IIRC, it is legal in USA and many other countries.
So, why it's considered bad in UK?
Any vehicle on your right hand lane should always look in the mirror before moving to your lane.
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Because it's a transgression of the expected behaviour, and can lead to crashes (there's a very recent post here somewhere on just such a subject), and you can be "done" for it as well. It's also a bad thing to do generally, which is quite obviously proved by the UK's superior standard of driving[1,2].
[1] Well...
[2] Makes you wince, doesn't it.
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On the m25 round the Western section we have the absurd situation where two "inside" lanes peeling off at the next exit(s) that can and do move faster than the three " outside" lanes going straight on, not "officially" being allowed to undertake.
They do of course, on that m25 section (m3 north to m4) traffic uses any lanes it likes, at any speeds it likes overtaking and undertaking as flows dictate and it all works fine and dandy.
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IIRC it is legal in USA and many other countries. So why it's considered bad in UK?
Are you expected in the USA to drive in the nearside lane unless overtaking in the same way that we are over here? If everybody's lane discipline was what it should be on our roads, the only possible form of undertaking would be the sort of reckless darting in and out of non-existent gaps that you see sometimes. People who do that don't restrict it to undertaking - they seem happy to shoot round either side of the traffic - whatever suits their purpose best.
But because we don't do lane discipline very well, in practice there is another form undertaking that's often possible - that which looks exactly like a perfectly safe, textbook overtake - only in mirror image. Personally I think the vehicle being undertaken in that situation is displaying just as bad a habit as the undertaker.
Any vehicle on your right hand lane should always look in the mirror before moving to your lane.
*Should* being the operative word there. Given that overtaking is permitted an common, but undertaking is not permitted and less common, I expect people are more likely to not bother looking when changing lanes to the left than to the right.
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It's permitted in one specific circumstance.
Highway Code 268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.
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>>Because it's a transgression of the expected behaviour,<<
Good point but the expected behaviour is that once someone has overtaken then they should pull back over.
Unfortunately very few people on our motorways behave as expected and I find myself undertaking regularly by just sitting in the inside land and catching up with middle lane hoggers.
IMO if a police officer sees this happening he should prosecute the person hogging the middle lane for driving without due care.
The discipline and respect for others on our motorways is very poor IMO.
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if a police officer sees this happening he should prosecute the person hogging the middle >> lane for driving without due care.
Couldn't agree more. Middle lane mimsing is the most widespread form of dangerous motorway driving. Being undertaken is a wake-up call; being undertaken twice is a sign of mental deficiency.
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Good point but the expected behaviour is that once someone has overtaken then they should pull back over.
Different use of "expected" methinks. What you describe is the prescribed behaviour, but it's not what I actually expect to happen because I base my expectations on my experiences.
IMO if a police officer sees this happening he should prosecute the person hogging the middle lane for driving without due care.
I agree. I don't know if anyone has ever worked out what proportion of our motorway network is wasted in the form of vast stretches of unused lane 1, but in certian traffic conditions I'm sure it's significant.
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i think that if we allowed undertaking as well as overtaking that after an initial few problems, it would improve people's driving, because they'd have to get used to people coming past from both sides....and who knows, they may even start to use a mirror
the obvious difficulty though is the swerving fool who just keeps aiming for the gaps, probably at speed....now I don't fancy that much on a motorway
best solution though is an almighty clamp down on CLOG...can't see it happening though, which is a pity
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Once, and only once, I followed a police motorcyclist going along in lane 3 of the M4 (probably at about 60 - 65 mph) and he was shoo-ing the CLOGs into lane 1. Made me feel Quite Important for a very brief time... :-)
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OK - I don't know what a CLOG is, (other than an item of footwear)
I'm guessing Centre. Lane. Something. Something.
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you're half way there Humph.....'Owners Group'
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Ah ! I see.
I was struggling to think of an "O" word to put with an anagram of GTi........
;-)
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i think that if we allowed undertaking as well as overtaking that after an initial few problems
The fear of a few initial "problems" is, perhaps unfortunately, probably enough to stop it happening.
the obvious difficulty though is the swerving fool who just keeps aiming for the gaps probably at speed....now I don't fancy that much on a motorway
We already have those though. Maybe changing the rules to allow undertaking might encourage a few more though I suppose. As I suggested elsethread, I think they are a completely different problem to undertaking CLOG.
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I don't know if anyone has ever worked out what proportion of our motorway network is wasted in the form of vast stretches of unused lane 1 but in certian traffic conditions I'm sure it's significant.
I thought this HA video may have the answer, but it will not work today on my computer:
www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/15798.aspx
This 2004 RAC report estimates one third of motorway capacity is wasted at peak periods by lane hogs:
snipurl.com/71444 [www_racfoundation_org]
I have to put up with these selfish ignorant swines twice daily. Last Sunday the matrix signs saying "Keep Left Unless Overtaking" was a welcome sight, but its about 3 months since I last saw that message. It should be the default message when not reporting traffic jams.
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the obvious difficulty though is the swerving fool who just keeps aiming for the gaps probably at speed....now I don't fancy that much on a motorway
From experience, I know this to be a fact.
Undertaking is legal here, and we have the same problems with CLOG, so it is not uncommon to be in the 'fast lane (3)', bowling along in a queue of cars doing 120ish behind Mr-I'm-doing-the-speed-limit-so-i'm-not-movng-out-of-this-lane, and see guys peel off, cross to lane 1, and hammer it, scaring the living bejesus out of the mimsers in lane 2.
The opposite happens, or course. Mr lane 1 is doing 120, and CLOG mimser decides that it is time to turn off, and starts moving to the left, without indicating OR looking.
