As I understand it, NIPs are supposed to arrive within 14 days, but are not needed if you were told at the time you were to be prosecuted.
It's the law, so the above always applies, except when it doesn't....
The time limit might not apply if the police had trouble finding your address, which is not the case here, assuming the car is registered to one of you.
I recall Mr Loophole saying NIPs were often served out of time, which many people don't realise.
If it were me, I think I would write to say the NIP has been served out of time and you plan to take no further action.
Just my opinion, though, and the law should be checked with a solicitor before you make any bold statements.
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If NIP not served within 14 days by first class post, the case is a non starter.
See in www.pepipoo.com for more info.
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"If NIP not served within 14 days by first class post, the case is a non starter."
In this case, PROVIDED the OP is the reg keeper, if not, original NIP may have gone to reg keeper, and may have been in time.
If OP is the reg keeper, then reply to the effect that NIP is out of time and you expect it to be cancelled immediately.
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>> the law should be checked with a solicitor before you make any bold statements.
If NIP not served within 14 days by first class post, the case is a non starter.
So therefore, can we assume that in making that bold statement, presumably movilogo has checked it with a solicitor or is a solicitor himself?
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back to the original question as opposed to the legality of the NIP.....this happened to me and the wife once. Wrote to Wilts police saying that it was one or other of us and in order to get the correct person, could they send a clearer photo of who it was. They said that they couldn't so I took the points as chances were it was me.
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www.motorlawyers.co.uk/procedure/notice_of_intende...m
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SFAIK if OP is the registered keeper the NIP is way out of time and should be sent back. If it is a company or lease car the NIP has to reach the company within 14 days plus a couple for time in postage and it is up to them to forward i to the 'driver'. This hinges on who is the registered keeper
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AS (S/Ldr?) AS states, in a nutshell if poster is the Reg Keeper then NOIP has to be sent by First Class post to arrive in the post no later than midnight of the 15th day (14 days plus day of offence) other wise there is a bar to prosecution if outside this time scale.
But if poster is not Reg keeper, the same applies in relation to Reg keeper, who may then pass information that Poster was the driver. In this case there is no time limit in relation to the poster.
But if poster has just acquired the vehicle and Police have shown due diligence in enquiry to DVLA and held up by problems with change in ownership they can still go ahead outside the 14 days.
Whilst it can be pointed out to SCP NOIP out of time they do not have to neccessarily cancel themselves but if poster does not accept Conditional offer then he has to bring up non service at Court.
Again he , as receipient of 172 Form to name driver, has 28 days to respond if he doesn't Court case (offence) and if guilty 6 points/fine/CPS costs/Victim Support donation whereas 3 points/£60 conditional offer. There is a defence:
A person shall not be guilty of an offence if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
Length of time information about offence received may help the above but first I would ask for a photo (dilegence) which may also ID the driver.
dvd
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I telephoned the number on the NIP and said we didn't know who was driving as it was 10 weeks ago.
The lady sent us the photos, which show it was me driving (that is to say it appears to be a man driving but his hand is covering his face, but I know it is me.
The accompanying letter states that they originally sent the NIP to our previous address (which as it happens has brought to our attention the oversight of not having changed the address on the vehicle reistration document; which we have now remedied).
Would it really take them 10 weeks to find our new address (which I assume they got from the motor insurance industry, as the car is insured at the new address).
We pay Royal Mail for a redirection service and receive redirected mail EVERY week; including recently tax disc reminders of both her car AND my bike.
Although I am not in the habit of accusing the Police of being a bunch of big fat liars, I simply cannot accept their word on this.
It is my belief that the Police have cocked up here somehow, and although ultimately I may just have to accept 3 points and £60 fine, I would much rather that I did not have to do so.
Is there any way I can fight this?
Any suggestions will be much appreciated
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Your "oversight" was an offence unfortunately (Failure to Notify Change of Address)- something else may have triggered the address to come to their attention (road tax renewal maybe ?). A Royal Mail re-direction service wouldn't be much of a defence - you have two choices plead not guilty on the grounds of a belated delivery of the NIP - all the Prosecution will have to show is that they sent the NIP to the recorded address and then followed it up when the new address came to their notice. The words "sticky" and "wicket" are the ones that immediately spring to mind.
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"Is there any way I can fight this?"
You can fight it all you like but you would be wasting your time! Prosecution have complied with the relevant legislation.
