"If the drivers of the vehicle could live without A/C then maybe pressing for free servicing for a considerable time as compensation would be worthwhile"
But at resale time they might lose out. I'd push for a replacement car and definately not retro-fit of aircon
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I suspect that legally you will have very little room to force this.
Dealer supplied a car, it isn't faulty, its just the wrong one, but you accepted it and signed for it.
I doubt that you would find a judge who would order either retrofitting, or a replacement car, the cost to the supplier far ouweighs any benefit to you. As to compensation, well the aircon was free so what have you lost?
I suspect that the best that you can hope for is a few hundred refund. Negotiate hard, but not too hard as you might end up with nothing
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I suspect that legally you will have very little room to force this. Dealer supplied a car .......... its just the wrong one but you accepted it and signed for it.
I disagree.
Aircon was included on the invoice, and the invoice is a statement by the dealer of what is being (or has been) supplied and, more importantly, what has been paid for. What the dealer actually supplied was different from what they said they had. And that's fraud. The dealer should take the car back and supply a new car to the specification stated on the invoice.
The fact that the car was signed for by ozvaldinho is irrelevant.
Aircon was on the invoice and was paid for. The fact that the price of the aircon on the invoice was zero is irrelevant, although this concept may be difficult for some people to comprehend. Supplying aircon for a price of zero doesn't make it not part of the specification of the car.
ozvaldinho, if the dealer refuses to supply a car to the correct specification then point out, by using the argument detailed above, that the invoice is a fraudulent document. Don't let them get away with it. I hope they see sense without you having to argue with them.
Edited by L'escargot on 06/08/2008 at 08:25
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As SWMBO says on a regular basis "You might be right but ......."
I am sure that going in and accusing the dealership of committing a criminal act is precisely what is not required. However if you really think that it is a fraud then you should report it to the police, and I am sure that L'escargot will be able to assist you in identifying the relevant legislation.
Whilst some may feel 'morally outraged' over this, you should retain a sense of reality over what can and cannot be done, otherwise you will end up with extra hassle and no benefit.
In reality such 'foul ups' happen all the time in all sorts of fields and all reasonable people accept a meaningful and sensible solution, knowing that the courts would not enforce anything else.
But then again unlike L'escargot I'm not a qualified lawyer, I just deal with a lot of contracts and negotiations.
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hxj, I was merely pointing out the possible arguments that the OP could put forward if the dealer digs in his heels and refuses to supply a new car to the correct specification. I certainly wasn't suggesting getting tough from the outset.
The dealer has already said that "they're going to investigate and discuss things amongst themselves overnight ........... ."
If that isn't prevarication I don't know what is. As Galaxy said, what is there to discuss?
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The discussion point seems to be "who asked for the car to be supplied without A/C"-not who signed for it.
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The discussion point seems to be "who asked for the car to be supplied without A/C"-not who signed for it.
I would say the point is "when is the dealer going to replace the car with a new one to the correct specification".
Regarding any "signing for" which may or may not have taken place, I've checked all the order forms and invoices for new cars I've bought going right back to 1965. In all cases I signed the order form but on only one occasion did I sign the invoice. In this instance I merely signed to certify that "I am the purchaser of the motor vehicle detailed above at the price stated". None of the other invoices even had a space for the purchaser to sign.
Edited by L'escargot on 06/08/2008 at 09:57
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Can one be sure that Skoda did not change the specification for this car between the time the car was ordered and supplied?
I know that my Golf MK5 did not come with those extras I'd expected, as the specification was changed during that very same period and I ended up with an SE model without auto wipers, auto headamps, auto dipping rear view mirror etc.
I would never trust, again, any VAG brochure or specification list issued by that company as they seem to change every few weeks and any brochure requested, can never be up to date.
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Can one be sure that Skoda did not change the specification for this car between the time the car was ordered and supplied?
As far as I can see aircon was a factory fitted option at the time of the order. That model is still being advertised online with aircon being a factory fitted option.
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The only thing they're discussing is whether they can delay things beyond their 28 day rule.
