A Rolls-Royce Phantom V or VI limo I drove many years ago would creep against the handbrake and the footbrake.
It had a mechanically operated servo, dependent on road speed.
Brakes were fine on the open road, but the old bus did need careful handling in traffic.
Plenty of stories of three tons of Crewe's finest gently rolling into the back of the car in front.
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With DSG you can't put the handbrake on AND leave it in drive.
That's why I think it is always better to leave the car in neutral while standing in traffic - be it manual, conventional auto or semi-auto etc.
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A very quick Google reveals this on the RoSPA site:
"When stationary in traffic, even for many minutes, it is not necessary to move the gear lever into neutral because the torque converter absorbs the engine's propulsion force but does not transmit it all to the gearbox. No wear is taking place. In fact, more wear will take place if you engage neutral then engage a drive gear when it is possible to move off. Most gearboxes will automatically select first gear when the vehicle becomes stationary."
tinyurl.com/6xrlto
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If you have a DSG then the handbook recommends that you put the car into Neutral if stationary for anything longer than a minute or so.
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Yep, I echo all the DSG posts. This is not a traditional torque converter auto but a dual clutch auto. In drive, remove your foot from the brake pedal starts the DSG box off and it will bring in the clutch for 1st (with the second clutch ready with 2nd gear). If you do this with the handbrake on it will put stress on the DSG box and handbrake cable and in a short while the DSG would disengage itself to stop any more damage being done. Don't know what happens then - maybe limp mode?
Also, be aware that there isn't the instant creep of a normal auto as the clutch has to take up drive, so on a small slope there maybe a small roll back (I have this on the entrance to my garage). Hoever my Skoda has hill assist so on a bigger incline when I release the foot brake the brakes stay on for a secs until I hit the gas and the clutch has engaged. This stops the roll back.
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>"When stationary in traffic, even for many minutes, it is not necessary to move the gear lever into neutral because the torque converter absorbs the engine's propulsion force but does not transmit it all to the gearbox. No wear is taking place.<
Well ROSPA, if that's what you want to believe, you go ahead.
I've had 26 years of autoboxes now and they have all 'crept' to some degree, which is useful when maneouvring, but for that reason I always slip into neutral if stopped for more than a few seconds. Why be in a position where the brakes have to hold the car back?
If you have to actively prevent the vehicle doing something you aren't fully in charge.
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>>Well ROSPA, if that's what you want to believe
The statement as written is quite true.
>>If you have to actively prevent the vehicle doing something you aren't fully in charge.
Whereas this statement doesn't seem to be true at all.
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Well ROSPA if that's what you want to believe you go ahead.
Yes, I would concur with that opinion, strange advice from ROSPA. The torque being applied through the gearbox in my old Merc at standstill when in Drive with my foot on the brake is substantial. I prefer to move the selector into neutral and apply the handbrake, sorry footbrake, when stopped at traffic lights. Interestingly, being an older automatic, you can move the gear selector without having your foot on the brake pedal.
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The torque being applied through the gearbox in my old Merc at standstill when in Drive with my foot on the brake is substantial.
More substantial than the torque being applied when in Drive with all the brakes off and the throttle wide open? Or more substantial than the toque being applied the other way when braking hard from high speed?
I'm might be missing something, but I would have thought the loads experienced by the transmission during hard acceleration or hard braking would be more significant than those experienced when idling against the handbrake.
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More substantial than the torque being applied when in Drive with all the brakes off and the throttle wide open?
I don't know I've not measured it but probably not. Definitely more wasteful though if you are using the engine to generate energy then dissipating all that energy as heat through the torque converter by applying the brakes. Better to save the energy for the proper job of using it to turn the wheels.
Or more substantial than the toque being applied the other way when braking hard from high speed?
It's an old car so I try not to thrash the living daylights out of it at high speed, and braking hard from any speed is for me an emergency manoeuvre, not something to be routinely done.
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I mostly drive manuals but have had autos in the past and always selected neutral when waiting for a significant amount of time. I have an aversion to the engine being under load and trying to creep while I'm holding it with the brakes/handbrake. For me, it's a bit like sitting on a hill in a manual car with the clutch at biting point rather than using the brakes/handbrake - it just sets my teeth on edge. Then again, I'm fairly careful with my fuel and clutches.
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For me it's a bit like sitting on a hill in a manual car with the clutch at biting point rather than using the brakes/handbrake - it just sets my teeth on edge. Then again I'm fairly careful with my fuel and clutches.
But its not like holding a manual on a hill on the clutch. This is the whole point of the OPs question - holding in drive causes no wear.
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I've had 26 years of autoboxes now and they have all 'crept' to some degree
What do you mean 'crept'? Are you saying that if you put the gear lever in Drive, the handbrake on and take your foot off the footbrake, then the car moves? I have less than 26 years of experience of automatics, but none of the ones I've driven have done that.
If the handbrake can comfortably hold the car against idling in Drive, other than gently warming the transmission fluid I'm not sure what the problem would be.
