Not if it caused oversteer which was not controllable with her skill level
My thoughts exactly, look at this video:
tinyurl.com/caf2zj
Glad your friend wasn't hurt Rattle.
Dave TD.
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Ok some update still not sure what caused it, but it seems its a combination of speed and new brakes and tyres. The car was serviced last week too.
She will phone the insurance company tomorrow and take it from there, I studied her policy and its all legit.
She was unhurt but unable to get herself out of the car, apparantly passers by stopped and helped her out of the car.
I still feel to blame for this because I knew she had a tendancy to take corners too fast but how could I see too much with me being a NQD and she has been driving for three years?
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There's scope for a whole thread there, Rattle - when to comment on someone else's driving. We all have above-average skills and awareness, remember, so we tend not to take kindly to criticism.
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Are you sure it rolled as in rolled like a barrel? Maybe she meant it tipped onto two wheels and crashed back down and the bang cracked the windscreen.
The airbags wouldn't necessarily deploy in a roll, as they are only supposed to when the front bumper is crushed or a forward decelerative force is measure which exceeds a prescribed limit.
I do agree the worn rear tyres and old rear ones could have been a trigger, but even so, only when combined with a speed to high for the bend/conditions and skill, but a timely warning nonetheless.
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Quote:...""She went against my advice and put the new tyres on the front.""
On a normal car, that's the best place to put them.
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Hasn't the new-tyres-on-the-rear topic been done to death elsewhere? The point is not that you put the new tyres where they can do most good; you put the worn ones where they can do least harm.
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> The point is not that you put the new tyres where they can do most good; you put the worn ones where they can do least harm ..
It seems clear that this happened because the car's handling had changed due to new tyres and brakes - and might there have been any ice around? That may have been the last straw.
But I don't believe the New Tyres on Front or Back question is hugely important, except for drivers who habitually drive near the break point. Does your friend do that, Rattle?
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The point is not that you put the new tyres where they can do most good; you put the >>worn ones where they can do least harm.
WillDeBeest, couldn't agree more, a good way of putting it. About three months ago, I had a lucky escape when the back end of my FWD car broke away on a tight turn on a motorway slip road and I couldn't catch it. The car had worn (but legal) rear tyres and newish fronts.
Fortunately I got away with a 270 degree spin and ended up in the grass with no damage to myself or car, but it could have been much worse (e.g. the following HGV hitting me).
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.... put the new tyres on the front."" On a normal car, that's the best place to put them. >>
Looks like sofa-spud and J1mbo may not have seen all the previous threads on that subject, or they are going against tyre manufacturers' advice.
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I can't see how new brakes could have relevance to this and (no offence to your friend, Rattle), it sounds like she was a bit overconfident on a road she knew well and has now learned from the mistake.
Think about it - if the brakes don't work as well as you'd expect, you instinctively push harder. Had mine changed a couple of years ago, and the first stops took significant effort on the pedal, but after 2-3 hard stops from 20mph on the road outside the garage they were fine.
Tyres - yeah, I can see how this might have contributed as explained in earlier posts in this thread.
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Firstly, glad your friend is ok. The car is a repairable lump of metal!
Regarding the tyres and their positioning. They alone (regardless of what some may try and convince you) are not the cause of the accident.
They may (or may not) have been a contributing factor, but speed, physics, weather conditions and driving standard all play a part.
To blame the tyres and their positions would mean the fitting garage would have some responsibility, and despite all this advice on tyre positioning I have never yet heard of any comeback on a tyre manufacturer or fitting station for such an event.
If it was THAT important the tyre fitting stations would no doubt have a clause on the invoice stating how important the position of them is !
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1. cause of crash - AFAICS, IMO, and all that, the cause is nothing but pure speculation until a proper examination of all evidence has been carried out by an expert.
2. new tyres on rear vs front discussion: views of manufacturers' are available on their websites, and that is a fact.
