember the last time) is immediately investigated and the car taken for proper examination, this is not the case with some other makers...this strikes me as good management and good quality control at work, a colleague assures me Honda are similarly obsessed with quality standards...maybe thats part of the reason they are both so well thought of.
As i said before about BL management and unions should have had their heads bashed together daily for gross stupidity that cost others dear (no doubt they did alright out of it, no change there then).
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I remember reading a while back that manufacturers tolerate a certain failure rate from the parts they buy.
Ford/BL etc was something like 56 parts per million.
Toyota............ 2.
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I have an incredibly good reliable Seat Toledo TDiSE which I bought new at the end of 1999. It has done 167,000 miles and goes genuinely like new. I can't afford another car for ages because of the present crisis; but if I was buying new I would buy the new Honda Accord. It is an extremely nice comfortable beautifully made car. I was so impressed when I sat in it at a Colchester showroom a few months ago.
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I remember reading a while back that manufacturers tolerate a certain failure rate from the parts they buy.
I heard a lovely story about electronics in that fashion. Rover years ago ordered a set of circuit boards from a Japanese supplier, specifying n faults per million (10? Can't remember).
Anyway, after much arguing, the Japanese supplier agreed to the specification. When the boards arrived, the 5 'faulty' boards were packaged separately, with a note of what had been done to them to render them inoperative. :-)
It was simply a totally different mindset.
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A Montego or a Cavalier?
Interstingly enough What Car did a group test in the 80s with those two and a Sierra and somthing else... the Monty won.
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l'escarot
As i see it the reason BL died apart from the unions, and poor management.
Was the fact that both the Germans and Japanese, had shiny new factories to make there cars in, both peoples were on there knees, and so the work force had everything to work for.
While at home the victors, only had the ageing factories to build with, we never really recovered from that.
Ironic, that the yanks rebuilt both countries, and are now buying their cars, while there home base car manufacturing base, is dying.
Edited by xtrailman on 13/04/2009 at 14:57
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I think a good way to promote it is to bring in the car scrappage scheme in other countries, however, only offer 75% of the maximum to cars made outside the UK and the full amount to those made in the UK. I think this means you wouldn't incur too much wrath of the EU, and you'd be promoting a greener, cleaner way of transport across the UK and for UK manufacturing to make a bigger move toward that.
Of course such a scheme would not benefit the likes of JLR, but I bet you'd see MINI, Nissan, Honda and Toyota improve...and maybe even move some of their smaller models to the UK for manufacture...
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Please do not insult my intelligence telling me Rover 800s were good cars. They were not. the design was elderly and the build quality was abysmal. I had a series of them with failing electric windows, squeaking trim, hoses that felloff, head gaskets that went and exhausts that rotted after 18 months.
Previously I was driving ford Granadas which never went wrong. Ever.
By the time it was superceded it was 10 years out of date and thoroughly outclassed and still had terrible reliability issues (V6 anyone).
The BMWs I had afterwards were sometimes secondhand and older than teh rover 800s I had from new.. BUT were better built and impeccably releiable. Their electrics never failed.
Any company that launches a car like the Mark1 Allegro is destined to fail.
It's like GM in the US: an outdated and old fashioned product range. Or Chevrolet.
Fuel efficiency? Ignore it.
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>>Please do not insult my intelligence telling me Rover 800s were good cars. They were not. the design was elderly <<
They were - in 1986 when launched. When did you own new ones?
>>had terrible reliability issues <<
Diesels did big miles if looked after and I had a 94 820 Si with 120k on the clock which was a helluva lot more reliable than the Sierra Ghia it replaced.
I worked with these cars everyday in an MG Rover service department and very few had non-service items done. The Honda based 620 had far more problems with electrics and failed ABS was common - and expensive.
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Any company that launches a car like the Mark1 Allegro is destined to fail.
It's like GM in the US: an outdated and old fashioned product range
Or a Viva or Escort... they were no better or worse than the Allegro, the only difference was that they were (slightly) better put together...
Not sure if you were refering to the Allegro with that second comment, but which was more up to date, a small car with rear wheel drive (Escort) or a small one with front wheel drive (Allegro)... I think history has proved which was the dead end, Ford were renound for producing old fashioned products when everyone else had moved on... just look at a Sierra.