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My own instinct is still neutral.
Never had an auto but used to drive my Dad's occasionally. I still have a very clear recollection, circa 1978, of stopping the car - a 3L Granada - to pick up an aged relative. Applied handbrake then made a conscious decision, after a second or so wavering, to slide the T lever to neutral rather than leave it in drive. The old boy I was picking up struggled with the passenger door and as I leaned across assist my foot caught the accelerator causing the engine to rev markedly. If I'd been in drive I'd almost certainly have overcome the handbrake and caused my boarding passenger a grievious or fatal injury.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 19/11/2008 at 18:07
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Interesting question - I have often wondered what the "correct" answer is. Instinctively, I am a "neutral if likely to be more than a minute" man. This is partly because it seems safer, for the reasons Bromptonaut gives - any automatic with some go is going to overcome a handbrake, unless you really ram it on - , but also because it frees the engine from labouring against the torque converter, and thus sounds nicer. I am ready to be persuaded otherwise, but not by the ROSPA quote above which reads like a confused committee job to me.
Having said all that, my wife clearly does not even countenance getting out of "Drive"; I think she wants to be ready to pull away in the traffic without shame (memories of stalling on a clutch, perhaps).
One would have thought the automatic gearbox manufacturers would have a view. Anyone know what eg Jatco or Aisin-Warner say?
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If I'd been in drive I'd almost certainly have overcome the handbrake and caused my boarding passenger a grievious or fatal injury.
and with that comment you have hit the nail on the head... as someone said earlier your not fully in control whist in drive holding the car against the brakes...
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Last Christmas-New Year vacation I drove a hired Honda Accord 2.4 petrol with automatic (there was also the push buttom knob on top of the gearstick for an alternative gear change). I just used the full automatic the whole time. It was the first time I had driven an automatic properly. Well the traffic got very heavy in certain places. One day when holding it at a traffic light (they say robot in South Africa) my right foot was getting cramp holding it for ages, so on that individual occasion I slipped it in to neutral. If I drive automatic again I will just keep it in drive when stopped. Surely you dazzle the person behind with the bright brake lights? If your foot slips, bang goes the pedestrian!!! I actually loved the honda Accord 2.4 petrol automatic. I do a lot of driving and I always own a manual car.
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All of the autos I've driven have 'crept'.
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All torque converted autos will creep. Cannot comments on automated manuals like the twin clutch DSG.
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Just to add - my understanding is that they all creep by design - it's not a design flaw.
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The DSG does have creep, but only once you take your foot off the brake and the clutch engages. Then you can moderate the rate of progress with the foot brake, but once you come to a complete halt the clutch will disengage.
This is why they can roll back a bit until drive takes up and hence hill control is a handy feature to have on VAG cars with DSG.
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No, I mean they creep with the brakes off - as the designer intended.
In neutral with the handbrake on they don't creep and they don't dissipate unnecessary energy, heat or fuel in trying to move forward against resistance. Even for me, it isn't rocket science.
I'm talking about old-fashioned torque converter automatics, of course. I know nothing about the modern breed of automated transmissions.
I always intend never to get into debates about how to drive automatics and I won't be tempted any further into this one...
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If you have to actively prevent the vehicle doing something you aren't fully in charge.
Actively preventing the vehicle doing something - yes, its called driving.
Isn't that we are doing all the time? E.g.
Preventing the car from rolling down a hill - apply brakes
preventing the car from crashing into objects - turn steering wheel
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i know in the states folk routinely leave the car in drive permanently including when stopped at red lights, mostly they dont bother with hand brakes as many just have a foot parking brake as per mercs here, and they just get held on the normal foot brake
to me though that always seemed dangerous as you only need a small foot slip and creep will take you into the car in front
i drive autos all the time here and always stick it in neutral for anything but the shortest stop at lights, normally held on the footbrake, and easily time it correctly to have it in gear and pulling smoothly when its time to move off, yea its a little wear and tear but best compromise of wear versus risk of foot slipping
i know lots of americans who left foot brake, but i would never do this mainly cos i jump in manuals quiet often and i think its too big a change when you swap between manuals and autos regularly, i know hj recommends but dont agree for vast majority of ordinary standard driver brits
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Thread started on longevity of auto box and whether best to keep in drive or drop in neutral for that purpose.
There was a similar thread recently and while I accept everything the tech boys say, I put my auto into neutral if I'm stuck in traffic because I'd rather do that than hold it on the foot or handbrake. If the traffic's creeping, I'll creep along with it. I just feel more comfortable that way and I've driven autos for quite a while.
If you start to worry about wear and tear on the auto box linkage I think you might go bananas fairly sharpish!
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to me though that always seemed dangerous as you only need a small foot slip and creep will take you into the car in front
I find it rather concerning that so many people have 'slippery feet' - the dangers of a foot slipping apply to any car or situation.
Surely a much more dangerous situation would be a manual car travelling at 50mph approaching aset of traffic lights in 4th gear - your foot 'slips' and you hit the accelerator instead of the brakes...
