Having recently got my first company car, I've given my Astra Estate to my wife. It is a year 2001 1.7 diesel model, with a high 176k miles. I had been using it for a daily 75 mile motorway commute for six years.
Unfortunately, two weeks ago, the car spun at a roundabout, hit the kerb, then demolished a metal gate and fence. No one was injured.
The car was recovered to our house. To me the damage looked fixable.
Last Friday, the insurance company declared it a 'Cat C' write off.
We asked for it back, and it was delivered back on Tuesday this week.
So far, I've fitted a new radiator and headlight (which has been aligned), and a new bumper bar (the metal bar which fits behind the bumper). I've secured the original plastic bumper in place, but have a new painted one on order. I've also replaced three tyres.
Outstanding issues are to fit the new bumper, get the tracking checked, get a new MOT, and get a Vehicle identity check. (The car only has third party insurance until it passes an MOT). It also had a minor scratch in one of the doors, which my wife will get fixed with a 'Dentmaster' type company.
Total costs, including the MOT and VIC, but excluding the door scratch look to be £480.
It is now in use again, 3 days after being delivered back. I will probably have spent about 2 days sorting it out, most of which has been chasing around for parts, not working on the car.
The insurance company valued it at £1600, and after subtracting the £350 excess and £320 'salvage value', we expect to receive £970.
Do insurance companies write off cars too readily? Does the offer of a hire car while the car is being repaired mean that repairs are too expensive? Any comments?
Edited by astrabob on 30/08/2008 at 00:26
|
If cost of repair + replacement car hire [if applicable] > market value of car, then it is a write off by insurance companies.
Did you fit the radiators etc. yourself or get it done by someone else? If it was done by insurer's approved garage definitely would have cost much more.
Insurers aim is to earn money not to fix your motor. To mitigate their loss, they are often very quick to declare a car as write off etc.
|
|
Have you had the body/chassis checked to see if its still straight? If it demolshed a metal gate and fence it could have twisted things which might not be visible to the normal "man in the street" like us....
|
|
This was one of my concerns. However, the impact was taken by the bumper and radiator. I have had the 'tracking' checked, and the car steers correctly. It will go for an MOT next week!
|
|
|
|
>>Do insurance companies write off cars too readily? Any comments?<<
Your insurance co. has simply (for them) taken the cheapest option, to repay you what they consider the market value of your intact car. In turn you have taken your cheapest option, to fix it yourself without (in effect) claiming from them. Everyone should be fairly happy.
Unfortunately insurance cos. have to estimate using professional commercial costs - they wouldn't get far trying to do anything using cowboys on the cheap, for example.
|
My friend's Scenic got written off after they somersaulted on the autoroute and rolled it several times.
However the ins company advised them that the car was written off as the quote to put it right was £26000! For a £15000 car!
I assume they must have had some assessor take a note of every part required and costed it at dealer prices!!
Edited by BobbyG on 30/08/2008 at 13:16
|
|
Lots of insurance companies offer a 3 yr warranty on the repair work. One of the many reasons why the bill is often so high.
|
|
|
the quote to put it right was £26000! For a £15000 car!
Makes sense. Cost of a car produced on the assembly line is less than the cost of the sum of the parts bought separately.
I seem to remember reading some years ago that in some markets it was economic to import a brand new car and then strip it to sell its parts.
|
This is why the salvage market is so vibrant.
Some guy claimes for a mondeo with a replacement value of £2.5k and the insurers are quoted that or more to fix it using main dealer sourced parts and main dealer labour rates.
In the meantime the insurance co may have to fork out for a hire car and other costs depending on the policy or, if it's a 3rd party claim they may also have to look after the non fault driver with a car whilst it's being repaired.
Writing off the car means that, provided the deal is accepted, the insurers can issue a cheque and have done with the problem. In addition the insurer can also deduct the salvage value from the claim, something they can't do if it's repaired.
If the owner doesn't want the salvage then they can sell it on to a salvage yard, or ask the insurer to take the car away.
The car is then fixed for a fraction of the original quote and put on the road or sold via a forecourt.
The OP hasn't factored his time into the equation. Had he done this then his labour could be looking at a good £400 for two days workshop time, even if he did have to spend time sourcing parts.
