The singing postman from Norwich has got it right. Honda market share is "lowish" they dont have airfields full of unsold motors, so they have the price (for them) just right.
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This is all very interesting. Are Hondas overpriced? Not if people are prepared to pay for the premium. The only problem is that by doing so you're setting yourself up for a fall if your products don't live up to that premium because people will expect them to be superior to cheaper products. This is why there is so much VW bashing on here. And rightly so if you have the arrogance to charge the extra. I have no ownership experience of Hondas so I bow down to others' greater experience. But I do have experience of VW and they didn't live up to the premium, thus the reason I won't buy them anymore.
VW are very clever because they've somehow managed to get the British public to believe they're a premium brand so people pay over the odds for them. Having lived in Germany, I know that VW is just a German Ford, Opel, etc. Very run of the mill over there. Us Brits, however, are obsessed with snob value and will, therefore, pay the extra they charge. On the other hand, I suspect Honda charge a premium on the back of engineering integrity which statistics seem to bear out. It's the same old story. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
However, £28k (list price) for the most expensive Accord Tourer does seem very expensive to me. I know for a fact I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a Honda.
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akr -- agreed -- and it's also the reason Honda are getting a bit of a kicking with their new Civic.
It's not that it is an especially unreliable car -- it's just that it is average so is taking a pounding in the customer satisfaction surveys.
Nissan suffered the same with the MkIV Primera -- it wasn't a massively unreliable car, certainly not by Stilo or Laguna standards anyway, but it went from being very good to mediocre and the buyers did not like that one bit. Now of course Nissan's reputation has evaporated and they're seen as just another badly-made car.
Quite how VW manages to escape the wrath heaven alone knows.
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it wasn't a massively unreliable carcertainly not by Stilo or Laguna standards anyway
Petrol Stilo, please! The diesel ones are very good.
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If Honda lawnmowers are anything to go by, then their cars must be pretty good :-).
I bought a HR194 back in spring of 1985 and have used it every season since. The oil gets changed every autumn and the only problem has been a duff coil about seven years ago. Last week, I fitted a new blade - the first replacement in 24 seasons mowing. It always starts first tug on the rope. Mine was £315 when I bought it, but the modern equivalent is about £650 - so, like the cars, not cheap!
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VW are very clever because they've somehow managed to get the British public to believe they're a premium brand
Don't people realize that the very name suggests it's people's car?
But I think it is due to the fact people generally align anything German as quality product (Audi/BMW/Merc/Porsche) So VW got this privilege just being German.
Regarding Honda, yes I also do find they are quite overpriced for new Accord and Chinese built Jazz. But at least they do last....
IMO, price can be very misleading - value for money varies widely among individuals.
I don't understand why people buy Ferraris, Astons, Bentleys - their reliability isn't that good and their suitability is questionable in our safety (!) camera infested country.
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>>Boy, what arrogance.<<
I agree
- but he has every right to be.
I read in the Independent (I think) a review where the journalist suggested that Honda made the best cars in the world (especially after the demise of MB - although they seem to have recovered strongly more recently) and I have to agree. I have also seen them described as the thinking man's choice which I also think is true. The people who buy them and according to this post pay over the odds for the privilege understand what they are paying for. The thing with Honda is that they engineer their products far more thoroughly than anyone else. And the attention to detail is astonishing - not necessarily in the things you touch but within the design and manufacture of the stuff that just keeps going and going. Sure they are not perfect but they have a view that the customer is getting value for money and I believe that is true. They have slipped up on diesel versions of the Civic but other than that their cars are bullet proof and will go on for ever. If there is a problem then they look after the customer - sometimes 5 years after the car was made (remember the Accord autoboxes). This is the same with all their products. Walk into any hire shop and the stuff they hire out to Joe Public for use and abuse is always Honda - because they know they need little looking after.
If you look at the Jazz as well it dispels the myth that the Japs are just good at copying.
Anyone that thinks they will go out of business because of their high prices is the type of person that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing - unlike Honda owners. Each to their own at the end of the day but below are another couple of quotes from motoring journalists - as HJ said - he never has to argue anyone into a Jazz - they sell themselves.
"A touch of safety ? and other things: Expensive gadgets were slipped to reviewers of the Honda Accord. But, a few quibbles aside, the new model can easily sell itself."
"If you want to spend the rest of your life with one car, try the Honda Accord Type S, says Michael Booth"
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Honda 'real life' residuals are always very good,real cost of ownership is low,sure you can buy a Vauxhall or Fiat cheaper,but really why would you?
