I did this today, never bothered before but since my mum works for the company, I was able to clarify what is and isnt allowed.
I was following a double-decker on a twisting 60 mph stretch and at ever opportunity, the bus driver wound it up to about 62 ish, which according to a friend of my mum who is learning to drive a bus, 12 mph over the limit for a bus on a single-carriaway national limit. BTW my indicated speed was 65 on the speedo and 62 on the sat-nav.
It wasnt so much that id been looking at first when I was following the bus, more that he was braking quite hard into corners and on a very wet road so I started paying more attention.
He also went through a 30 section in a village at atleast 40 odd given the rate he was leaving me behind, but since I would have to break the limit to keep up, I hung back and caught him up later on in the bends.
How dangerous is driving a big bus like that in such conditions? I was told the driver would likely get a slap on the wrist and be reminded of the limits for buses unless he had already been reported or caught before. What are the grip levels like? I know they can lean a fair bit but the tyres never look that grippy to me when im at the bus station!
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'deckers drive quite normally, the usual danger is 'forgetting' that you have extra height when driving on tree-lined roads, past shop awnings, signs etc.
They 'handle' like a single deck bus, which still means they are large vehicles and need care and anticipation to keep safe. Our fleet are governed at 56mph max. but are ok in terms of grip and cornering, breaking and steering, although these levels a relative, 40 foot and 8 tons of bus is never going to 'handle' well.
If it was out of its first flush of youth, then it will have seen a few miles and most likely have heavy brakes and accelerator, not the nicest vehicle to have to make progress with. Maybe the driver was running out of service trying to get to a service point on time. Sometimes the timetable/management don't make that easy!
However, that said, all drivers should abide by the speedlimits, especially pcv drivers.
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>>BTW my indicated speed was 65 on the speedo and 62 on the sat-nav.
Stones? Glass houses?
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Given that this forum advocates adding atleast 10 mph to most speed limits, no glasshouse here, 2 mph isnt the end of the world.
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Given that this forum advocates adding atleast 10 mph to most speed limits
Eh? Where?
Or are you getting mixed up with the extra 10mph that the police "seem" to give on the motorways?
And an extra 10mph on a bendy road, rather than a mororway could be quite dangerous... though I apreciate in this case that you were doing 62 - if the bus hadn't been there would you have been doing 70, then, Stu?! (Bearing in mind the other thread about your missus, I can see where she's got it from! - only joking!! ;-) )
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Well Im pretty sure this one was doing more than 56, I followed it for about 8 miles so it wasnt just a quick blast but sustained. It was an 04 plate so not really old.
It was definately in service, it was full of passengers.
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If there was no accident, who cares?
If he had of gone slower and had a crash it would be all tea and sympathy.
Crackpot British thinking, all back to front?
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Fair point. BUT if the bus was being driven in the same manner full of schoolchildren, particularly if they were your own would you be concerned?
It was maybe empty but it may indicate that is the standard of driving of that particular individual.
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If there was no accident who cares? If he had of gone slower and had a crash it would be all tea and sympathy. Crackpot British thinking all back to front?
No accident THIS time, but if the drivers luck runs out?????
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I was actually in an accident when on a double-decker bus when I was at school - I was sitting behind the stairs and when the bus braked and hit the car infront, I was slammed head first into the partition around the stairs - I got a concussion and was off school for a week. Worth remembering that buses dont have seatbelts.
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Every cloud.... Any long lasting symptoms? ;-)
Edited by Fullchat on 24/11/2008 at 20:10
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a double decker doing more than 45 to 50 is unusual. In my experience as a driver they tend to be far more solid on the road than a single. I used to drive one with leather seats and when in a hurry it was not unheard of to hear the odd tourist slide off the seat to be deposited on the floor. The locals knew to hang on.
Local service driving very often requires 'foot to the floor' to keep something close to time leading to long shifts with no breaks. I hate to admit it but I often did a 13 mile run ( three towns and four villages) in 20 min to make up time. including stops to pick up passengers. not good but better than wroking 10 hours+ without a break
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As a teenager, I rode on a bus from Coventry to Stratford-on-Avon. It was driven so recklessly that it left the ground over a hump-back bridge. I was scared stiff, but too young and timid to report the driver.