That said, quite often these cars find themselves in garages where they get worked on in slack times, and spares can come cheap or free in the shape of cars that are beyond economic repair for other reasons
Edited by Hugo {P} on 30/08/2008 at 20:22
|
Before an insurance co declares a car a 'write-off', they will have it inspected by and engineering firm such as Lesley Reeson Assessors or Sydney Hoopers.
These firms will take into consideration the seriousness of the damage (can the car be safely repaired) and the cost of any safe repair compaired with the current market pre-accident value of the vehicle (effected by mileage and general condition etc.)
Most insurance companies allow upto 75% of the Pre-accident value of the vehicle in repair costs - some insurance co will authorise up 100%.
Their priority is safety and minimising costs - each individual case is decided on its own merit, or at list it should be.
Cat C W/O's generally just indicate that it would cost too much to repair the vehicle, in which case you could get mulitple quotes from Bodyshops and see if any of them are within the acceptable limit for your Ins Co.
Its generally only Cat D W/O's that indicate that outside factors such as hire car costs, or lengthy waiting time for parts have made the vehicle a write-off.
Generally if a car can be repaired economically (not beyond economical repair) then an insurance co will repair.
Again, this varies from company to company and claim handler to claim handler - dont be afraid to dispute the decision with your Insurance co if you disagree with it.
Hope this helps
|
|
I also read somewhere that the need for crumple zones on modern cars means that the panels are welded in such a way that the welds will burst (or whatever they do!) relatively easily, to absorb impact. Maybe not so in your case, but I imagine that would be very expensive to repair.
|
|
Also worth noting that once the car is repaired and back on the road it will be worth less than it's pre-accident value. Especially with a Cat C, as it's recorded on your V5.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi, well i have a little story that will amaze! just over 2 weeks ago I bought a 1994 honda del sol VXi convertible, i had spent months looking at many others and finally settled on this one as being the best for the money. It had just had a new exhaust, new brake discs and pads, alloys with new tyres, low miles(75,000) full electric roof, full service history from day 1 and rarer automatic version and it drove absolutely like a new car.
Last monday, 29th september, an idiot that had been tailgating me for over 5 miles, drove into the rear of my car and then drove off.
The damage was a dented bumper( plastic) and the rear number plate panel was dented in plus a small crease in the boot edge, otherwise it was fine. it drove without problem and was not affected by the bump. I have been a mechnic for many years and once had my own bodyshop repairing and restoring american muscle cars etc, so i am not a novice at seeing what is repairable or not. To me, it just needed a bumper and a back panel, i could get these parts from Ebay for under £100, and change them over in a couple of hours as the parts damages are all just bolted on, apart from the small crease in the boot floor( easily banged out in a minute! the paint wasnt even cracked.
So, after the insurance company gave me the details of the garage enlisted to do the estimate/repairs, i drove the car there, and the fella said that they could easily repair itif they can get the parts.
I had a phone call later that day from the garage to say that there was a 10 month back order for the parts and the insurance company would probably write it off because of the time involved in getting the parts. I told the fella i could get the parts within a week, but he refused my offer and said i would have to see what the insurers engineer had to say, but in his opinion he would write it off as a category B!!
When i argued this point, after all, a cat B is a total loss and cannot be put back on the road and has to be broken up for parts, and i said the car would be only a cat D at most. The garage fella was quite rude and argumentative about this, and said i would have to leave my car there until the engineer had inspected it. Being a very untrusting person these days and thinking every one is trying to scam me, i took my car away and told the garage that i would bring it back when the engineer was at the garage and stay with it to talk to him personally, this upset the garage considerably, but nevertheless, i took my car home. It drive perfectly!! this was thursday last week, i phoned my insurers and told them i wasnt happy with the attitude or manner of the garage and they arranged for me to take my car back for the engineers inspection today.
In between thursday and today, i have taken my car to 3 independant body repairers who all said it is an easy repair, plus a friend of my brothers is a police accident investigator and he looked at my car and also agreed it was minor damage and definately not a write off.
On saturday i drove from Devon to Dover to see my brother, and then over to France and belgium to get a few bits of shopping, then drove back to my home in devon. No problems whatsoever.
Today i took my car to the garage again, had to leave it there all day because they didnt know what time the insurance engineer was coming. I went back at 5pm to pick it up. The engineer had inspected my car at midday and the garage fella had said the engineer had classed the car as a total loss!! the garage fella was not going to let me take my car away, so i told them i would call the police if they did not release my property and they then gave in and let me take my car.