Strange isn't it that in the original post the OP 'forgot' to mention that he had failed to notify change of keeper details. Stands to reason then that it would be difficult to post any item within 14 days to the new address. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
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As I have explained to you on another site you are heading rapidly to a 'failure to furnish' charge against your wife and that is 6 points and a large fine £300 plus, last weeks case on that site got 6 points and £900. Regards Peter
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Thought. If the date of the offence was 26th May, and the NIP date was 5th August is there not something odd?
Can you issue a NIP as normal. Allegedly have it returned marked "goen away" or whatever, find the new address later, and reissue NIP with a new date? I can think of a few other possible holes related to this, but I'm no lawyer or policeman. Pepipoo (sp) needed here as it all hinges on what is the correct course of action on their side if this occurs.
I might add though, if you win the speeding case, you may well find yourself done for the lack of change of address details. You have rather brought attention to it!
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The first NIP has to arrive at the known address on the V5 by day 14 ( midnight )( day 0 is the offence date ) If that address was correct as per the V% than it is deemed delivered. The NIP may not of course be returned by the new house holder and a New NIP is posted to what ever the V5 address it at that time at about 30 days again this may not, or may be sent back. Then they search the DVLA records and Insurance details against that reg number and low and behold a new address so they send the NIP again to the new address. This is how I think this NIP finally arrived at to the correct keeper of the vehicle. Not that person has 28 days to respond to detailing the name and details of the driver. If they choose to go down the unsure route it will go to court and you would have to show extensive reasonable diligence has been carried out to identify the driver. Phone calls, petrol receipts, a whole host of things including requesting photo's to help identify the driver and if necessary, making an appointment and going to view the video if this was a mobile unit so a video is available to view. However the OP has the photo and it is him and the camera unit now that so they will be considering laying details before the court for 'Failing to Furnish' S172 which now attract 6 points and a large, leans tested fine, £300 plus. Last week a gut was fined £900 and 6 points due to his income. I hope that helps any reader to understand how this can work. Regards Peter
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"Is there any way I can fight this?" Strange isn't it that in the original post the OP 'forgot' to mention that he had failed to notify change of keeper details. Stands to reason then that it would be difficult to post any item within 14 days to the new address. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Constructive answers are appreciated; sarcasm is not.
When we moved home we informed as many relevant organisations as we could think of. DVLA was an oversight.
Irrespective of that being an offence, your sarcastic comments are not helpful.
The oversight only came to light when both the car AND bike tax reminders were received during the duration of this post.
As I have stated before, I will take the 3 points and fine if I must, well knowing that it will be the first and last time I ever break the motoring laws.
What was it my Aunty used to say about sarcasm being the lowest form of wit?
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Before they raised the points to 6 from 3 the chage code was the same as an MS90 insurance companies do not like MS90 as it does not identify what you were actual accused of. Some Insurance companies have refused to accecpt MS90 insurance renewel. Now it is 6 points the Insurance comapnies cash on on this and over the next 5 years they will empty your pocket.. Some insurance companies may little charge for an SP30 3 point speeding charge. Regards Peter
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This will my last post on this particular topic.
Your wise Aunty may have also have said, "Its always better to tell the truth."
I was not being sarcastic I was telling you as it is!
There are a lot of knowledgeable members of this forum who will take the time to freely give advice. However there is little point and a waste of their time if the full facts are not presented in the first instance. Many times we see questions from people who only tell you what they want you to hear; not that I'm calling them a 'Bunch of big fat liars', of course.
I'm pleased to see that you are prepared to take the points and the fine but I'm afraid that the thrust of your posts seems to be 'how can I get out of this one?'
Edited by Fullchat on 24/08/2008 at 19:11
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Sorry, FC - I have much regard for you and your postings on this forum, but I have to say that "But never let the truth get in the way of a good story" is pretty clearly an example of sarcasm. Whether or not it is justifiable is another issue.
"Telling it like it is" means an statement of fact that is blunt, direct and straightforward. Nothing more.
Yes, I do agree the OP could and probably should have presented the full facts straight away.
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Is there any way I can fight this?
Stop squirming, be a man and accept the penalty.
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This months SPECIAL BARGAIN for you:
Magistrates Court case for failing to name driver
Max fine £1,000, PLUS
CPS prosecution cost £40 -70 PLUS
Victim Support donation £15 PLUS
Discretionary Disqualification OR
SIX Points on the Licence.
but to you Sir in a
Conditional Offer for speeding :
£60 and
3 points (if nit subject to totting)
This amazing offer only last from 28 days from receipt of 172 Form to name driver.
dvd
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This months SPECIAL BARGAIN for you:
And our Buy One Get One Free for this week is
Failing to notify change of address for registered owner £1000
Failing to notify change off address driving licence £1000.
