On ultra short, stop start work, a diesel is far more fuel efficient than petrol, warming up not requiring fuel enrichment.
The problem seems to be particulate filters. If one of these is fitted it may be safer to take a hit on fuel consumption and buy petrol.
DPf`s seem to have ruined diesels for that sort of work.
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Thanks.....Quite often 6 miles there - stop for a couple hours then return. Three times a week a mile up the road stop for an hour or so then return ( I know we should walk, and sometimes do but not always feasible). Occasionally a decent run at motorway speeds to clear it out a bit but it has to be said I don't tear about and don't hang on to intermediate gears longer than I have to.....a certain satisfaction to be had by seeing the rpm as low as poss. Boy racer, I'm not. I lean towards CVT as it can do what it wants but still allow me to over-ride it if needed and the Cit/Pug has practical advantages too - but is still a van with windows and is a bit bulkier then the Jazz.
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Are modern CVTs an improvement on the those of old. A firend of mine at uni had a Rover Metro (Well 114 SLI) as a Motability car with a CVT. The engine just used to rev itself silly while the car gradually picked up speed. It felt like a badly slipping clutch and I cannot see how that could be efficient. A friends mother also had one in a Volvo 340 and you could hear her coming a mile off, sounded like she was stuck in 1st gear. I fail therefore to see how CVTs encourage low rpm running???
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Will be interested to hear what others say but I understand that the CVT in question is sound and the short run I had in one the other day seemed quiet and relaxed.
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KB, further to your information on short trips. I would go for a manual diesel without a particulate filter.
(Government fuel consumption tests/figures won`t show the full saving to be made on diesel, regarding short stop start work.)
Edited by oilrag on 25/10/2008 at 14:47
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I love these threads - the poor old OP always gets answers at both ends of the spectrum.
Very rarely do I and oilrag agree on car and engine choice, which I think is great - the more experiences shared and views given the better.
Let us know what you finally decide KB.
I'll bet you a Mars Bar oilrag that KB goes petrol CVT and a Jazz.
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Agree with all that Pendlebury.
Mars bar? that sounds a bit rich and luxurious for my tastes...go on then, a virtual one of course ;)
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Thanks....you made me smile. To benefit from an absence of a PF would we be looking at something other than comon rail? or do we need to exclude Tdi as well? (What I'm really saying is - to save me looking, which ones don't have a PF). At the moment you're hunch is right, Pendlebury, the Jazz is finding favour (£1417 off list is a bit of an influence too). I will advise as requested when decision arrived at - but we're not known for hasty decisions (still not sure whether to get one of those new fangled colour TV's).....however if the CVT is chosen it'll need to be ordered whilst there are stocks, due, obviously, to the new model which is discussed elsewhere.
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Sorry KB, don`t know when particulate filters were introduced on the various makes and models.
Edited by oilrag on 25/10/2008 at 16:21
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KB, I see what you say about the walking-distance trips, but I'd try to cut those out completely. I'd also simply lengthen the six-mile trips to, say, ten miles by going the long way round. My temperature gauges suggest that those extra four can make the difference between not-quite warmed-up-and-dried-out to fully baked, and I think the expert consensus is broadly consistent with that.
As to diesel vs petrol, the fuel-price differential seems to have made it a much more finely balanced issue than it used to be, and neither will reward you for persistent short tripping. HJ's FAQ 92 throws quite a lot of cold water on recent diesels and there's some relevant commentary by him here under the Fuel Duel heading:
tinyurl.com/3h4z4n
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For the last 25 years my wife has averaged 1 mile journey lengths in her cars. (she cannot walk far). And about 3,000 miles a year. Cars are always serviced regularly (by me) .
Petrol cars? Exhausts last 18 months, and engines carbon up. After 40k miles, engines were largely worn out.
Diesel cars: exhasts last forevereand no apparent carbonning up over 43k miles over 15 years on 106 diesel.
