Are these things legal? I asked this once before but didn't get a definitive answer I don't think, but I am sure that I was told once by a copper, a long time ago (!) that lights on the front of cars had to operate in pairs - not legal to have just one sidelight, or headlight or foglight.
Anybody know?
|
lights on the front of cars had to operate in pairs -
without researching it I think it's OK to have one light on if you have a matching pair of headlights on as well.
|
It's a gimmick. The proles just might not realise you have a Merc if it's dark and they can't see the badge.
Or it's a car of any description and one of the foglights has blown.
Class.
|
The active adaptive lights in cars like the Mondeo/S-Max/Insignia sound better to me. They turn to light up the road. How they turn depends on speed and steering input.
I did read about the Mercedes use of the "fog" lights and it sounded more sophisticated than just using a normal fog light. I'd have to dig out the article.
|
They turnto light up the road. How they turn depends on speed and steering input.
What a remarkable piece of technological innovation! How long, do you think, before they make it small enough to fit on motorcycles? ;-)
|
|
|
The GFs Fiat Bravo has them and I thought they were a gimmick. However on dark country roads they can be quite useful. They only work at speeds less than 30 (or might be 20?!) and over certain steering angles. Granted in a town they aren't much help but as I said they can be helpful. Also when driving in Italy in it on dark mountain roads they were particulalry useful.
As for legal the car has the type rating for use on our roads, turning lights et al.
|
|
I wonder how you adapt active lights when driving on the continent. You can be sure there is no simple switch or setting on the cars menus.
|
|
The Bravo ones are the foglights rather than adaptive headlights.
|
|
Hmm. IIRC sixties Cadillacs had them, they ran from the leading edge of the front wing to the front wheel arch and came on with the steering and turn signal. The swivelling headlights on the Citroen DS were best though IMO
|
|
The ones on the Fords are the main light unit that turns.
|
Interesting in an understeer or oversteer moment then?
The light comes on just where you dont need it?
Progress I suppose?
|
The best and simplest implementation was the DS as mentioned above. Worked brilliantly
|
|
|
|
Are these things legal?
If they're factory fitted then they're covered by the car's EU Type Approval. This over-rides UK law.
A fair number of things are technically illegal under UL law - Xenon lights, LED lights, lights that flash under heavy braking etc.
Cornering lights in Merc's are a different lamp unit to the normal foglamp - they have a much wider beam.
|
|
|
|
That's why we have auto sensing lights and wipers as well.
I saw these listed as features in a car a while back, and it made me laugh. How difficult is it to work out whether it is dark and whether it's raining?
|
"How difficult is it to work out whether it is dark"
Very difficult judging by the number of people (I can't say women, can I?) driving without lights in the dark at the moment - saw 3 this evening.
|
I can work out both. But have both as standard. Lights I can sort but variable rain sensing wipers are good IMO. When it's just spitting or intermittent rain they come on when really needed. And pass say a lorry throwing up spray they speed up with both hands still on the wheel.
Auto lights are nice to haves.
|
|
I support rtj, varible rain sensing wipers and autolight are very useful. Speaking for myself from my personal experience.
|
|
I've got adaptive lights on my Pug. The headlights themselves are superb, but the fact they turn around corners doesn't make a great deal of difference.
|
|
I still think adaptive halogen lights are there to make money. HID Xenon lights better... stand back for the flames.
|
|
Pointless stupid things. Should be consigned to the dustbin along with automatic wipers, headlights and electric handbrakes.
Edited by The Melting Snowman on 22/12/2008 at 21:58
|
"Should be consigned to the dustbin along with automatic wipers and headlights."
Along with me I suppose - I find both very useful - but maybe I am also pointless and stupid. I also find cruise control, climate control, ABS, electric windows, auto-chokes, power-steering very useful, not to mention the electric sun-roof, electric seats, heated seats, central locking (how pointless and stupid is that - can't I be bothered to turn a key??). But then I remember my first car - a 1949 Sunbeam Talbot which didn't even have a heater (mind you, it did have a starter button - how modern can you get?), and my Dad's Ford Pop where the wipers didn't work if you accellerated.
Do you get up every morning to make a coal fire before you have hot water and to boil a kettle on and cook breakfast or have "automatic" central heating and hot water? In our house we have "automatic" water supply as well - turn a tap thing and water comes out - marvellous compared to the well my Grandad used to go to.
|
You make a seductive case Phil, but those cornering lights are a bit Ronco - will they be as enduring as the "Inside the Shell Egg Scrambler" I wonder, or the electric backscratcher, footspa, and Breville toasted sandwich maker?
The only thing in their favour is not cluttering up your kitchen cupboards ;-
|
"those cornering lights are a bit Ronco"
Maybe they are Manatee (and, I must confess, I have no experience of them) - if they were that good maybe they would have been copied 50 years ago from the Cit DS. I was really referring to the automatic wipers and lights!