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Honda 'real life' residuals are always very good real cost of ownership is low sure you can buy a Vauxhall or Fiat cheaper but really why would you?
Because Joe Public is thinking about how much cash he has to lay out there and then, not how much he will get back in 3 years, even more important if finance is being chosen.
On the subject of finance I dont recall seeing Honda offering 0% offers etc which can be a big influence to some buyers
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It is available if you ask - it's just not widely advertised.
I have had a number of pestering phone calls recently from Honda UK because I ordered an Accord brochure on line. They never offered me anything on the phone but made it clear that if I visited my dealer, deals on cars and finance were there to be had.
They also did 0% on the outgoing Civic and I negotiated this on the Accord I bought at the time. At the end of the day they have a level of funds to let go at 0% and if they sell a car I don't suppose they mind if it is an Accord or a Civic.
They are currently doing 1.9% on the outgoing Jazz. I would be surprised if you could not negotiate it on an alternative model.
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>>The Toyota dealers in my area wer notorious for years for not haggling and never had any 0% offers. That has all changed in the past 6 months or so. Likewise the local VW dealership so expect Honda will have to learn to compete or simply go bust.<<
To know if that is really true you need to understand the business model that the car firm is operating. Just going for the biggest market share does not necessarily make you the most profitable. That was Ford's model for a long time and look where it got them. Even Ford have now realised that if you make a car people like and is of good quality then you don't have to discount it so heavily to make it sell - even in these hard times - look at the Mondeo and Focus now. They are not being discounted anything like they used to be.
I believe that Toyota have been going for market share and their business model is based on doing a 0% special edition from day 1 at the moment. Also I believe they have allot of spare capacity in Burnaston at the moment, mainly driven by a huge reduction in orders from Germany.
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"And in the States they're a top-three manufacturer, and you still don't hear of horror stories."
tinyurl.com/3gl98o
Sorry for getting out the pin, just too tempting
;);)
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sq
Actually you've hit on why Lexus became popular in the USA, while doing the first recall they did it so well, it gained them huge sales and popularity. Recalls are not a bad thing, they can turn into marketing opportunities.
Edited by Pugugly on 17/09/2008 at 23:47
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tinyurl.com/3gl98o Sorry for getting out the pin just too tempting
It's a recall. Get these all the time with any car -- look at the other thread.
Note that the report doesn't mention that this has happened to any car -- only that it might. Indeed if you check their link, no Hondas have been reported as having caught fire as a result of this fault. Good response by Honda it would seem.
Edited by jase1 on 18/09/2008 at 02:33
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I've been following these postings with interest ...
I just wonder if the Honda "bubble" has now burst. Have customers finally rumbled that the firm's products are overpriced ?
I ask, because according to the latest SMMT sales figures Honda's sales between January and August inclusive declined by 10.36 per cent.
In August alone, Honda's sales slumped by 31.54 per cent.
These figures for Honda were a far larger decline than those posted for the volume firms Ford and Vauxhall.
Ford were down by 2.52 per cent (Jan-Aug inc) and 5.14 per cent (Aug alone). Vauxhall declined by 4.44 and 19.71 per cent respectively.
Even Fiat is doing well in these tricky times. Its sales fell by only 0.83 per cent (Jan-Aug inc) and by 3.72 per cent in August.
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Dont confuse registrations with sales.
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Rang a Honda dealer today to ask when they would have a new Jazz in, spoke with a receptionist and could not get her off the phone in the end. Got the hard sell and this was not even to a salesperson because she kept trying to get my number so one could ring me.
Have to admit they sounded desperate, if you can tell via a phone call, which surprised me as I suspected they wouuld have a core of current Jazz owners ready to exchange come end of October.
Was annoyed, when looking for their number on the Honda site, that the dealer numbers are now 0871 - had to go to 'Say No to 0870' to find the local non-premium number.
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This is a similar experience to the one I had - but saying that it seems to be with whatever you want to buy currently. People are just not spending.
Where I do think Honda have made a mistake is in pricing the Accord in the way they have. They pushed the prices up with the last model and I think they got away with it because it was a very good car and the diesel engine was so much more refined than most others, but the pricing was just under the so called premium bunch. I sat in an estate version in the dealers today and I thought the quality was superb inside and out. But it was £25K which is too much. I think an engineer would look at it and think yes this is probably worth £25K but Joe public will just beat a path to the MB or BMW dealer.
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I think the same about the CRV - when the top model cost about 19K and the rest were about 17K upwards it was a reasonablish (OK, I just created that word) buy. Now, with the bottom spec of the latest model costing 20Kish and the top model being about 25Kish it is just too much.