Edited by martint123 on 25/08/2008 at 11:20
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A columnist for the telegraph, Robin something, blast can't remember the surname, he does the countryside stuff..... Robin page that's it. National Trust and RSPCA can't stand him cos he isn't left wing enough.
Anyway he went to court and took a massive risk because he REALLY didnt know who was driving his car when it got flashed or caught or whatever. To name a driver, logically, would have been to perjure himself. he stood to lose a lot but because he told the whole truth and wasn't looking for loopholes he won.
I think if you genuinely dont know then it is actually provably illegal to lie and say you do.
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But the OP says "but I know it is me" to say anything else now is to risk perverting the course of justice and taking a cold shower at 6 am every morning with 100 other naked guys. Be real and deal with this. Regards Peter
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We'll have a whip round for soap on a rope !
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There not allowed the rope bit in case they top themselves with it. Regards Peter
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Peter D is right - OP knew who was driving. I don't think amateur "Mr Loopholes" ever get anywhere.
Except me of course, but it was only a parking ticket, see Robin Hoods Bay posting, ha ha
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Fullchat, you are an ass.
I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow people to "try and get off with things they had done wrong".
At the risk of allowing the sarcastic among to you show once again that you are indeed the lowest form of wit, I feel obliged to inform you that I presented all the facts that I CONSIDERED RELEVANT in the original post.
I was not aware of our failure to change the address of the V5, therefore was not aware of the significance of this fact, and presented it to the forum as soon as I became aware.
I am truly envious of those among you who remember to tell ALL the relevant authorities of your change of address, especially when you are in the middle of moving house hundreds of miles to take up your new job whilst finding 2 new schools for your children AND arranging your Father's funeral AND having to travel 6 hours each way at weekends to visit your Sister who is in a coma (thanks be to God she is now ok).
I will try to be more organised like you guys in future.
ANYWAY,
My Wife has responded to her NIP, declaring me as the driver; which I was.
I have received my NIP and responded, admitting I was the driver.
I have now been offered £60/3-points.
This has really grated on me as I am not in the habit of speeding, so much so that the kids hate it when I drive because they say I "drive like an old man". I have been a professional driver of either taxis/vans/HGV's/Trains for the last 20 years with no previous, (and as far as the HGV's and Trains go, we have "blackbox" spy in the cab technology).
I recently took my Wife's car for 2 new front tyres, and the chap commented on the fact that the tyres currently fitted were not the correct size; i.e. my Wife had purchased a set of alloys from ebay, complete with tyres, which were rubbing slightly on the mudflaps.
I have calculated (I'm quite good at maths) that these tyres will have caused the speedo to read LOW; not by much; about 3mph.
I have now changed the front tyres to a lower profile, which will keep the overall tyre circumference nearer to the original factory fitted tyre size, which will minimise any discrepancy in the speedo.
Anyway, when I was clocked at 35 in a 30, the speedo would have been reading 32, which yes is still speeding, and would have been a rare momentary excess for me.
Would this be taken in mitigation? Is it worth going to court? Or should I just cough the £60/3-points?
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I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow people to "try and get off with things they had done wrong".
You're thinking of pepipoo, or whatever it's called.
when I was clocked at 35 in a 30 the speedo would have been reading 32 which yes is still speeding and would have been a rare momentary excess for me. Would this be taken in mitigation? Is it worth going to court? Or should I just cough the £60/3-points?
So your car was under-reading its speed, which as I understand it is not allowed. If you think that you are going to help yourself by asking the court to take into account the fact that you had modified your car so that the speedo no longer met legal requirements, then go ahead. It'll be interesting to hear what the magistrates think of that excuse!
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Taking the fine seems to be a good idea in this case.
If it goes to court, you may be fined extra (max £1000) for failing to notify your change of address to DVLA.
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If I was the Magistrate I would say to you........"How do I know the oversize tyres were fitted at the time of the offence, can you prove beyond reasonable doubt to the Court that they were"?...........back to you Sir.
Edited by TedCrilly on 13/10/2008 at 14:52
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For the sake of 60 quid I'd just take it on the chin.
Do you wife's insurance company know about these non standard wheel / tyre sizes ( now different front and back?) That's not meant as an accusation by the way!
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The offence is exceeding a speed limit. 30.5mph in a 30 limit and the offence is complete.
Would appear to be no argument NOIP out of time because it was sent to address recorded on DVLA Regisiter as Reg Keeper - no change notified.