A while ago, I was on a 73 in London, driven by someone with very heavy boots. The journey was a nightmare for all the many passengers. The conductor shrugged his shoulders. That one did get reported and the response was immediate: solemn apology and driver to be monitored.
A friend drives airport-parking buses as a retirement hobby. He speaks of "children" being employed as drivers and is appalled by the behaviour of some. He would encourage anyone to report bad bus-driving. It's a difficult job, but when done irresponsibly it is shameful.
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If there was no accident who cares?
Anyone with reason to believe that the absence of an accident was more down to luck than the driver's skill and judgement has reasonable grounds for caring.
I make no comment on this particular case, but in general there is no reason why unsafe driving needs to be allowed to run its course all the way to causing an accident before it is addressed.
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I was following a double-decker on a twisting 60 mph stretch and at ever opportunity the bus driver wound it up to about 62 ish
I'm impressed, I didn't know double deckers were that fast. What engine do these things have?
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I dread having to follow a double decker en route to Bakewell. A hysterical, whining & fuming 30-35mph seems to be their limit.
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Not sure what engine, I will see if my mum can find out the make etc from the fleet number.
I used to go to school on a 70's double-decker that did 45 mph downhill, so it wouldnt suprise me if a 4 year old one can now - my mum said that these buses are quite nippy due to the fact that they can be called upon for motorway routes where the limit is 60.
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I'm impressed I didn't know double deckers were that fast. What engine do these things have?
I would say from 6 to 8 cylinders and from 200-250 bhp
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I would say from 6 to 8 cylinders and from 200-250 bhp
Just looked at the Scania website. 5 cylinder 9 litre and 6 cylinder 12 litre engines available for their buses. From 230hp up to a stonking 470hp.
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I would think the 470hp version would be for long distance tour operating coaches.
Nation express coaches I think tend to use the 340hp versions due to costs despite spending much of their time stopping & starting in traffic or on motorways doing 62mph but not always fully laden with passengers & luggage all the time.
If I'm correct in thinking, the old Bristol VR double deckers (1970's - early 80's) were fitted with 180hp Gardner engines, i once read about someone who owns one for shows etc saying it can reach 58mph (empty) on A34 heading for Winchester.
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My mum has dug out the details on the make and model of bus so hopefully someone in the know can have a stab at what powers it, she will be home around 5:30 with the info.
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Got the details: its a 2004 Dennis Trident with a 75 seater body - anyone know about these then and what powers them?
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Engine is, accoridng to wiki: Cummins C-series Euro II engine (later Cummins ISCe Euro III engine. mean anything to anyone?
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Engine is accoridng to wiki: Cummins C-series Euro II engine (later Cummins ISCe Euro III engine. mean anything to anyone?
According to the Alexander Dennis website the Trident is fitted with engines achieving between 225 and 335hp. Sadly no 470hp option.
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So Stu, what makes you qualified to judge what that driver was doing?
Have you driven that vehicle? Do you know how it handles?
Did an accident happen? Did he lose 'grip' and skid off the road? Have you had any training to drive that type of vehicle?
OK he was braking hard on a wet road ( in your opinion), but he didn't lose it, so maybe, just maybe, he knew what he was doing and the limitations and the abilities of both his vehicle and himself.
I really think someone who doesn't know how to do the job you do, everyday of the week as second nature, should stand behind you and watch, and then complain to your boss that you wasn't doing it properly.
You would be indignant ( rightly so) to say the least.
This post, in a nutshell, is why the vast majority of us all disagree with the 'How's My Driving' stickers on the back of vehicles.
What other job can you tell me, where someone totally unqualified and inexperienced in that job, is invited to complain ( it's never a compliment) on the qualified persons abilitiy to do the job.
All of us with any sort of sign writing on our work vehicles have become sitting ducks for anyone with a mobile phone these days.
Seeing life from a traffic office desk in my past life, I'd like to bet that despite what has been said to you, they will all have a good laugh about your 'interpretation' of what you saw and that'll be the end of it for the driver!
Pat
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Since my mum works for the company and knows the person who deals with this issue, she asked if it was worth reporting - she was told yes, make it official because then they can do something about it.
You know the reason it was suggest it was made official? So they can avoid the driver getting a ticket before he is told to watch his speed or worse loose his license, but instead have enough to bring him in the office, say a member of the public noticed his speed was a bit much and could he be more mindful of it.