Regards
Phil
|
>>but maybe I am also pointless and stupid.
I'll leave you to make your own mind up on that.
I don't like technology that is complicated and offers minimal if any advantage to the motorist and has the potential to be ruinously expensive when it goes wrong e.g. electric handbrakes. These are all solutions to problems that no-one ever had. Being a cynic I would suggest that these are just ways of the manufacturers screwing more money out of us.
I have run a car which had both automatic wipers and lights and could see no advantage in them. Infact I would even go as far as to say automatic lights are in certain occasions dangerous as they would sometimes be triggered by passing near low overhanging trees. On-coming motorists may interpret the switching on of lights as meaning you're letting them through. Fortunately on my car you could turn the wretched things off.
The auto wipers were just irritating, often coming on when the screen was completely dry and the sensor could never accurately assess the level of dampness on the screen as well as the human eye. On the Focus (like a lot of cars) you have a variable control to alter the intermittent setting and a one-touch facility to operate just one sweep of the wipers if you want. I have found this to be infinitely superior to the auto wipers set-up. On my car the auto wipers packed up as well. Also you may wish to research what a new screen with that sensor built-in may cost you should you get a break...
The day when I can't decide when to put my lights and wipers on is the day I will hand in my licence.
Having said that some technology offers immense benefits at relatively modest cost and this technology I strongly support. ABS and airbags/air curtains are excellent examples of technology that could/does save lives offering big benefits for comparatively modest outlay. In addition ESC/ESP systems also offer significant safety benefits at minimal extra cost on an ABS vehicle.
|
The rain sensor is not part of the screen, it is in the rear view mirror base; certainly on my VW anyway and my previous Range Rover. When the screen was replaced the man simply removed the mirror base and stuck it on the new screen.
|
v8man
I had auto wipers in a Mondeo and now Mazda6. Like you I know the sensor is part of the rear view mirror assembly that is attached to the screen.
I have to admit I like auto lights and wipers (lazy I know) but I'd prefer Xenon HID lights to auto swiveling cornering lights. I seem to recall when choosing the Mazda that the Mondeo IV could be had with these sort of lights but were halogen and not Xenon HID (I can see why from an engineering perspective).
|
There are two big drawbacks to modern "adornments" like cornering lights, automatic handbrakes, wipers, lights etc:
Problem one is lack of familiarity, both for new drivers (those forced to borrow or hire an unfamiliar car) and for drivers of the newer hi-tech car who temporarily change "back" to a different model and, whoops, sorry about the wall, forgot to put the handbrake on!
A second issue is the lack of standardisation: rain and darkness sensors have different degrees of sensitivity. Audi A5 drivers blithely drive along showing their "fairy lights" at the front with no rear lights on. Countless weekend drivers omit to switch their headlights on in fog because (a) they don't know their lights are off and (ii) they don't know how to switch them on. Automatic handbrakes work differently on different models (the Passat has a switchable "hold" option for use in slow moving traffic, with a tiny yellow warning light down by the gear lever; remove your seatbelt when reversing into a parking space and the handbrake locks on.
As if things weren't already bad enough! Some cars have panel lights on all the time so drivers forget to switch (manually controlled!) headlights on. Drivers of older Korean cars are often found to be flashing their wipers or switching their indicators on full speed in the rain.
It's madness !
|
|
I guess we've got the french to blame for a lot of this, for it is often on their cars that these wretched gadgets first appear.
|
Audis with LED daytime lights on all the time because... They are daytime running lights. Nothing to do with sensors.
Edited by rtj70 on 27/12/2008 at 20:53
|
Bilbo,
Sorry to go on about this (see post above - or below if reading "flat") but
1. "lack of familiarity, ..........."
How many of these drivers are there? Most people drive the same car 99.9% of the time. If you are driving a different model it is your duty to sit there (And RTFM if necessary!) and familiarise yourself with the controls before setting off - it ain't that difficult - I do it several times a day. (Has it got an "A" or "Auto" on the lights and/or wiper switch? Do I want to use "auto"? Is the "handbrake electric, foot or hand operated? Even how do I start the engine ! (Key? key and button? No key just a button?)
2. "lack of standardisation........."
is irrelevant because "auto-wipers and lights" overcome that problem - if you forget about lights the car takes care of it.
You also contradict yourself in saying "drivers forget to switch (manually controlled!) headlights on." since this is an argument FOR "modern adornments like (auto) lights etc" which you initially state have " two big drawbacks" - one of which is not forgetting to switch them on.