Stated is the fact that poster now has completed the 172 form which CAN NOW BE USED to prove he was the driver in a Court of Law. This and the evidence from the camera -
fait accompli.........
Should be bourne in mind that to challenge the offence in a Court will, from the facts stated, more than likely lead to a finding of Guilt irrespective of what the Poster may think. Max fine £1,000 but applying new sentencing guide lines 25 -75% of weekly income, 3 to 6 points, costs of CPS Prosecution £30 -60 pounds, plus £15 Victim Support surcharge.
That Conditional Offer (£60/3 points) seems to have some merit in my book.
dvd
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If the wrong wheel/tyre combination was the main cause of speeding then I'd (a) pay the fine and take the points and (b) make sure the wheels/tyres are legal and the insurance knows about them. God forbid if there was an accident you could find you have no fully comp insurance - only third party.
As others have said, claiming your speedo was under reading due to the wrong tyres were fitted (and your wife was responsible for this) could open another can of worms. You could get the 3 points/£60 fine and be done for more. Because speedos are not allowed to under-read is why manufacturers make them overread.
Another point on the tyres, which now you seem to be saying are different sizes front/rear (but maybe you swapped all to low profile)... what size spare do you have? Might it be useless now the tyres are a different size?
Not having a go. Just want to be sure a fellow backroomer's car is safe and legal.
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As others have said, it is also an offence to have a speedo that under reads, and also to have wheels of different sizes on the car.
If you want to tweak the tail that much, then go ahead.
Are you also seriously saying that, having fitted the wheels, and, noticing that they rub on the mudflaps,as you said originally, then did nothing about it?
By my count, you've admitted, on here, between 4 and 6 offences. Sounds like £60 and 3 points is a fair deal. Get over it.
And calling other posters "Asses" is not on, not on here. Wind your neck in or go elsewhere.
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My Wife has responded to her NIP declaring me as the driver; which I was. I have received my NIP and responded admitting I was the driver.
In your original post you said "Neither of us can remember who was driving that day, on that stretch of road.", and now you've admitted that you were the driver. I'm not sure which of any of the alleged facts of the case to believe. Cough up the £60 and accept the 3 points before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole.
Edited by L'escargot on 13/10/2008 at 16:28
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In your original post you said "Neither of us can remember who was driving that day on that stretch of road." and now you've admitted that you were the driver.
He stated in a later post that :
"The lady sent us the photos, which show it was me driving (that is to say it appears to be a man driving but his hand is covering his face, but I know it is me."
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I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow people to "try and get off with things they had done wrong".
You thought wrong, badly wrong! Sorry but I have no sympathy for uk_geezer.
... man driving but his hand is covering his face, but I know it is me."
Wonder why he was covering his face approaching a speed camera?
I am truly envious of those among you who remember to tell ALL the relevant authorities of your change of address, ... .. (I'm quite good at maths) ..
and at using the internet.
But not good at making a list of common chores to do when you move house? Such lists are available readily if you do not have the brainpower to do it yourself.
... my Wife had purchased a set of alloys from ebay, complete with tyres, which were rubbing slightly on the mudflaps.
Blaming it all on the wife, eh?
Wonder if the insurance company was informed of non-factory alloys fitted to the car?
Wonder if this too was forgotten about because of the house move, and looking for new schools, and other tear-jerking excuses?
Edited by jbif on 13/10/2008 at 17:09
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"Fullchat, you are an ass."
Forgive me if I don't loose any sleep over it. (Sarcasm)
I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow people to "try and get off with things they had done wrong".
I think you are in the wrong place. This forum contains many people with different viewpoints on a variety of motoring subjects and on the whole posters remain courteous and professional in their discussions. Topics are discussed within the framework of the law. By and large it does not condone nor support the breaking of the law.
I certainly suspect a Troll and have done from the beginning. Your post re wheels and tyres bought on ebay only confirms this.
Edited by Fullchat on 13/10/2008 at 17:24
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I certainly suspect a Troll and have done from the beginning. Your post re wheels and tyres bought on ebay only confirms this.
Especially the bit where he claims that his wife bought them. Not many women would bother
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Especially the bit where he claims that his wife bought them. Not many women would bother
How would you know? ;)
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Lets hope he takes the fine otherwise what if I were the magistrate ;-) Not that I am but....
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He stated in a later post that : "The lady sent us the photos which show it was me driving (that is to say it appears to be a man driving but his hand is covering his face but I know it is me."
Soz for not reading all the posts properly.
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Fullchat you are an ass. I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow people to "try and get off with things they had done wrong".