3. It has been claimed by some backroomers who have their tyres fitted at one particular outlet that the fitters there rigidly follow the "new at rear" philosophy [assuming that the car can have front & rear wheels swapped].
Edited by jbif on 18/02/2009 at 11:37
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jbif, there is no rigid procedure regarding placement of tyres by any tyre manufacturer that I know of!
There is "advice" only.
If in doubt, read their info properly or talk to them !
Michelin (for 1) in writing, state "it is normally recommended........... but not always" and add further "should seek the advice of tyre fitters regarding placement for your requirements"
Now where are the tyre manufacturers "facts" ? I cant find them. Tyre placing alone is NOT the cause of this accident!
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I'm with others who see that driver error will be the largest contributor in an accident such as this. Too fast into corner, start losing it, panic, hit brakes, lose control. Without the huge expense of a full investigation you can't say its purely down to tyres being on the wrong axle or new brakes. They may contribute, but if the appraich speed had been more appropriate for the road and the prevailing conditions the accident may not have happned.
The roads around us are currently very slippy due to the build up of road salt, oil and mud and a damp surface. With four decent tyres on you could easily lose control if you overdid it
Once your friend is better Rattle I suggest a trip to the local IAM group for an accompanied assessment drive - they used to be free. Or find a local driving instructor who is IAM trained and have a two hour lesson on the basics of IAM driving - consider it a mini Pass Plus course.
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Most unlikely that the new tyres being on the front had anything to do with the crash.
Even if the car was only rolled onto its side (and not right over onto its roof) there is a good chance that the main structure has been strained in some way.
Hope yr friend is OK Rattle.
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I was looking at my cousins "slicks" on the front of her Passat last weekend (gave her a good talking to) with her step father.
He asked me "where should the new tyres be fitted?" (he had been on one of these police sessions that you go on instead of getting 3 points and was testing me)
I said the rear because it's easier to control a front wheel skid that a rear wheel one - he agreed that's what they had said on the police course.
MVP
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I said the rear because it's easier to control a front wheel skid that a rear wheel one - he >> agreed that's what they had said on the police course.
That is based on the assumption that the driver is capable of 'controlling a skid'. No one is taught the first thing about that when they are taught to drive, and far too few go on to teach themselves how to do it by deliberately provoking 'skids' in safe, slippery conditions. So nearly all drivers don't know what to do when a car loses adhesion at either end, having had no practice. Or even if they do know, theoretically, the lack of practice means they are likely to respond too slowly and too imprecisely. Speed and accuracy are of the essence in those situations.
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>So nearly all drivers don't know what to do when a car loses adhesion at either end, having had no practice.
Maybe so, Lud. But even an untrained driver will instinctively ease off the power when the front wheels start to skid, and much more often than not that's enough to correct it. A rear-wheel skid is a different - and more dangerous - matter altogether.
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even an untrained driver will instinctively ease off the power when the front wheels start to skid and much more often than not that's enough to correct it.
If they ease off the power (and feed off a whisker of steering) the moment the wheels start to let go they may well get things back under control. However the chances are they won't notice what's happening until long after you or I would have noticed, by which time it may be too late to collect the car.
I am just going by what I see on the roads every day.
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I passed my test in October I have no experience of country roads at all however I do know from the times I have been with her she goes too fast round the bends and I never felt she was entirely in control of the car. I told her this last week and suggested AIM but it was laughed off.
I agree with others that it is probably driver error more than anything.
She hasn;t even contacted the insurance yet and the car is stuck in a compound, I nagged her that she needs to this ASAP but I can't keep mithering her.
Even though I am not directly involved it is extremely stressful trying to have tact and understanding but at the same time making her get this sorted ASAP before it drags on.
I sort of hope the car will be repaired as it would be easiest thing short term, I am not looking for a car, my mate is looking for a car, and now this mate is also looking for a car. As much as love cars and I am starting to find the entire thing extemely stressful.