If BL had got their build quality right back in the 70s things may well have been very different now... but they didn't.
Edited by b308 on 14/04/2009 at 10:15
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Ford were renound for producing old fashioned products when everyone else had moved on... just look at a Sierra.
IIRC when that came out it was seen as quite radical - or was that just because it looked so different to the last Cortina?
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>> on... just look at a Sierra. IIRC when that came out it was seen as quite radical - or was that just because it looked so different to the last Cortina?
Probably because of the jelly mold shape, mechanicals-wise it certainly wasn't radical... perhaps you were decieved by the advertising hype?! ;)
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Probably because of the jelly mold shape mechanicals-wise it certainly wasn't radical... perhaps you were decieved by the advertising hype?! ;)
It was a mark 4 cortina in a tarty skirt. Nothing more.
Unless it was an XR4x4 or a cossie.
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On that point - saw an immaculate umolested Cosworth today - local car by its plate. Very narrow by today's standards.
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On that point - saw an immaculate umolested Cosworth today - local car by its plate. Very narrow by today's standards.
Funny you should say that I saw similar in the local waitrose carpark on Saturday.
It has a line of drool on it now as i passed.
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I was in the Golf when I saw it but couldn't tempt it into an er..........contest.
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Y'see, if you had been wearing your new cap........
;-)
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It was a mark 4 cortina in a tarty skirt. Nothing more.
Nonsense. It was "Man and machine in perfect harmony".
;-)
Edited by Alanovich on 14/04/2009 at 12:45
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That was the by line for a properly engineered and designed car !
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I take it you mean BMW, PU? Have I got my adverts mixed up here, and if so what was the Sierra's line? I strongly remember something about harmony from its early days.
My Mum was in the market for a brand new car in August 1983 (I was 13) to replace an ageing Triumph 2000, and I was desperate for her to get a Sierra. I was in charge of all research and information gathering for the project, however she ignored my findings (OK, pleadings) and went for a Colt Mirage.
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It was a mark 4 cortina in a tarty skirt. Nothing more.
New front suspension - strut as opposed to wishbones
New rear suspension - semi trailing arm as opposed to live axle
New gearboxes - 5 speed
New fuel systems - nasty VV carbs
new body shell
Just about the only major carry over part from the Cortina was the pinto OHC engine, and for those so equipped, the 4 speed gearbox
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My reference to a MARK ONE Allegro was trying to be subtle.
Obviously too subtle.
The Quartic steering wheel - was a disaster. Not only the wrong shape, it had sharp flashing from the moulding process which cut hands...
Needless to say the Mark 2 had a round wheel.
Next time I'll forget the subtlety.
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Next time I'll forget the subtlety.
It registered, just that Ford and Vauxhall weren't any better in those days...
Edited by b308 on 14/04/2009 at 15:42
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Was the fact that both the Germans and Japanese ... Ironic that the yanks rebuilt both countries and are now buying their cars while there home base car manufacturing base is dying.
Not quite true with regards to German cars, sales of VW have fallen in the US and they make a loss there. The US buys over 50% US brand autos still but the Japanese are now in the number 2 slot overtaking Ford and the Korean's are gaining at a huge rate. VW actually will be building a new factory in the US and developing products for the market to try and compete which they're not able to do at present due to importation costs and european design.
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Having read all the replies to this thread, I have had my eyes opened to the fact that there are not a great deal of British made cars to choose from.
I am actually quite shocked that Fords do not produce any models here? and only one offering fromVauxhall??
If I was 'in the market' to purchase a new car today, I would look at the megane + Golf + CRV + Auris but would most likely arrive home with a new Qashqai but ... I would have to research & research & research the engines and auto-gearboxes used.
Would £2000 from mssrs Brown & Darling influence me? = certainly niet.
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I am actually quite shocked that Fords do not produce any models here? and only one offering from Vauxhall??
I think a lot of regular Brits would also be shocked and disappointed to find this out. After the initial sense of feeling misled by manufactures (and media) who have intentionally allowed the British Ford/Vauxhall myth to continue, they'd still carry on buying Ford and Vauxhall anyway I reckon.