Driver turnover is high anyway and they do loose them to speeding offenses and license being lost given the amount if miles they drive.
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I'm siding firmly with stu on this one. Its got nothing to do with ill-informed criticism and everything to do with the noble pursuit of road safety. I have had many an unpleasant bus journey too, the combination of a dangerous driver and the lack of a seatbelt make for a truly miserable experience. The ones who passively accept this sort of treatment are usually to stupid to understand the potential dangers.
Whilst I sympathise with the hard-pressed bus driver trying to keep to a timetable, I find that many must drive aggressively simply to keep themselves amused as the scope for saving time is very small due to urban traffic conditions etc. I am far more inclined to thank a driver that has delivered me safely and comfortably to my destination, as it stands I try to use other forms of transport wherever possible; be it train, car, cycling or walking.
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The vehicle you quote, an '04 reg. Trident, is a very capable bus and quite safe at 60mph. They drive very nicely all round.
As per my previous post, all vehicles should obey the speed limits especially pcv's in service.
However, as has been stated previously, it is not always easy to do on local urban routes, where timetables can be very tight. Running late is very often not as simple as just turning round a few minutes after the timetabled time. Often we will 'become' another route or have to leave a vehicle for another driver and then travel across town to pick up another bus. It is all too easy for a few minutes here and there to totally wreck a schedule.
By and large, bus travel is very safe in the UK. There are both good and bad buses and drivers in service - just like there are good and bad cars and drivers, so I'm told - I don't see many good ones when I'm at the wheel of a bus.
As for the passengers of buses being "...to (sic) stupid to understand the potential dangers." many do not have an option as sadly bus travel is often the preserve of the uncomplaining class.
It is nice when passengers pass the time of day, most do on the non-London routes around here, but sadly, the London routes have very different passengers.
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I don't use buses much, and they have changed a good deal in London since I did. I find the modern long-overhang double deckers comfortable, but they look unwieldy beasts compared to Routemasters which had their front wheels at least at the front corners. The appalling articulated Cairo buses brought in by the execrable Livingstone are in fact comfortable to ride in too, although they get in the way on the road and are pointless and look like the insult to London that they are.
My wife though complains about the way the new generation of single-deckers are driven, with inconsiderate violence she claims. I am afraid the vehicles may be as much at fault as the drivers, but I don't really know.
In reference to the OP, Routemasters and their immediate predecessors were sometimes hustled through curving London streets at remarkably sporting speeds, perhaps not always safe even. But I never saw anything go wrong, and approved on principle.
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I used to work as part of the maintenance team for the company that Stu mentions. Due to the gearing, at 60mph these Dennis Tridents are going full chat. They do handle quite well for a 12 ton vehicle, brakes are responsive and have ABS, and can pull up surprisingly quickly, the hydraulic retarder in the Voith gearbox is also effective. The safety and wellfare of the passengers should be of parramount concern for the driver. It's may be OK for the driver but for anyone on the top deck they might be reaching for the sick bag, as the rolling motion is exagerated there. There are no seat belts on these stage vehicles so an emergency stop at this speed could have consequences.
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Did I mention what company I was talking about? Im sure I didnt, wasnt intending a name and shame.
Thanks for the experts view though, its funny, but Id never given much thought to how different buses drive and handle, I always assumed most werent much cop.
I recall from my school days the rolling motion on what ive come to discover was a 1974 Daimler, model unknown ( someone at school knew and told me recently ).
Whats the bhp and engine size on these Tridents, if indeed you know the company Im talking about ( can only be one of a few in my area anyway )?
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No Stu you did not mention the company name. There is only one company which operates 04 plate Tridents in the Northants area. They have a 6 litre, 6 cylinder Cummins C series engine, I think from memory that the bhp is around 270. Incidentally these engines have a poor high pressure fuel pump design, the drive shaft on the pump is tiny and wear can quickly set in resulting in poor running. Mazda diesels are not the only commonrail engines with problems! To change the pump is a nightmare as it is on the front of the engine (transverse at rear) you get to it from the rear seat area, and it weighs over 60 pounds.
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If ever there was a reason to report excessive speeding on a bus, this is one:-
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=69...7
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Saw a "Royal Mail" van yesterday-labelled "this vehicle is limited to 70 mph".
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