Actually not.
While there ARE ways of avoiding points/fines/jail time, as that lawyer Mr Loophole keeps pointing out, the vast majority of forum members here will take it on the chin if they have been naughty.
Obviously, if the prosecuting authorities make an error, or there is cause for concern over the vaildity of the offence (for example, over-zealous parking restrictions!), then members will advise other members as to their best course of action.
Conversely, anyone on here giving 'helpful hints' on how to - illegally - wriggle out of trouble gets short shrift - I famously called somebody a clueless ******** after he suggested members can pay/bribe people to take 'their' points, and perjure themselves by saying they were driving at the time of the incident.
Depends where your moral compass points, I suppose...
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I think we all tend to ask "How can I avoid this penalty". It is human nature. I recall several senior police officers, one senior minister (Jack Straw) and the then solicitor general (Harriet Harperson) all squirming their way out of a speeding ticket.
These days it is so easy to have a document with the wrong address on it. I forgot to update my V5, but did update my licence on moving. And I recently discovered my licence was invalid due to being 10 years old. Ooops.
I often wonder what happens if the NIP is sent within 14 days, but is lost in the post. Anyone could claim on receipt of the subsequent letter "But I never received the NIP". So, how do they distinguish between truth and lies? Or do they assume guilty until proved innocent. Quite how they get away with first class mail and not registered is beyond me.
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I think we all tend to ask "How can I avoid this penalty".
Not all of us. When I had an SP30 Fixed Penalty Notice (my one and only penalty to date) placed in my hand 17 years ago I didn't even consider trying to squirm out of it. I knew I was guilty and I accepted the consequences without question. And as a constant reminder of my transgression I still keep the document amongst my motoring memorabilia.
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As this thread appears to be drawing to a close, I have no qualms over a mini-hijack!
Would the CPS not start some "further" action against an "alleged" transgressor long before a (seventy-two day) period of time had passed, with no reply to thier initial contact? how long will they hold off further action without acknowlegement?
Billy
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>> I think we all tend to ask "How can I avoid this penalty". Not all of us.
May I recommend AutoGlym polish for your halo Sir? And if you hold still a moment, I'll brush the dust off. :)
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May I recommend AutoGlym polish for your halo Sir?
Acknowledging one's errors and taking the punishment isn't the preserve of aspiring saints. It's part of the basic standards of good behaviour which any society requires if it's going to function without turning into a police state .. and the absence of it in some parts of society is what has led us down the path of ever-more-intrusive policing.
Take your pick of what sort of society you want to live in, but remember that your choice has consequences.
Edited by NowWheels on 15/10/2008 at 04:14
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Bearing in mind that the PO publicly admits to losing several thousand items a day there is no reason why a lot of NIPs should not be amongst them!
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Unlikely, AS - NIPs aren't really worth stealing.
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I don't know where items that are 'lost' actually finish up - that is why they are lost! I have no intention of suggesting that stuff that goes missing is being stolen! Thousands a day is a way better %age than some organisations achieve - see the vast thread on MIB Insurance database errors at 5%!
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>I have no intention of suggesting that stuff that goes missing is being stolen!
I know you didn't mean that, AS. But I don't believe that when a birthday card in a distinctive coloured envelope arrives covered in 'This item was opened in the postal service' tape, it's because it happened to get snagged in a van door (motoring link) and torn open accidentally. If you don't want this to happen, your post office counter will sell you a 'Don't Steal' option for several times the price.
};---)
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WDB - I think we are slightly at cross purposes here! I am talking about items in the hands of the PO that are 100% lost, hidden in a corner of a sorting depot in a sack or whatever and never seen again. You are talking about items that may be opened and contents stolen or tampered with, which isn't quite the same thing. Lost is lost and stolen is stolen!
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Fullchat you are an ass.
Charming!
I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow people to "try and get off with things they had done wrong".
What made you think that?
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>> I thought the whole point of this and similar forums was to allow peopleto >> "try and get off with things they had done wrong". What made you think that?
highlights how good this forum is compared to some others then, doesn't it.
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Yes, but I'm an ASS! :-)
Been called a lot worse over the years.
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>Yes, but I'm an ASS! :-)
Maybe it's a compliment nowadays? Can you ask a teenager?
I was once described as "A sanctimonious pontificating little git!" by someone I had a disagreement with.
Up until that point I'd always thought he didn't like me ;-)
Kevin...
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Yes but I'm an ASS! :-) Been called a lot worse over the years.
I suppose being called a docile quadruped is not so bad.
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