I don't know, my everyday car is a Berlingo (yes with auto-lights and wipers!) but I get to drive Mercs, Audis, BMs, Jags, Land and Range Rovers, even the odd Maserati or Porsche every day and I love them for all their ""modern "adornments" - they are all fantastically comfortable and so different to the cars I grew up with (yes, I remember well the "sit up and beg" Ford Pop (OPY 407) we once had with 3 gears, no heater and vacuum wipers that only worked when the engine was on overrun! I bet modern cars, for all their complexity break down less often also.
Enjoy your motoring - I do! (apart from the damned M6 where, yet again today we were held up for an hour in a jam - if only our roads had progressed as much as our cars over the last 50 years!)
Regards
Phil
|
I take some of your points MS (though others can, and do, judge better whether I am pointless and stupid!!)
We have had 3 cars with auto wipers (one is 9 years old and we have had no problems with them). Each seems to be able to judge an appropriate speed of wipe for the conditions and is especially useful when conditions change rapidly, for instance when on a wet motorway with little traffic and one comes up behind a truck chucking up a curtain of spray and they automatically switch to the right speed to give best vision.
Auto lights can also aid safety in ensuring that headlights (not just sidelights) come on at dusk and in fog.
As for being unable to switch off the auto function, I would be interested in knowing which car this is because I drive 2 or 3, sometimes 4 different cars a day and all of them have the facility to use auto or manual - use the stalk manually or on auto as you wish (Cits, BMW, M-B, Audi, Ford, Jag, Land and Range Rover that I can think of straight away).
"The day when I can't decide when to put my lights and wipers on is the day I will hand in my licence."
Could you not also say that about auto chokes, auto gearboxes, climate control, automatic signal tuning on the radio, 6 CD changers, cruise control and a myriad other modern devices that make driving so much easier (yes, I mean easier) than in years gone by?
Anyway, each to their own - you probably have the option to avoid all these things in your choice of car - but I have to confess that I like the "all mod cons" cars - and as for heated seats on these cold mornings - lovely!
All I need now is an auto espresso and bacon butty machine!
Regards
Phil
Edited by rtj70 on 27/12/2008 at 23:36
|
"Could you not also say that about auto chokes, auto gearboxes, climate control, automatic signal tuning on the radio, 6 CD changers, cruise control and a myriad other modern devices that make driving so much easier (yes, I mean easier) than in years gone by?"
Yes ;-)
|
You rotten moderator you! I take ages to post a reply and you then destroy my answer in one 3 letter word!!!
Happy New Year rtj!
Next time I will go one better and reply with a 4 letter word!!! - without a smiley!!!
Regards
Phil
|
|
PhilW you're not wrong... where do we stop on auto this/that?
Edited by rtj70 on 27/12/2008 at 23:56
|
Erin Dors's C3 has these lights that come on automatically. When I get the chance I shall find out how to disable them. She regularly uses a long straight road with tall trees and says they flash on and off all the time. The only time I use this car is to go the garage for petrol and I notice they come on as soon as I go under the canopy.
Lord knows what others think she is flashing them for !
Ted
|
Lord knows what others think she is flashing them for !
I have mine disabled as on a previous car so equipped as I had a couple of instances where I think people pulled out in front of me when the lights came on themselves.
It's worse on cars with Xenon / HID lights as they come on with a kind of a "pop" which looks even more like a flash.
Edited by Bill Payer on 28/12/2008 at 00:14
|
|
I also have automatic lights...the front fogs come on with the sidelights. Cool. ;-)
|
|
Some motor-cycles had the lights connected to the handle bars-others to the frame.I always preferred the hanblebar type so that you could see round the corner.
|
Some motor-cycles had the lights connected to the handle bars-others to the frame.I always preferred the hanblebar type so that you could see round the corner.
But that only works at low speed.... at higher speed motorcycles are cornered using countersteering.... ie you push against the inside handlebar!
www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/ (just under 1/2 way down the page)
''It also helps if you push against the inside handlebar. It feels like you push that handlebar downward. (So, this is different from "steering", because you only use the handlebars to lean your motorcycle, and use your handlebars only indirectly to get your motorcycle to ride a corner).
Countersteering
If you ever come across the word "countersteering" (you probably will): this is what it is. Some explanations sound incredibly confusing, but it's simple and clear.''
this does go over a lot of peoples heads, but once you understand the science of it, cornering becomes much smoother, and faster!
|
'auto chokes'
When these were in use kits were available to convert them to manual,a popular mod..
|
|
Countersteering certainly works-with angles of bank-when I rode a m/c there was little grip on the tyres if you banked-unlike nowadays!!
|
Phil W - I take your point, but I still think manufacturers have a long way to go towards the genuinely all-round ergonomic car. Old is always going to clash with new, and I don't mean the Boer War veteran suddenly deciding to go for a spin for the first time in 90 years.