Note that the buyer is a business so its contract law and not SOGA that's applicable.
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Aircon was being offered FOC on all fabias during May and June. Although this purchase was for a business, it was processed as a retail sale to take advantage of the 0% finance scheme. I guess because it's on HP the sale was processed by Skoda/ VAG Finance.
I'm not going in all guns blazing, I'll wait and see what they propose first.
Thanks for all your opinions guys, I'll keep you posted.
Oz
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>>Note that the buyer is a business so its contract law and not SOGA that's applicable.
I may be wrong, but I don't think we can be absolutely certain on that point. For an unincorporated association with trustees the contract will be with the trustees or members, and if there is no business then surely we are back to SOGA?
Moreover it has been processed as a private sale with 0% finance, which I guess will have been guaranteed by a trustee. Legal ownership - albeit not beneficial ownership - of the car will be with the trustee.
I don't agree with you, hxj. (I don't agree with Escargot, either, but that's a different matter.)
The aircon was not free in the first place. A car was agreed to be purchased, with aircon, for an agreed price. Everybody knows that list price is a starting point for negotiation - whether cars, photocopiers, bananas or terrier puppies.
Whilst the cash sum was the same, the car supplied did not have the aircon. There is accordingly breach of contract. I imagine a judge would order the simplest solution which would be compensation to the extent that the value of the second hand car was diminished through the absence of aircon. I guess the dealer will offer to retro-fit, which is surely a perfectly acceptable solution for all parties.
Edited by Mapmaker on 06/08/2008 at 11:17
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>>Note that the buyer is a business so its contract law and not SOGA that's applicable.
I was going to make that comment too, but it wouldn't seem to matter here as the the car doesn't match the order whichever way you look at it.
One thing does occur to me - I wonder if the free aircon deal was on private sales only and that someone realised this wasn't really a private sale and so deleted it?
We then get into an argument about whether the sale that was really non-private can be morphed into a private sale for the purposes of taking advantage of free a/c (and even the 0% credit).
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.......... unlike L'escargot I'm not a qualified lawyer ........
A qualified lawyer? How very dare you! How very very dare you!
:-D
Edited by L'escargot on 06/08/2008 at 13:42
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"We then get into an argument about whether the sale that was really non-private can be morphed into a private sale for the purposes of taking advantage of free a/c (and even the 0% credit)."
I hope for Skoda and the dealers' sake this wasn't the case. It was the dealer who suggested I do things this way. The difference between fleet discounts and a private sale was minimal, but the finance saves us several hundred pounds.
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Hi,
I was looking at 3xFabia for business and was offered free Aircon on the Fabia 1.
For 3 cars I wasnot offered fleet deals, so dont believe it should make a difference either way.
Regards
Barry
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Well they've had 24 hours, whats the update??
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Well, I spoke to the garage. They put their hands up, apologized, and offered to replace the car. They did ask if there was any way to do a deal, maybe involving another Skoda I need to buy. Obviously, re-ordering the exact car will take a couple of months as it's a factory order (flat paint to save £350 odd quid) and the factory is closed for August.
I put in a proposal that they offer me 80k miles free servicing (parts and labour) up to and including the first cambelt change. They should bite my arm off as the cost to them should be 7 or 8 hundred quid (at cost) - but saves me £1800 over the three 3 years it'll take us to do 80k. I have two more cars on the fleet approaching 200k miles which will need replacing in the next year, so I have the option of shuffling vehicles round.
I think they realise the work and cost of unravelling this mistake by replacing the car will be a much bigger loss for them. It would involve them buying back the car when the replacement arrives, it would be tricky for them to sell on (no metallic or aircon) and the finance would need to be restarted.
I'll let you know if they bite.
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Sounds like a good result is coming up. Will end up saving both of you quite a bit of money, and will probably generate a fair bit of good will for you from the garage given the potential cost. nice one. Let us know if they go for it...
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it would be tricky for them to sell on (no metallic or aircon)
Presumably it's going to be tricky for you now, but outweighed by the servicing saving?