The engineer had left a message on my answer machine at home and stated that the car was being classed as a CAT B total loss and it would not be allowed back on the road and used for parts only.
I am furious, i want to keep my car, fix it myself and save the insurers and myself money, i phoned my insurers and told them i do not accept the findings of this engineer and want a second opinion, so thats how it stands! i have now phoned the insurance company of the fella that drove into my car and informed them that i want their engineer to inspect my car as it would be more economical if my car was repaired.
I have fully comp insurance, so i get a free hire car at the other insurers expense, plus all my other out of pocket expenses paid, and if they let me keep my car and give me the money to fix it, i wont need the hire car, ill be recycling parts to repair my car and therefore doing my bit for the environment.
You tell me where the sense is in all this waste?
Anyway, if i have to, ill bring this to the attention of the media and make as much fuss as p[ossible because the whole situation is madness!!!
Any thoughts?
laurie
|
I can only suggest they have taken into consideration the age of the car and have decided a minor thump can lead to weird and unexpected faults in other parts of the structure. I think you are right to battle on though, you know the car and what actually happened to it and I can only suggest it is an administrative decision that few experts will have been involved in.
Incidentally I'm not surprised of the "holding" garages attitude. They appear to have expected additional fees to come their way for storage etc.
A local garage to me always, without fail, takes damaged panels off of cars that they recover. This makes them look much worse to the untrained eye and appears to persuade insurance companies and owners alike that, if they are to be repaired, they should be left where they are.
|
|
|
You should never have got your own ins co involved.
|
There is another current post where the owner wants his Audi A5 car written-off rather than repaired.
You can please some of the people some of the time.................................
|
the point is that any vehicle no matter its age, if its repairable then it should be repaired if its obviously not excessively expensive to do so.
As far as using my own insurance company is concerned, you dont have any choice in the matter, when you report an accident to your insurers(a legal requirement), its then up to them to have the car assessed by their engineer.
My car is an older car but its also a modern day classic and it happened to be my choice, and to replace it i would have to search high and low to find another model of equal quality as mine, which would involve a lot of expense and time searching. plus the settlement figure would be a lot less than what i paid for my car just two weeks ago, so why, as the accident was not my fault to start with, should i suffer in any way at all other than whats reasonable?
A court would look unfavourably on any party that caused more expense than was reasonable, so i am confident that i will acheive my goal, however long it takes!
|
An insurance co can only advise you of which repairer to take your car to. The choice is entirely yours. I work in the Industry and that is legal fact.
Take it to a repairer of your choice and get a written estimate. A common sense approach will change things entirely. If the assessor thinks it's 10 months to fix, as these guys advise, he's got no choice other than to write it off.
|
Actually you can report the accident to your insurers as you are olbiged to do but simply inform them that this is for "information purposes only" and that you will not be making a claim at all. That way your NCB stays intact and you can fix it yourself.
Sadly any insurance company will write off a car of that age almost without question, although I'm surprised that thet are going to make it a Cat B.
|
Thank you for all of these comments - they have been very constructive.
I have now repaired the car. Total cost of the repairs, including the MOT which it passed, was £500. I carried out all the repair work myself, although I did buy a pre-painted bumper.
The payment from the insurance company covered all the costs, and the repairs took less time than finding a replacement car would have.
The car has now covered more than 2,000 miles since being repaired.
I was interested to see the post about the nearly new damaged Audi A5. The reason why we wanted to keep the Astra was that we knew the car, and it did not require any welding work. I think that the Audi owner does not want to keep the car because it requires significant work, and the car would lose significant value.
|
lauriesmb- I don't think it's true that all Cat B cars must be broken for spares- although admittedly this is commonly quoted here.
I'm fairly certain some can be reregistered in the same way Cat Cs can if they pass a VIC check.
I'd recommend checking with DVLA- it's they who administer this process not the insurance companies.