Yaris diesel averages 6k miles/year - journey length 2 miles. Still A1 after 5 years and 36 k miles.
Brake discs and pads on both types last 5 years tops of course. At best.
Clutches still Ok on both.
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What about glow plugs madf ?
I'm going through such a dilema at the moment. Need something small to do the local running about and for me to use when the weather is really carp and can't use the bike (prefer the wife and kids to use the Volvo in such conditions). Have you had to change glow plugs with such low mileage/usage ? What are the costs involved if so ? I was swinging towards petrol for such a low mileage.
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KB, the Honda Jazz savings are due to the new model coming out, the 1.2 (petrol) manual version seems both more potent, clean, and economical than either of the previous engines.
I wouldn't buy the Jazz CVT unless I needed an automatic (by thinking of a diesel manual, I presume you've been offered a better deal for the auto).
You can't really go by the Govt fuel figures for any type of driving, as the tests are nothing like real driving. They give a gist of what to expect, but some cars have huge discrepancies between the figures and what you get IRL (eg. Toyota Prius, and 'start-stop' BMWs - neither of which get close to the test figures in normal driving).
If your total mileage is low (3-4000 miles/yr), fuel costs are proportionally a smaller piece of the running cost than other more fixed prices (dep., insurance, tax, servicing), so you might do best looking for a slightly unloved model combination that comes with a huge discount (assuming you run cars until they are near valueless - say 6 or 7 yrs).
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Thanks Lygonos....Have been to see the new one in recent days - see other Jazz threads re Co2 and I-shift issues. Fancy an auto. really but the practicality of the Cit/Pug diesel had an appeal but will prob. rule it out as a new purchase (higher deprec. than Jazz I feel + no auto. and possible diesel repair issues which concern me somewhat. The deals on old Jazz are for auto. & man. Most seem to rate the CVT Jazz for reliability, residuals, mpg....do you have reservations yourself?? Good suggestion re unloved. Had considered Getz/Rio but the Jazz is more versatile than most i.e. rear seat folding, inside space, boot size and yet is small enough to park in High Street gaps (3830mm) and slightly taller than most in its class. But will reconsider options. Hope to keep for long term rather than change in year or two. Spoke to local independant garage who specialises in French car repairs. He owns two Hondas but repairs French! Does that tell me something? PS. I seem to gather that Particulate filters are not fitted on all as yet. Berlingo seems not to have one.
Edited by KB. on 26/10/2008 at 00:41
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That is to say the old Berlingo/Partner hasn't got one but the new models do.
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On short trips. Ultra short.
Seven years ago my wife started to work in the community, as a Home Care. At the time she had a Seicento - the smaller engined 900cc version. it was doing a reasonable MPG before switching to ultra short stop start work, but as soon as it had to do about 30 two minute runs a day between houses, in winter, fuel consumption increased dramatically.
We bought a new (now very old school) Punto with the 1.9 indirect injection diesel engine. Fuel consumption was halved.
Since then it has turned in a consistent 53 mpg, year in - year out. Still on original glowplugs, exhaust and so on. Just a new battery. Now at 49,000 miles - runs like new. It must have done hundreds of thousands of cold starts and few hundred yard runs - all with a cold engine.
Sometimes she uses my van, a Punto with the 1.3 common rail Multijet. that turns in around 58mpg. (on a long run, between 64 and 79mpg)
That`s on a cold running stop start regime that few would experience. The sort of test government figures should show IMO rather than one cold start, at California air temperatures.The shock was the extreme fuel consumption of that little petrol engine in the Seicento, when it was constantly cold running. I expect it was running maximum enrichment on the few hundred yards between calls.
Perhaps not relevant to most people, but I thought it may still be of interest,
Regards
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Another diesel manual vote.
But without DPF. I know our partner /berlingo 2.0hdi does not have a dpf although it is the old model (although still available until 2010 I thought?).