I recall when the new Accord model came out a few years back there was much talk about Honda marketing themselves as a premium brand - a bit like Toyota tried with the Avensis - but it just has not worked.
I have seen numerous 6 month and 12 month old Ghia Mondeos for sale in dealers for 11Kish and if you were going to buy an Accord for 25K you would be nuts when you could get the Mondeo for half that sum. Likewise, as you say, if you do want to spend 25K you are going to go for a BMW or a Merc which, at least, looks classier in this snob-obsessed country of ours.
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I think the same about the CRV -
I know it's the same for many manufacturers, but the US pricing for Honda's makes ours look insane. CRV is basically the same (looks the same, at least) and lists from $21K. Or you can lease one for $249/mth after $2999 deposit. Bonkers.
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I know it's the same for many manufacturers but the US pricing for Honda's makes ours look insane. CRV is basically the same (looks the same at least) and lists from $21K. Or you can lease one for $249/mth after $2999 deposit. Bonkers.
The US version is very basic though. They complain about the great spec we get here but then they can't believe how much we have to pay.
I bought a new diesel one last year and compared it to the three others in the same price bracket in my short list, the CR-V was far better.
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The US version is very basic though.
I think the top of the range one is $25K.
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It depends what you compare it with. An Accord diesel, compared to a Mondeo....well, of course Ford sells a much cheaper alternative. It will have a much lower spec and a less powerful engine. If you want a Mondeo with the same spec and power there is a few hundred quid difference. Discounts available on the Ford will bring the list price down but you will get it back and more when you sell.
Compare the Accord to an Audi or BMW and it starts to look a bargain.
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I think the top of the range one is $25K.
Even on that one they don't get lots of things we do.
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Even on that one they don't get lots of things we do.
Like what? Sunroof, leather and even metallic paint are all standard on the $25K US version.
In fact the only option is to choose the Navigation version.
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Like what? Sunroof leather and even metallic paint are all standard on the $25K US
Headlight washers, powerfold mirrors, indicators in the mirrors. They also covet our diesel engines and stick shift but they don't get that choice on many cars over there anyway.
I agree not something most people would be worried about but our buddies on the other side of the pond would love them.
Check out the price of a Jag in the US and compare it to what we pay, it's the norm for them to pay far less.
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What I'd like to know is: when I can buy an 08 reg Vectra for £6399 at my local car supermarket, what do I actually get if I spend 3 or 4 times as much on say, an Accord? I'm fascinated by this. No doubt the answer "better build quality and engineering", but what does this actually mean for the man in the street? I don't see Vectras broken down everywhere and I see it's rated in HJs top 10 cars. I also know several owners who are completely satisfied. I've personally run several Vauxhall's in the past and have found them perfectly functional. So what are the real differences that are not visible to myself and is it worth spending the extra (which I'm quite happy to consider if there's a real benefit, over say 5 or 6 years ownership) At those prices, the Vectra would seem to win hands down on cost. Are there any automotive quality engineers out there who can enlighten me? I'm not interested in the quality of plastics on the door handles, by the way, but more fundamental, engineering issues.
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Someone once said to me that if you didn't turn and look at your car and smile to yourself as you were walking away from it you didn't have the right car.
I don't see many Vectra owners doing that. I had a Vectra once, I know I didn't. Not that there was anything wrong with it, I got 50mpg, it was comfortable but just so very, very boring.
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Fair point, but I'm not into modern cars in that way, unless it was maybe a 911 or something specialist! A car to me just has to do a job, lug me and the family about, be reasonable on cost and moreover, not let me down or give me grief and hassle! Sounds like the Vectra in your tenure was exactly that. I would add that I'm not in the least looking to change at the moment, being quite happy with a 5 year old Octavia!
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Vectra does a job in the same way that Tesco basic cooking oil does compared to say,cold pressed extra quality virgin olive oil from a south facing slope in Tuscany does.Nothing wrong with that,for many people the most important thing is the initial price,not the overall value.You either appreciate the difference and are prepared to pay for it or not,the choice is yours.
For me with Honda its the quality of the components compared to perhaps Vectra,if for instance a Vtec engine cost 5k the Vectra engine is 'worth' about 1k,they do a similar job and for a lot of people that is enough,for Honda the engineers want it to do more.
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As a Honda owner who has had a ?varied? experience, I?m on the fence on this one.
My car has done about 75k miles in a little over 2.5 years from new. It still drives very well, the interior has held up nicely, with the exception of the front door trims rattling.
Since new it has been off the road for a total of 8 weeks plus routine servicing. It has left me stranded three or four times, and I have had repeated problems with the dealer network.