Edited by 9000 on 08/10/2008 at 00:38
|
9000 - every piece of literature that I've ever read states that Cat B should never be returned to the road, they're for spares only AFAIK. My friend does drive a Cat B which has been on the road since 2002 and although he wants a private plate he won't put one on in case the process of swapping the plates over gets anyone sniffing at the DVLA!
|
|
|
Hi matey,
Ive really got the bit between my teeth over this one, mainly because i only bought my car the week before the accident, and i had searched everywhere for a good example of the model with all options fitted, its to take to spain with me, so when the idiot engineer the insurers employed to examine my car, came up with a CAT B total loss, i was gobbsmacked!!
Have now been onto insurers ombudsman and DVLA and VOSA( they do the vic checks), I sent photos and a video of my car to them all, and they have stated that the insurers are being unreasonable and that it seems that their engineer has been a bit "zealous" in his deductions. well thats an understatement as far as im concerned! the mans a total idiot and is causing a lot of problems and stress that could easily have been avoided.
I am hanging onto the car, in fact ive repaired it now, it took me a day and it doesnt look like anything was ever wrong! VOSA told me that i could apply for a vic check at £38 and all they are interested in is making sure the car is the same car on my document. DVLA told me that once VOSA clear my car on the vic check then my car will have the "flag" lifted and thats that! legally back on the road with a new reg cert stating that my car has been repaired and checked.
So my solicitors and the insurance ombudsman are putting pressure on the insurers(NIG) to remove the CAT B and re categorise my car under CAT D. and give me a fair price for the inconvienience and repairs etc that they should have done in the beginning!!
|
|
|
|
|
The insurance company engineer in this case is an incompetant idiot, ive had my car examined by 3 independant garages now, and a police accident investigator, who all have stated that the car should in their opinion, be classed as a cat D, on the grounds that it is repairable but the time expected to obtain the parts are longer than practicable for the insurers.
Ive fixed the car myself now, the dent in the plastic bumper just popped out when i removed it from the car and ive obtained a rear panel from Ebay for £40, same colour and bolted straight on. No other damage on the car, no structural damage at all.
Every time i contacted my insurers they told me a complete load of twaddle, never phoned back when they promised, and wouldnt negotiate at all about settling the matter amicably.
My solicitor states that i have a duty to keep my costs to a minimum and a reasonable level while persuing the claim, so what really cheeses me off is this, because the dipstick engineer they employed has given my car a CAT B, it cannot be resold or put back on the road, only broken up for parts, even though its perfectly driveable and nothing wrong with it! so, because of this, and because i am fully comp, i have a hire car that is costing the other drivers insurance company £176 per day!! ive had the car 2 weeks now while my insurers dither and dick about, and its possible that ill have the car another 2 weeks! in the meantime, my insurers have made me an offer that is far short of what my car is worth, especially considering that i only bought the car the week before i was driven into.
So now i have been advised by my solictor to accept their offer as an interim payment only, and the insurers have been infoirmed of my complaint and protest, and they are being persued by my solicitor for a fair price, plus a change in their category asessment from B to D to enable me to put my car back on the road legally.
I have been in contact with the insurance ombudsman and they are taking the case up against the insurers to resolve this matter quickly and amicably.
I simply cannot believe that these people are so stupid as to not see that their actions are causing more expense and stress alround, when the simple answer was to appoint another engineer to examine my car and or change the category to one that is so obviously more appropriate.
I am not releasing my car to the insurers or any breakers yard, i am not accepting an incompetant engineers misguided report on my car and acting as judge jury and executioner when my car is in perfectly good roadworthy condition and is just the subject of being examined by an idiot.
I can quite clearly see why so many motorists avoid insurance when you certainly do not get value for money, and they do not live up to their promises.
|
|
- lauriesmb
Just a suggestion for the future, but have you considered looking at the specialist classic car insurers for when you next renew? There are a good few of these around, most seem to be pretty reputable and they will almost certainly take a much more sympathetic and understanding approach than a mainstream firm. Your car doesn't have to be ancient, they will accept most 'modern classic' models provided it's not just a bog-standard recent mainstrean motor. If you buy one of the classic car mags yo'll find plenty of ads for them in there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
See tinyurl.com/44s6z9
"Total Loss- if the total cost of repair exceeds the value of the vehicle, it is a total loss. Most insurance companies will total a vehicle at 70-80% of value."
|
Do I understand this correctly?
My car is worth about £1500, according to the books, but to me is worth, say £3000.
If I hit an animal that runs out in front of me on the road, and the insurance company thinks that the cost to repair is going to be £1500 (or even about £1000), they will probably declare the car a write off.