Personally, I think anyone who can't press the correct pedals (of any car) is a danger and shouldnt be driving.
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Can anyone think of an organization more likely than RoSPA to be very careful about giving advice?
Here are some more.
From
www.2pass.co.uk/auto.htm
"In a automatic car when you stop at lights or at a give way sign do you need to put the car into "park" or "neutral" or put the handbrake on in either of these , or just brake?
From time to time you will stop in traffic. On these occasions you need to make sure that the car is secure. Whether driving a manual or automatic, it's a good idea to use the handbrake to secure the car when you stop for more than a moment. This helps to prevent the car from being shunted forward if hit from behind.
In an automatic it's even more important to use the handbrake; if you are hit from behind the car will try to take off! Stay in drive so that you are ready to move and apply the handbrake firmly.
If waiting a long time, apply the handbrake and then select neutral. This removes the chance of 'creep' if the handbrake is not securely applied.
When parking use the 'park' position as soon as you stop. This locks the transmission."
From
hubpages.com/hub/Howtodriveautomaticvehicles
"It is not necessary to put the car into neutral every time you stop at a junction or traffic light. However, if you are stopping for more than a few minutes then you should put the car into neutral."
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I quite agree Roger.
Some time ago, Aprilia gave this advice, but I havben't been able to find the post via the forum search.
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A, whats happened to Aprilia, haven't heard from him in ages?
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This helps to prevent the car from being shunted forward if hit from behind.
And what is the benefit in this? Far better for the car to move forwards and for the impact to be absorbed in the brakes than in the crumple zones, surely?
Far better for the (driver and passengers of) the car that hits you to decelerate more slowly.
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In conventional autos, I think torque converter acts as an advanced version of viscous coupling.
Then engine is rotating at idle RPM, the fluid doesn't transfer the drive to wheels.
However, if engine RPM shoots up, the transmission fluid will behave like a solid coupling and it will try to rotate the wheels with a greater force. If parking brake is not strong enough, the car will start to move.
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I used to stay in drive for short halts (with the handbrake on) and go into neutral for what were clearly going to become long halts (with the handbrake on and the engine switched off).
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Then engine is rotating at idle RPM the fluid doesn't transfer the drive to wheels.
The few autos I've driven would all creep at a brisk walking pace on a level road once D was engaged.
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Unfortunately as the discussion has shown there are automatics and automatics.
ROSPA, IAM and anyone else giving advice needs to update it asap so auto clutch systems are covered and how they behave varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.
For anyone with DSG the ROSPA advice "Stay in drive so that you are ready to move and apply the handbrake firmly." is wrong.
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The advice is also wrong for CVT automatics, which usually have an automatic clutch rather than a torque convertor (making them more efficient for small engines).
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Slippery Feet - these do affect manuals too. My ex wife was recently rear-ended by a someone who had put alloy effect pedal covers on his car and admitted that sometimes his trainers slipped on them ie: his foot slipped off the brake when he was trying to stop in a slow moving queue.
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"For anyone with DSG the ROSPA advice "Stay in drive so that you are ready to move and apply the handbrake firmly." is wrong."
Therefore, I have reported this to RoSPA, and the comment about CVT boxes.
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The Road Safety Manager (England) of RoSPA, Duncan Vernon, has responded to thank me for the report and confirm that he is reviewing the advice page in consultation with their chief driving examiner. He also confirms that drivers should always follow manufacturer's instructions.
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A friend of mine had a 3 litre Capri auto, after a night out I was following him, he stopped at the lights then stayed there for a couple of sequences of changes. I got out to check to see what the problem was, he was asleep in gear with his foot resting on the brake!
I rarely use neutral with automatic cars, although I do put the handbrake on at traffic lights so as not to blind the people behind with my brake lights.
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Missed this thread first time round, but after having bought my firsy ever auto its proved interesting reading... I have to admit that I've been going into neutral if I arrive at a set of lights which I know will take more than a minute to get back round to my lane... But this is not just due to a force of habit from driving manuals, but also due to my duty of care to other drivers... ie being stuck behind someone in a queue with full high level brakelights blinding you...
Perhaps RoSPA should re look at their advice bearing in mind the now universal use of HL brake lights?
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I slip it in neutral if I arrive at lights just as they turn red - also in traffic that looks like it's stopping for a while --
If I recall correctly didn't MkV11 Jag (The big one before one Morse used) have auto applying brakes when it came to a stop and brakes released on pressing throttle - I had a Haynes for one and it surprised me when I read it. My Zodiac never crept as I had got the engine to run real smooth at a low tickover.
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Now that I have had more than a year with the DSG Touran, and almost a year with an automatic Mazda 6, I can report that I usually knock them both in to neutral when coming to a stop at traffic lights.
The DSG Touran creeps, like a standard automatic.
So I still feel that the "handbrake on, gearlever to neutral" principle is probably the safest way to go whatever kind of gearbox a car has, in order to prevent unwanted movement in unexpected circumstances.
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