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we don't sell on, we run them till they die!
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we don't sell on we run them till they die!
Fair enough. What about your earlier comment:
"The Aircon was specified as one of the jobs the car will have to do is sales visits to London, where it can get very hot and sticky when things grind to a halt. Sweaty sales reps are not good for business."
I understand why you want to make things easier, but your business shouldn't have to suffer because of their mistake.
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The issue has now been resolved with the offer of three years/80,000 servicing including the cambelt change at 80k.
This saves us £2100 (ex VAT) in servicing costs. The car will do over 80k easily in this time. Now that summer is over, I shouldn't get too many complaints about having to open the window. Everyone is happy, nobody has lost their job.
On a different note, does anyone have experience of getting the 1.4 TDi VAG engine chipped? I am considering a Tunit box as I am very pleased with one I fitted to my sprinter van. I'm aware of the warranty and insurance issues BTW.
Thanks to everyone for their advice.
Cheers!
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Well all I can say is that I would not, personally, be satisfied with that outcome, if it were for my own personal use as I'd want my car to have the aircon I assumed the car was be supplied with. I would have only accepted a replacement but hey, we dont' want to go over old ground again, do we?
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It may save you £2100 + VAT but it won't COST them that! If you are pleased then that is well and good but they have got off very cheaply on this!
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 11/08/2008 at 18:22
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Can't agree og.
osvaldinho has been offered a generous compromise settlement which he has sensibly accepted. It is my inpression that Skoda dealers, even independent ones, are a cut above the norm in service and human-interface terms.
Air conditioning may be essential in some hot countries, but it is just a complicated, polluting, power-sapping, trouble-causing extra bit of dead weight here. We're lucky if we feel we need it ten days a year. A toy that people now think they need, like cup holders and stupid magic eyes to read speed limit signs and flash them up on a screen you shouldn't be looking at when you are driving.
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Aircon is nice but you soon adapt to living without it. When it packs in (as it invariably does) you wonder why you bought such an expensive to repair option. Also the added extra cost of fuel (between 5 and 10% on average) is rarely considered, but think about it...........
Much nicer to have 8 free services and an expensive cambelt change.
Skoda dealers aren't 100% perfect but by far the nicest bunch I've ever had to deal with.
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Should think the trustees of the charity will be happier having their service costs covered than a replacement car with aircon.
A private owner might think differently.
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Air conditioning may be essential in some hot countries, but it is just a complicated, polluting, power-sapping, trouble-causing extra bit of dead weight here. We're lucky if we feel we need it ten days a year.
Aircon is nice but you soon adapt to living without it.
That very much depends on the driver and how well (or otherwise) their body handles heat.
But sounds like a good result for the OP.
F
Edited by Focus {P} on 11/08/2008 at 19:30
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>>That very much depends on the driver and how well (or otherwise) their body handles heat.
>>
I perspire, sometimes very heavily, in hot or humid conditions. Even so, most 'hot' days in this country are easily kept bearable by ordinary ventilation. I suppose that doesn't apply in slow heavy traffic though. Those are the ten days a year when I might wish I had air conditioning.
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I don't know where you lot live, but I'm glad I don't - it's plenty hot enough for aircon to be invaluable plenty of days of the year here!!
Several times this summer my gf has been following me when we've been heading somewhere in the heat - she arrives practically suffering from heatstroke, I arrive absolutely fine and ready to go biking / walking.
I know it's a personal choice, and Lud and others make quite a good case for leaving aircon off the list, but a couple of times stuck in a car on the motorway in a traffic jam with interior temps reaching 45 degrees plus meant that my only criteria for the car before my current one was it needed aircon. All else was optional.
Still, the world's a nicer and more interesting place for different opinions.
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I do agree that on the occasions it seems to be necessary, air conditioning can seem to be very necessary, and on those occasions one might easily wish one had a car with it. But even now that most new cars have it as standard equipment, it would be quite low on my list of priorities.
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I perspire sometimes very heavily ..........
Too much information!