If the C B A pedal layout, and indicators and wiper controls, are just about standardised, why can't other equally important controls be made uniform for once and for all?
One position for the horn, on all cars. One simple headlight system. I favour the now common Mercedes-Ford-Volvo-VW-etc. great-big-rotary-switch, but I think the time has come for a large (red) sign displaying "NO LIGHTS" changing to green "LIGHTS ON" on every single dashboard. That way, the problem of daytime running lights doesn't arise; although if they HAVE to be fitted, why not at least let the rear lights join the game?
If an electronic parking brake is such a good idea, it can easily be fitted in a central position (near the now universal hazard light switch) so that a passenger can reach for it in an emergency.
And one final piece of foolproofing: can anyone explain why ESP and the like (going back to 1980s Audis, ABS too) needs to be switchable? With S*d's law, the one time I'll need ESP it'll most likely be switched off!
|
|
Brilliant on the Skoda - highly amusingly different on my Roomie - no earthly use but since when was putting something pointless on a car a problem ?
|
I just thought that a lot of new, high end cars had only one working foglight. All is now clear!
Watched a BMW driving (backwards) round the carpark at mylocal BP last night. Aha!
|
|
Answering the original question, yes the cornering lights have improved my drive, I can now actually see the nasty pot hole that Mrs P keeps threatening to fill up (with what is what worries me).
|
I agree. This first car I owned (and old Cadillac) had them. I've always been annoyed by cars that didn't. On dark country roads, it's much easier to make turns crisply, without wandering out of the assigned lane, when you can see where you're going. That may be why the bulk of drivers, who have no problem driving like slobs, might not value them. I've added them to a couple of cars, including the Accord I'm now driving. They're much more useful than fog lights, which exist mainly to annoy other drivers.
|
Hi excuse me for sounding stupid but
Someone above mentioned "EU Type Approval. This over-rides UK law."
if EU Type Approval. overides UK Law - whats the point of having our own laws then for car design and operation
my question isnt that there is EU Type Approval, but MORE why do we have a UK Law if its overrided by EU Law
Many Thanks
|
my question isnt that there is EU Type Approval but MORE why do we have a UK Law if its overrided by EU Law
No doubt the EU would prefer that we didn't!
I got "told off" by an elderly gent on the forecourt at Sainsbury's the other day as my "surround lighting" which includes the front fogs, came on as I unlocked the car. He told me it was illegal to use the fogs if visibility is less than 100metres (not correct, there's no specific distance now) but he wouldn't have it that they weren't fog lights when being used for other purposes.
|
Re: Cornering lights: useful for the "absent minded" driver of certain German luxury cars who "forget" to use indicators. At least now the pedestrian has a sporting chance of not getting run down on a corner! They are useful for sinuous country roads - for that reason, front foglights may be used in Spain to augment illumination for bends: a wholly pragmatic piece of legislation for once!
Re: EU Type approval: this does not so much override UK law as BECOME UK law automatically. A study in Germany a couple of years ago revealed that some 65% of laws enacted in that country in one year came directly from the EU and were never debated in the national parliament. (One more argument for the Europhobes, eh?)
An example of how national and EU regulations differ is that items such as cornering lights, reflective jackets, warning triangles, whatever, can be type approved in the whole EU but their actual usage may differ from country to country. e.g. I MAY use my reflective jacket in the UK, but I MUST use it at a breakdown in Spain, France, Italy...
|
Re: EU Type approval: this does not so much override UK law as BECOME UK law automatically. A study in Germany a couple of years ago revealed that some 65% of laws enacted in that country in one year came directly from the EU and were never debated in the national parliament. (One more argument for the Europhobes eh?)
Sadly, this isn't only a habit of the EU -- the UK government has its own domestic equivlaent of no-debate laws.
Primary legislation (i.e. Acts of Parliament) increasingly resemble a sort of skeleton document, with large -- and sometimes crucial -- chunks left to be refined by regulations. Those "regulations" appear as Statutory Instruments (SIs), about 90% of which are passed under the "negative resolution procedure". That means that when the minister tables them they automatically become law unless one or other of the Houses of Parliament votes to chuck them out with 42 days.
This happens less than once a decade, and there are about 3000 SIs per year ... so they are effectively a form of rule by decree. They are all theoretically scrutinised by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, but with the vast majority of SIs the ctte only has time to do cursory check that minister actually has legal power to do what he's going -- there's no time to check whether the SI has being done well, or is even if it's a good idea.
So it seems to me that whatever the merits of the Europhobes wider case, they are on sticky ground here. When Westminster does so much of its own business as legislation-by-decree, why condemn the EU for doing the same thing? And actually, EU directives require the approval of the European Parliament, where the UK has its MEPs. That's more scrutiny than Westminster does of the same sort of thing.
|
|
|
|