Many people are just comfortable with going along with the majority (or biggest minority!), and with Ford and Vauxhall still the most common sights on the road, this will continue.
Does it matter? I don't think so. Protectionism is fine in theory, but in practice it does far more harm than good. We need to export to really protect British jobs, and why would anyone buy our products if we refuse to buy theirs?
We can't dominate the world as we once did.
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Having read all the replies to this thread I have had my eyes opened to the fact that there are not a great deal of British made cars to choose from. I am actually quite shocked that Fords do not produce any models here? and only one offering fromVauxhall??
Its not quite as bad as it looks and this shows you how globilisation works....
Mini............................Single source made for global (soon to change tho I understand)
Astra 5 door................exported for all europe
civic...........................single european source - exported
crv.............................single european source - exported
auris...........................single european source - exported
avensis.......................single european source - exported
micra..........................single european source - exported
note............................single european source - exported
qashqai.......................single european source - exported
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When we had a British motor industry, I favoured buying British cars EVEN if it meant buying British Leyland - although I was only buying secondhand.
We no longer have a British-owned motor industry and I've become loyal to VW - as far as I know they don't assemble any cars here. Anyway, I'm a fervent supporter of the EU so I'm still being patriotic by buying European.
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"We need to export to really protect British jobs"
And so ... tinyurl.com/d6jyuw
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>>.. and most cars built here will be built by robots, so the scope for botching is seriously limited. <<
This is one of the most incorrect statements regularly made about car factories.
In fact other than welding and spraying all cars in the UK are handbuilt and companies like Toyota are using less and less robots. Robots are dumb, they do not improve things and they do not have ideas. Car companies get much better value out of people than they do robots. Robots tend to be used mainly for the dirty and dangerous stuff.
When a car factory is faced with closure it is also faced with 1000's of redundancies - what do people think these people do - watch robots all day.
Another myth is that all car companies buy stuff in from the same supply chain - if you see the link below it will demonstrate how much stuff Toyota (for example) actually make - this is because they can control the quality. It also shows that cars like the Auris are not single sourced in europe and that they are also made in Japan.
The Corolla my wife drives was manufactured in Japan and I bought from a dealer 20 miles away from Burnaston.
www.toyota.co.jp/en/about_toyota/manufacturing/
I agree that we should buy British mainly because they are some of the best made cars in the world now thanks to Honda, Toyota, BMW etc. But also remember that your BMW 4 cylinder engine will also be made in the UK - there are more ways we can buy British than just looking at the car being built here.
PS - if you think the XF looks good then wait until you see the new XJ - it is awesome. Also IMO if Jaguar continue with their design changes and put it into the X-type I am guessing you will see allot less 3 series and A4's on the road.
Edited by Pendlebury on 14/04/2009 at 15:37
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There again, Toyota also make the robots...
www.toyota.co.jp/en/special/robot/
Might be of interest to more mature Backroomers
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I must say - I prefer ASIMO.
Also whilst I said I agree that we should buy British, let's not be too patriotic. If it wasn't for the Germans, Indians and Japanese (and maybe Chinese with Vauxhall), then we would not have any car making to speak off. We also need to be nice to the europeans because they own all our energy companies and airports (at the moment). You have to remember that we are a service and banking nation - although many of our financial institutions are now owned by the Spanish.
I think we are pretty good at hairdressing, sports sciences and media studies though.
Rule Britannia !
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We also have the best Chavs in the world. Just check out our 10 year old Corsas and compare them to the pathetic drivel abroad. They can't even come close for tacky and pointless body kits and dump valves!
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www.toyota.co.jp/en/about_toyota/manufacturing/
INteresting page that, they make so much stuff in Japan.
Edited by carl_a on 14/04/2009 at 22:50
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Interesting the Japanese make a lot of stuff, the British don't, and that's viewed as a problem for us.
I'm not sure the Japanese economy is exactly the most vibrant in the world, is it?
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Your correct dipstick about the Japanese economy as a whole but when you look at the strategy of Toyota in isolation it clearly pays off, making them the biggest car company in the world. I think you need to fully understand why the Japanese companies do this and it is mainly to do with being able to control quality.
Maybe they need to manufacture cyclinder liners as well - or maybe they do now.
Edited by Pendlebury on 15/04/2009 at 13:31
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