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-Too much information! -
Sorry gastropod. Will 'sweat like a pig' do?
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Can't agree og. Air conditioning may be essential in some hot countries but it is just a complicated polluting power-sapping trouble-causing extra bit of dead weight here. We're lucky if we feel we need it ten days a year. A toy that people now think they need like cup holders and stupid magic eyes to read speed limit signs and flash them up on a screen you shouldn't be looking at when you are driving.
You leave me speechless with ill-informed comments such as those. I cannot even be bothered to reply further.
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On a different note does anyone have experience of getting the 1.4 TDi VAG engine chipped? I am considering a Tunit box as I am very pleased with one I fitted to my sprinter van. I'm aware of the warranty and insurance issues BTW.
Go to the Briskoda Forum - they have chipped all the diesel Skodas from time to time!
I've had my 80 now for about 11 months and in todays driving environment have not really seen the need to chip it... what are you hoping to get from it?
Edited by b308 on 11/08/2008 at 19:44
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Apparently it costs more in energy to have the windows open, in motion, which may be unusual in London, than to use A/C. Even in the free-flowing NW there are many days, not just the 30C days, when A/C is useful. Especially when it rains. Luddites unite! Cast off the burden of air/con. Embrace dhobi itch. Enhance the sales of Canestan!
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People, even people laying claim to maturity or at least advanced age, are such pathetic infantile wailing kicking demanding spoiled self-regarding self-righteous wimps sometimes that I am beside myself with scornful laughter.
Edited by Lud on 11/08/2008 at 20:36
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Yes you probably have got a new car out of this with air con as it was not your fault. But at the end of the day you got what you wanted and are happy with and that is all that matters.
Well done, a result for once.
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It seems air-con saves on fungal cream for those with a tendency to fung, but there are seemingly other health issues.
tinyurl.com/6x3t2u
To break out in a sweat is probably considered an infringement of rights and assault from the environment this Century though.
Better safe than sorry I suppose.. Does anyone use those little battery pocket fans or wear the caps with one built in?
;)
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I'm quite suprised by the people banging on about how bad air con is!
I've had it on all of my cars except for two early ones and quite honestly I would rather not be without it. It stays on 24/7 and keeps the air at a pleasant temperature and demists effectively in the winter (or even in the summer with a car full of sweaty people after a night out!) It also prevents me having to open a window at circa 70mph to stay cool which makes motorway cruises significantly more relaxing.
Where's the problem? If it does happen to break then you can just opt not to fix it, likewise if you're on the bones of your backside and feel the need to save a (very) small amount of fuel then just switch it off.
As others have pointed out, during the last century there were many cars where a heater was a luxury, but I doubt many of you would like to be without that!
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Thank goodness that some sense prevails here after the nonsense about the 'sins' of aircon spouted above. Talk about dinosaurs!
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/08/2008 at 01:26
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I have had climate control since 2000 on all cars. Would not be without it now.
Current car on auto-aircon has the aircon bit on economy by default and you could have it on all the time. I guess it depends on current weather. Passat when in ECON had air-con off.
Having said all this it was a few months before I realised the air-con on the Passat was failing in 2003... we don't have the weather do we ;-) The bonus of aircon/climate is removing moisture from the cabin.
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Lets put it another way, a Fabia 1 is only around £7000 new, is £2500 discount for no a/c attractive? Not to mention lower fuel bills and no maintenance/repair cost ever for the a/c.
Its a great deal.
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It's a very good deal. Well worth the loss of the air conditioning. But people have got used to it, so they think it's essential. That's all right. Air conditioning has its uses.
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Oh, come on, £2500 for a/c would be a rip-off, but it isn't - I've just been on the Skoda website - its a £510 extra...
In fact in the "offers" section you can have a Fabia 1 with free a/c for £7900 (£200 less than the rrp of £8100)!
Look we know you may have a pet hate for a/c (or at least thats what it seems like) but it has its uses and is a boon in hot weather and when the car needs demisting, so live and let live, eh!