Earlier this year, when petrol price went ballistic, the CLOG mimsers were even worse - they decided that slowing down would save juice, so you then had, on the N1 outbound, a load of CLOG mimsers now doing 60-70, instead of their normal 80-90.
Mix that with folk who couldn't give a toss about prices, and continued at their normal 120+, and it was a recipe for disaster
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Good point GJD about what is prescribed and expected.
I do agree.
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Legalising undertaking and attacking CLOGing are inconsistent policies.
CLOGing is a danger precisely because undetaking is not permitted. Encourage universal undertaking and the CLOGing problem is resolved.
Far from being dangerous, CLOGers would be advised to stay in lane, not baulk faster drivers who might be about to undertake.
With universal over and undertaking the significance of the different lanes would vanish - they would all be "slow" or "fast", so there would be no virtue in moving over to the left.
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Undertaking is legal here in N.Z. provided that the road is marked in lanes, and doesn't cause any untoward problems. There was a fair bit of discussion when it was first introduced, as the general law is Keep Left as yours. The law makes it the lane-changer's responsibility to keep clear, i.e. if the centre-lane trundler finally does decide to shift left, upon his head be it if he doesn't notice the large SUV howling up on his left.
The law also requires that turn signals be operated for a minimum of three seconds before commencement of the lane-change manoeuvre, but this is honoured more often in the breach rather than obedience.
Don't get the idea that we are lane-discipline angels though !! { Mods may wish to exterminate following war story }. I was third in a queue following a Merc driven by a lady of blue-rinse age, but at sufficient speed nonetheless, in the fast lane, when she suddenly decided to leave the motorway. So she stopped !! There and then, in the fast lane !! Presumably to turn almost a right-angles to traffic flow. To my great fortune, there was a gap on my left into which I was able to do an undertaking run and escape the subsequent utter chaos. I did notice as I passed that she had put on her turn indicator to show how she intended to manoeuvre.
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I sympathise with overtaking on the inside when you get some 60 mph clod blithely hogging the middle lane. The hogger doing 70 in the middle however has been known to justify his action by saying that the limit is 70mph anyway so anyone overtaking is speeding! Is there an answer to that? For the record I try to keep left but find it annoying when the hogger forces you to make for lane 3 to overtake and then have to move right across to lane 1 again.
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I never undertake except when the traffic in the outside lane/s is at a standstill or at a walking pace.
This is not altruism but self-preservation. If the driver in front is too dozy to notice the empty lane to their left what are the chances of them having looked in their left side door mirror this year ?
Doesn't stop me thinking of them as rude idiots though.
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by saying that the limit is 70mph anyway so anyone overtaking is speeding! Is there an answer to that?
Yes, he's not the Police and its their job to stop speeders, not his...
Oh, and two wrongs don't make a right... he's breaking the law as well!!
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Undertaking is just another example of the yobs that now think they rule the roads - if the o/side lane is empty and you want to overtake why not use it? - also when the n/side lane is full of slower traffic and with the traffic that comes onto the road from the left and I am doing 70 in the middle lane I see little reason to keep changing lane - but hey if you get off on this kind of thing, what do I care? - just try not to cause an accident.
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with the miles I have travelled on motorway's the M3 in the rush hour must be the worst for Motorcycles weaving in & out of all the lanes & undertaking on the hardshoulder. The M25 hasn't been too bad but M3 makes my eye's pop out sometimes!. Why do motorcyles give the impression of being excempt from these law's.
I agree with an earlier statement " police should prosecute" about middle laners & 3 rd laners on the M25 doing 50 or 60. N/S lane is usually the quickest!. Towing a caravan I am astounded at how often I get stuck behind middle laners doing 55-60 & not pulling over & the only option being the nearside as its illegal to tow in the outside lane.
Horrified to see how many vehicles towing trailers & boats etc use the outside lane & recentley overtaken down Riegate Hill on the M25 by a European Artic in the outside "4TH"lane doing well in excess of 70!
I Doc
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- also when the n/side lane is full of slower traffic and with the traffic that comes onto the road from the left and I am doing 70 in the middle lane I see little reason to keep changing lane - >>
t&d,
What you are doing in those circumstances is causing a problem and is illegal. You're causing congestion because it leaves the inside lane empty, which other people are not supposed to use to overtake in. Staying in lane 2 unnecessarily is an offence of 'Driving Without Consideration For Other Road Users', S3 Road Traffic Act and contravenes the Highway Code.
If you can pull over to the left, you should do... and if someone slower joins at the next junction, then so be it...that can be addressed then.
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>> - also when the n/side lane is full of slower traffic and with the traffic that comes onto the road from the left and I am doing 70 in the middle lane I see little reason to keep changing lane - >> t&d What you are doing in those circumstances is causing a problem and is illegal. You're causing congestion because it leaves the inside lane empty
He said "when the inside lane is full of slower traffic" . If that is the case, you are entitled to stay in the middle lane and overtake it. The argument is over the case when the inner lane is actually empty.
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He said "when the inside lane is full of slower traffic" . If that is the case you are entitled to stay in the middle lane and overtake it. The argument is over the case when the inner lane is actually empty.
oops...you're right..apologies to t&d....that'll teach me to speed read
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Undertaking is just another example of the yobs that now think they rule the roads
One could say the same about CLOG. Although I suppose in their case it might be absent-mindedness rather than a concious decision to be awkward.
- if the o/side lane is empty and you want to overtake why not use it?
I think it's more the case where the o/side lane isn't empty but the n/side lane is that we're talking about.
- also when the n/side lane is full of slower traffic and with the traffic that comes onto the road from the left and I am doing 70 in the middle lane I see little reason to keep changing lane
It sounds like you're describing a situation where it's not safe to move left. Or if it is then you'd want to be back in the middle lane to overtake something else within a few seconds. In which case I think most people would agree with you.
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