Our old V70 2.5 tdi is currently doing 5 mile journeys and is still returning 40mpg (although I did get an mot fail this year on particle emissions because I forgot to take it for a hard run beforehand - ealisly sorted by half an hour of smoke generation)
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Thanks oilrag, that is exactly the sort of running I was thinking about.
The reason I asked about glowplugs was because an old neighbour of mine ran a Citroen ZX turbo diesel and that seemed to eat glow plugs. He would change them every 18 months or when the car started taking ages to start first thing in the morning.
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I think it's one of those "no straight answer" questions really. There is no question that a diesel will suffer less in fuel consumption on short runs than a petrol. For example my Mondeo diesel gets 46 mpg on a long run and 43 in urban use. My petrol Signum gets 38 mpg on longer trips and can fall as low as 32 mpg when dotting about.
The simple answer is, go for a diesel. However, if the car is mainly for short run use then presumably it will not be doing a huge annual mileage so the fuel savings achieved by running a diesel may not be sufficiently offset by other costs.
So my vote is to buy the one you prefer driving. It's probably marginal on cost when it comes down to it.
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If the car is only doing short runs, why worry about mpg *at all*? In this mode of running, fuel costs must pale into insignificance. Far better IMO to look for something that is unfashionable, and buy it cheaply.
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" If the car is only doing short runs, why worry about mpg *at all*? " I did say in the original post..... " More concerned about maintenance issues rather than straight mpg on the short runs. "
In my reply to Lygonos I said it's the practicality of the Jazz that had more appeal than most of the others. My main uncertainty was over possible benefits or otherwise of petrol/diesel on the short runs. However, you have echoed Lygonos's sentiment to buy an unpopular model as cheaply as poss. I'll look again at, say, Kia/Hyundai with a 5yr warranty (no diesel repair bills for min. 5 years) but at the same time I do fancy the ease of the CVT. Not driven an I-shift but not keen if they're not as seamless as CVT or full auto.
Thanks for all the advice - very helpful whilst tossing options about. I would like to see the Hyundai i20 before ordering a Jazz but not out yet.
" Far better IMO to look for something that is unfashionable, and buy it cheaply "..........what might you have suggested - up to 4 metres long and slightly taller than the average to ease access? Thanks.
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My thoughts on the kind of journeys you'll be doing is to go as cheap as you can get the car, assuming you are looking to buy new(ish).
Things like the Daewoo Matiz (yeah yeah it's a Chevrolet, whatever ;) ), Proton Savvy or Hyundai Amica seem like the kind of options I'd be looking at. All small, upright city cars that are literally built for this kind of short-run driving.
If you buy something like a diesel Yaris, you'll be paying at least £8000 for something nearly new. Looking at Motorpoint's website, a 6-month-old Matiz with 5000 miles on the clock can be yours for £3500. Given that, whatever you buy, IMO a modern car subjected to short runs will keep going until the rust bites but you'll be paying out for clutches etc, this sounds like a bargain for me.
These little cars are OK, I've been able to drive one no bother when I found a Clio cramped and Daewoos are generally reliable. At half the price of an equivalent mainstream diesel supermini, you can afford to treat it almost as a disposable car.
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www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=179
Seems HJ agrees with me. I have to say that I was quite impressed by these little cars, and at the kind of prices they are selling for, I am seriously considering sorting one out for my mother when her current Hyundai is retired (which may not be for a while yet -- it's still running like a good'un). I put cars like this down as perfect bus-alternative transport, and for very short runs I really don't see much point in spending any more than you have to, especially when the Matiz is a well-made little car.
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Glow plugs?
On 106 last 6-7 years. I buy cheapies at £8 each and only replace those needed. On a 106 it's a piece of cake.
No problems at all on Yaris except disc corrosion - to be expected. Prior owner lived in Southport so salt spray?
I bought a 3 year old 25k miles Yaris diesel for £6500 two years ago.
Edited by madf on 26/10/2008 at 16:52
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