Edited by b308 on 12/08/2008 at 06:11
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Oh come on £2500 for a/c would be a rip-off but it isn't - I've just been on the Skoda website - its a £510 extra... In fact in the "offers" section you can have a Fabia 1 with free a/c for £7900 (£200 less than the rrp of £8100)!
the op got a Fabia delivered where the (free) a/c had inadvertantly got deleted. He got £2,500 worth of servicing as compensation. That IS a great deal.
{Aggressiveness of reply toned down}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/08/2008 at 14:48
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People even people laying claim to maturity or at least advanced age are such pathetic infantile wailing kicking demanding spoiled self-regarding self-righteous wimps sometimes .....
You dissin' me Lud innit :-D
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My wifes two year old Fabia Sport has air conditioning and is the first car we have had which has AC.
How I would have loved it on our trips down to Portugal in the past with the temperatue in the forties in mid Spain. However we managed with the windows open.
My mate who lives in Cyprus has climate control in his Merc and of course they need it a lot more than we do. He swears blind that it has beggared his knees up but still continues to use it. He is over 70 but is adamant that AC isnt good for you.
Perhaps there is something in what he says. I tell him its all the Keo brandy he drinks but he won't have that one...
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....AC isn't good for you...
Plenty of people find it irritating after a while, think it dries the sinuses, something like that.
One answer is to drink plenty of water, which is a good thing to do on a hot day, anyway.
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I certainly think that AC is worthwhile (although everyonme is entitled to their opinion!). Bit I'm not so convinced about automatic climate control, which can cost extra: I'm perfectly capable of setting the temperature and fan speed to what I want, and I don't have to have the furious hissing that climate control usually provides on starting the engine.
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I thought that about climate control too, until I had it. Wouldn't be without it now. On auto all year round. Lovely and comfortable all year round and it never mists up or has that damp smell that non-aircon cars tend to get in winter when the carpets never properly dry out. Mine doesn't hiss either.
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I thought that about climate control too until I had it. Wouldn't be without it now.
I've run mine twice on automatic control, and never again. When you start it, the fan comes on at full speed and stays at that until it gets somewhere near the set temperature. It's manual control for me now.
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>>> I've run mine twice on automatic control and never again. When you start it thefan comes on at full speed
In the settings menu of my Vectra you can adjust the auto blower to start up slowly, medium, or flat out.
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>>On auto all year round. Lovely and comfortable all year round and it nevermists up or has that damp smell that non-aircon cars tend to get in winter when the carpets never properly dry out. Mine doesn't hiss either.
On "Auto", most climate controls leave A/C permenantly on (even in winter). The only time it goes off is when ambient temp drops below 2 or 3 degrees, and that the same with all Aircon units (climate control or manual control) to stop the condenser icing up.
Great if you don't mind paying up to 10% extra on your fuel bill!
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>>Great if you don't mind paying up to 10% extra on your fuel bill!
That old chestnut. A bit like televisions using nearly as much power on standby as when they're on. Maybe true of old ones but my LCD tv uses 0.6w on standby.
You may notice a minor increase in consumption but modern aircon systems are much more efficient these days. And they don't run the aircon constantly, it cuts in and out as required.
Climate systems seem to vary. On my Subaru, if it's colder inside when you first switch on, it puts low speed fan to the screen until warm air is available, then increases the fan speed and directs the air to your feet. When at temp the fan slows down and puts the air to the face vents.
If it's hotter inside than the desired temp, as on a hot day in the sun, full speed fan to the face vents and recirculation selected until the temp is reduced then back to freah air and the fan slows. A very good system, well thought out.
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have to disagree I'm afraid. My experience of air con is; you turn it on - you get cold, you turn it off, you get warm and the windscreen mists up, so you turn it on, repeat ad nauseam. I've observed this on hire cars plus friends cars. My climate control on the other hand has held a steady temperature since the day I bought the car. Apart from setting it to recirculate on odd occasions if behind a smogmobile, I've never touched it. If costs a little to run, that's ok, the fuel consumption is still around 45mpg.