The last time she bought a car she was going to buy one of them new shape Micras which had a new cam belt fitted, but a quick search on here revealed the engine in question was a chian cam so the trader was just trying to con her.
Edit how can I give her driving advice when I am a new driver myself? I don't have the right, if I had been driving years then I probably would have given her more lecturers about it.
Edited by Rattle on 18/02/2009 at 14:41
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"how can I give her driving advice when I am a new driver myself?"
Lead by example - get yourself a new motor and do some extra training yourself. You say you have no rural experience - one of the Pass Plus lessons is dedicated to just this aspect.
My dad was teaching a new driver rural driving as part of Pass Plus just before Christmas and was hit by a driver who sounds similar to your friend - young female driver, just passed test who had never had any experience of rural driving and was going far to fast for the road and conditions. If dad had been driving a wagon she could well be dead now.
First things to think when on a rural road
"what would happen to me if I met myself coming the other way."
"Can I stop in the length of road I have visible"
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Yeah it is something I plan to do in the future, atm I need to get back driving again and get ued to the city as I do 100% of my drving in these conditions, I realise that may one day chance and I do need rural experience.
My friend has been driving for 3 or 4 years and has a year experience of this country road so it wasn't lack of experience as such I think it was more down to over confidence and maybe a lack of understanding of the consequences.
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Rattle - I've got a mate like this and the only way to deal with it is to back right off and let her make her own mistakes. If you try to help her and save her money she will just dig her heels in.
Far better to let her get into a mess (e.g. by not informing her insurance within the 24 hours that most policies require) and then be a shoulder to cry on when the mess is made worse.
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She has informed the insurance company now anyway (within 24 hours) they are now dealing with it all. Its going to hit her very hard in the pocket.
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My friend has been driving for 3 or 4 years and has a year experience of this country road so it wasn't lack of experience .......
After such a relatively short time driving she has yet to meet up with all possible situations, so she's still in the learning stage. She presumably lacked previous experience of whatever it was she did which resulted in the crash. What she needs to do is analyse the accident, accept that she's not a perfect driver, and try to avoid making the same mistake(s) in the future.
Edited by L'escargot on 19/02/2009 at 06:42
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...I do need rural experience.
Good idea - when I was in your part of the world last October I did the following little amble round and thoroughly enjoyed it (particularly the scenery):
M67 to Mottram
A628 up to Woodhead
Unclassified to Dunford Bridge (there to stop and shake head sadly at the utter waste of a perfectly good 55-year old railway tunnel)
Up past Winscar Reservoir
Pick up B6106 & follow down into Holmfirth
A635 up over Saddleworth, back down through Stalybridge and on into the city.
Given the variety of road conditions I found, I should venture to say that when you're happy with that lot you'll be ready for most things.
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That would be quite hilly and fairly dangerious route, I live on the other side of Manchester so its very flat but very very dense, traffic conditions are basically the same as suburban central London so most my driving is spent in 3rd gear doing 20mph constantly havign to give away to things.
Very different to country roads which require the same amount of concentration but for different reasons.
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That would be quite hilly and fairly dangerious route
Err no. It would be a drive that is probably quite enjoyable. Some of that route I do to get to Wakefield at times. Not dangerous. Why do you think it is dangerous??
When I got a Mazda6 like I have now for a 48 test drive I did some of that route late at night to see if I wanted the sport (Xenons etc). So kept going to M1 then up to M62 and back home. Probably did more than 100 miles test drive that day. Got he Mazda. I would have done the Snake Pass instead to test lights but road works had closed it.
Edited by rtj70 on 20/02/2009 at 22:21
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......... she goes too fast round the bends and I never felt she was entirely in control of the car.
Unfortunately, after you've passed the test, you have to learn from experience. Let's hope she thinks about what she did and learns accordingly. Most new(ish) drivers seem to need to have a few accidents before they realise they're not invincible and that accidents aren't something which only happen to other people.
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