Mechanically, all is pretty sound, better than any other car I?ve had at this mileage, but it?s not perfect. There is some gearbox shunt and some feedback through the steering from the drivechain ? suspect engine mounts, but I?ll let you know after it?s been looked at in a couple of weeks. The grearbox is also not perfect ? third is not as silky to engage, and occasionally doesn?t want to go in, but nothing too serious. There?s a creak from the rear suspension bushings, present from pretty much new and nothing to worry about I don?t think, but other than that all good. The steering is still tight, the dampers are still fine, and the whole car still feels taught.
So, is it worth the money. Well, at the spec I bought it in, it was the same list price as an equivalent Ford, and was £30 a month cheaper. Ford have their own share of problems, but I have been unlucky enough to get a lemon. More annoying is the fact that the car is far thirstier than expected, something that is costing me about £600 a year in extra fuel.
Overpriced? I paid £19k for an exec tourer, so not for me. Would I pay £25k? Probably not. Is the engineering as good as I hoped? No, but I think I?ve been unlucky.
Edited by Gordon M on 19/09/2008 at 11:49
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Isn't this just a variation on Mr Tesco selling a 40 gazillion inch flat telly for 200 quid and Sony selling a 40 gazillion inch flat telly for 1000 quid when it's all just Eastenders anyway, and a 14 inch crt for a tenner will do the job just as well?
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Of course it is. It all depends on your priorities.
Edited by andyfr on 19/09/2008 at 11:25
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Headlight washers powerfold mirrors indicators in the mirrors. They also covet our diesel >> engines and stick shift but they don't get that choice on many cars over there anyway.
All US CRVs have powerfold mirrors with indicators. No headlight washers though - they must be gutted!
I'd forgotten about auto being standard there - £1100 extra here. Imagine a US owner being asked to pay $2000 extra for an auto.
I've driven an FRV diesel manual and it was horrible - like driving a truck with constant gear changing through the 6 speed box. There's just altogether too much activity for a relaxing drive. Auto versions of such vehicles are efforless in comparison.
Edited by Bill Payer on 19/09/2008 at 16:37
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Whenever I go to the US I hire an auto, usually a compact 4x4, and they are tremendous fun to drive and very very very relaxing.
The changes in UK VED now makes driving an auto an increasingly more expensive experience so all us Brit have to drive manuals - no wonder there is so much road rage and stress in the UK. Stress is a real killer.
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All US CRVs have powerfold mirrors with indicators.
Okay, just checked for this years model. Powerfold mirrors are standard (they weren't in 2007 which is when I was more active on their forum) but no indicators in them.
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$25k for a crv with a auto box sounds good to me.
Americans must be doing cartwheels though about missing out on headlamp washers.
And the loss of indicators in the doormirrors well, thats nearly a tell them to stick it omission.
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$25k for a crv with a auto box sounds good to me. Americans must be doing cartwheels though about missing out on headlamp washers. And the loss of indicators in the doormirrors well thats nearly a tell them to stick it omission.
Well believe it or not most of the posters on the forum were really annoyed about the missing features.
To be fair though, all manufacturers have different specs and pricing for the US and UK markets.
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Well believe it or not most of the posters on the forum were really annoyed about the missing features.
I was looking at an Australian forum for early information about the new Jazz (Fit there) and they're gutted that it doesn't have indicators on the mirrors - they're in the wings instead (unlike the US CRV, which simply doesn't have side indicators at all).
Bizzarely, the UK new Jazz does have the indicators in the mirrors - seems especially wierd that a Japanese company like Honda would bother making different wings and mirrors for different markets.
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Going back to honda pricing i thought the accord tourer was quite alot of money when i was in the market for a estate in may.
Went back to to the honda garage a couple of times but just could not get to like the rear of the car.Unlike some people i have to like the looks of a car before i will part with money and it just didn't do it for me,bought a 2t avant in the end.
Saying about the looks though i'm not extra struck on the civic,i would rather have a auris which is a bit dull.
Crumblies still seem to like civics though my retired neighbour bought one last year to replace her rover.
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Can anyone tell me what the build quality problems with the Civic and the problems with the Civic diesel are?
From other websites it is clear that there were a few issues early on and the vociferous minority keep dragging them up but basically this is a very good and reliable car - maybe a tad expensive but better equipped than most.
The Honda 2.2 diesel is one of the best oil burners out there, certainly one of the smoothest and quietest. Since it was run in mine has done 52-54 mpg without me trying to drive economically.
happy to trust Honda with more of my wedge but certainly not Toyota, despite what an earlier poster said.
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