JH
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The issue has now been resolved with the offer of three years/80 000 servicing including the cambelt change at 80k. This saves us £2100 (ex VAT) in servicing costs.
How on earth does it cost £2100+vat to service a Skoda Fabia diesel for 3 years and 80,000 miles?
With long life intervals thats at most 4 services?
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I raised that earlier! It depends whether one means 'Servicing' or running costs! My 307 has cost me under £700 for 4 services and 2 MOTs (4 years old and 46K miles) but I have also had 6 tyres and one set of front discs and pads which has added another £500+ but I am still nowhere near £2100, as one can see.
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Servicing is about £170/200 per service and about £450 for the cambelt one.... perhaps it includes "consumables" such as tyres like someone else said?
Edited by b308 on 13/08/2008 at 08:47
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I am constantly amazed by the ridiculous prices quoted on this forum for servicing cheap and cheerful cars. It really does make me wonder why people them - they are perceived to be cheaper to run but it isn't really the case is it?
The absolute most expensive service on my car is an Inspection 2 at £300! And it's supposed to be an expensive car to run!
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That's the problem with running new cars. People are compelled to service them at the main dealer for warranty reasons.
When a 5-year-old Mondeo costs 1k, why pay more?
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Hmm
Running aircon cost me 3 mpg or 5%.. tested over 1,000s of miles.
As for servicing .. £120, £240 etc..
Anyone who buys a car and does not investigate servciing costs first is very rich or does not care. To complain afetrwards is... stooopid...
It's like buying a big car or a 4x4 in the past two years: the writing was on the wall in 2 metre high letters...saying: fuel costs going up, Car tax is based on CO2 and is going up.
Ditto people who complain about insurance costs, or tyres or exhausts..
But hey, I make money by selling my old rubbish on ebay to people who could buy it new for less so why should I complain..
(I hasten to add it's just old PC bits and not a living .. in case mr taxman reads this:-)
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That's the problem with running new cars. People are compelled to service them at the main dealer for warranty reasons.
True but not relevant to my point - mine is serviced at a main dealer.
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Entirely agree with MichaelR.
My Fabia needed a new throttle body last year,. The repair and part ended up costing £700. I questioned this high cost at the main dealer with the service manager and his reply was, "It's probably an Audi part."
So it should cost me more to repair?
Skoda Auto customer services basically just shrugged their shoulders when I queried the cost and declined to assist financially with the repair. They were unable to understand my point that a modest car like a Fabia should not cost the same to service or repair as a more 'premium' make of car.
I am pleased the op got what he wanted. Skoda customer services attitude was very reminiscient of that big feller in the adverts for the poor value bank...
No more Skodas for me though, might as well have an Audi, probably.
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I just had the first of my 8 free services, so have recouped £179 so far. I can't wait to see the look on their face when they swallow their £379 bill for the 80k cambelt change.
Nobody has complained about the lack of aircon since the summer.
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Nobody has complained about the lack of aircon since the summer.
Summer? Have we had one then?
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I can't wait to see the look on their face when they swallow their £379 bill for the 80k cambelt change.
Let's hope the dealership still exists by then!
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Yes I agree: aircon was part of the contract as on the invoice as well as an incentive for you to buy. I think you should sue if Skoda play hard ball. After all they have their precious image to protect (always boasting about their JD Power reports) so threaten to do this, drag in trading standards and mention that you will be phoning the press, points of view etc. Especially since this offer was emblazoned all over the papers not so long ago.
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Yes I agree
Mattbod: You agree with what?
[note that "ozvaldinho" is just updating us on the servicing "compensation" deal he agreed to in this old thread of his].
Edited by jbif on 14/11/2008 at 16:53
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I agree that if a dealer includes an item of specification in the contract of sale and then the dealer does not supply then the matter should be pursued. These old threads do pop back into contention again occasionally and I fail to notice they are not current. I wanted the thread placed under the comment that I was agreeing to, sometimes the site does that but this time it was bunged at the end out of context. Sorry for the confusion.
Edited by Mattbod on 14/11/2008 at 23:06
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