Am I correct that I can ask the insurance company for my damaged car, and they will not only give it to me, but will also give me £1500?
(And then, of course, get it all back from me in increased premiums over the next few years!)
|
Say they value it at £1500, but you wish to buy it back from them because they declare it a write off.
They may value the 'salvage' at £300. You may have a policy excess of say £200.
You would then receive £1500 - £300 - £200 = £1000 from your insurers, plus you keep the car.
And yes you will pay it back in increased premiums!
|
Thanks, astrabob.
Sounds like a good way to ease cash flow problems ;-)
|
Sounds like a good way to ease cash flow problems ;-)
It certainly will be. For you will find that you are being fed, watered and housed for free.
At Her Majesty's pleasure. Insurance Fraud is frowned on mightily by the courts.
|
Its the high cost of parts and labour at approved repairers that does it. I can speak from experience.
Having recently had my Accord Tourer written off as category 'c' due to engine flood damage by my insurers the salvage cost to me was 23% of the write off value.
There was absolutely no bodywork damage at all. Just a well busted engine
I bought the car back and sold it on to my local independent garage owner who wanted it for his wife .
He has sourced a replacement engine from a write off with body work damage and his wife now says she does not want the car ( she reckons it looks like a hearse.) . ....
He has offered to fix it, get the VOSA approval and sell it back to me for a sum that leaves me with a couple of thousand profit .
The only thing that concerns me is how it might affect the resale but I am tempted. I would have to know exactly what the history of the other engine was.
So what would you do in the circumstances - take it back or buy something else?
|
So what would you do in the circumstances - take it back or buy something else?
Take it back. You'll get not just a bargain but a car you can call Lazarus :)
|
Another question.
If my car is involved in an accident which leads the insurance company to declare it a write-off, and I want to buy it back, I presume that I tell them so as soon as possible, before they have valued the car.
Normally, one might haggle with the insurance company a bit over the value of the car, am I right in assuming that one would do that after telling them you wanted the car back - and that it would in no way weaken your negotiating position over the value of the car?
(These questions sound a bit morbid, but there are just too many animals on the road in these parts, so I want to be prepared.)
|
Tyro -
I did not decide straight away whether I would buy back as I needed a bit of time to negotiate a price with the garage owner who bought it.
It depends on the insurance company how they value the car when they write it off but they will use the same car guides such as Glasses / Parkers and take into account the mileage to arrive at a figure.
You do not have to accept the figure .You may have to provide back up information to justify any increase in the settlement and don't forget that you will also lose your excess and your premium will go up next year.
In my case I was given a fair offer and then said I wanted to buy the car back - the buy back figure was 23% of the offer to me .
I tried haggling it down but they would not budge. I assume they have an agreement with the salvage companies to buy all the write offs at a set percentage figure of the agreed write off value..
|
Blue- I agree pretty much all the literature says you can't reregister a cat B but I think this is because the source this originates from is the code which the insurance companies have agreed to operate within.
Broadly this says that ins companies must make every endeavour to prevent Cat A, B cars being reregistered. They do this by only selling them to salvage dealers with a condition of the sale being that the car chassis is destroyed.
The below is quoted from section 8 in here: www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2002/vehicsc/...7
In theory, there should be no real need for VIC to apply to Category A and B
salvage because it is generally not economically possible to repair such vehicles
safely (the Code requires that Category A vehicles are crushed and Category B
vehicles are broken for spare parts). Nevertheless, on occasion, vehicles which have
been assigned a Category A or B classification do reappear on the road. It is
understood that the reason for this is generally either due to ?administrative error? in
classification, or, that experts discover that economic and safe repair is possible,
following closer examination of the damaged vehicle. Consequently VIC will, in
principle, need to be applied to all Category A-C salvage.
This supports it too:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVeh...7
Essentially it seems that category A-C salvage can be reregistered if it passes a VIC check. Whether or not you can buy and then economically repair Category A & B salvage is another matter.
Edited by 9000 on 09/10/2008 at 23:44
|
|
hi all.sorry to kind of go off subject but i have a renault scenic fidji 1.6 02 it got hat by a lorry and to have it fixed will cost £1400 and the car was only brought it for £2000 2 years ago.do you think this will be a write off?
|
|
|
