A 4x4 has been branded 'inherently dangerous' by a coroner.
The comment came at an inquest into the deaths of two women who were killed when their Japanese-made Mitsubishi Delica 4x4 crashed into the central reservation of the M6.
The Kendal hearing was told the vehicle was designed for inner-city use and not motorways.
If this is really true how did this vehicle get imported and released for use? I was not aware that there are or could be rules to say that vehicles are urban use only. Common sense sugests that going up a motorway in a G-Whiz or similar small/slow vehicle might not be too clever but it isn't illegal.
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Errr, it's a van, based on a Shogun chassis. As such it is inherently more safe than the majority of small vans, provided you don't drive it like an idiot.
And the idea that a 2+ litre 4x4 is now seen as an inner-city car shows just how bonkers the world has become.
Anyone know what speed it was being driven at?
I've often thought that these van-based MPVs should be limited to 60mph on motorways -- if the vehicle they are based on is then why not?
Edited by jase1 on 02/08/2008 at 11:02
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To part quote from the original article - apparently from the Daily Mail? tinyurl.com/69lyd8
"'.............My wife put on the brakes and veered from left to right. The vehicle could not handle the manoeuvre.'
Crash investigator PC Mark Dempster said that because of its high centre of gravity, the Delica is unstable and unsuitable for motorway use.
He said: 'It is an inner-city vehicle.'
Mr Smith recorded an accidental death verdict and said he would tell the Department of Transport that the vehicle is 'inherently dangerous'. ....................."
Surely the high centre of gravity is no different from the Shogun?
I just wonder if there is some selective reporting going on here.
Having looked at this page I realise that I had forgotten how dreadful the Mail is!!!!!!
pmh
Edited by pmh on 02/08/2008 at 11:24
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I was going post that link but I thought there was a policy of not linking to other paper's articles. Never mind - it looks as though the coroner may have exceeded his brief somewhat
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It's a narrow , tall van with raised to groung clearance to go with it's 4x4 image. You only have to look at one to realise it would be unstable.
Take a look at the images in HJ's car by car breakdown, it looks like it's going to fall over whilst stationary.
Edited by krs one on 02/08/2008 at 11:33
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I just wonder if there is some selective reporting going on here.>>
pmh,
How can that be? Unless someone stood up at the inquest and argued this car is safe at motorway speeds.
That it's not is only the opinion of the traffic polis and the coroner.
It is not the opinion of the Daily Mail - or the The Daily Telegraph which carried the same story.
Don't shoot the messenger.
Edited by ifithelps on 02/08/2008 at 11:40
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> I just wonder if there is some selective reporting going on here.>>
pmh,
How can that be?
Am I not allowed to wonder?
As far as I am aware the Mail does not have exclusive rights to telling the whole story.
As for linking to the Mail I cannot believe that the Telegraph has any worries on losing intellectual readership in that direction.
pmh
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I'm not surprised Delicias are unstable. I suppose the thing is people should be aware of the limitations of the vehicle they're driving, in the way that 3-wheeler drivers used to be. Likewise, drivers of the old VW Beetles knew the car would swap ends quite easily, or if you drive a Land Rover you know that steering is very imprecise around the straight-ahead position.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 02/08/2008 at 12:19
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"I was not aware that there are or could be rules to say that vehicles are urban use only."
You could always combine it with a VW Golf with DPF which should not be used in an urban area. Perhaps the manufacturers could do a package deal, and provide edge-of-town swap-points.
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My understanding is that Mitsubishi has never officially imported the Delica into the UK and has no intentions of doing so.
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Am I not allowed to wonder? As far as I am aware the Mail does not have exclusive rights to telling the whole story.
pmh,
Of course you are allowed to wonder, but having been to dozens of road traffic collision inquests, I can tell you no one would have spoken on behalf of the manufacturer.
They are not a witness, they are irrelevant for the narrow purpose of the inquest.
Don't quite understand the second part of your post, but I can tell you neither the Mail nor Telegraph would have had a reporter at the inquest.
The story, like so many in the nationals, comes from either a freelance, an agency, or it's lifted from the local paper which will cover most inquests on its patch as a matter of course.
I'm not seeking to make any point/judgment about that. It's just a matter of fact.
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This sounds like "sensational" reporting for the sake of a story without much attention and care to the facts in what was an obviously tragic accident. As far as the vehicle is concerned, no one has said exactly which one of the twenty or so variants of the Delica it was. Also was it modified in any way, as many of these are in Japan, including suspension lifting and non standard wheels etc. I have driven certain standard versions of the Delica on Motorways in the UK and can state that they feel at least as safe and stable as most cars of their age. I wonder if the newsparer reporters would care to enlighten us with some facts before tying to scare people or would that not sell newspapers?
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More to the point, was the drivers driving style perhaps rough and jerky? I mean she might have panicked 'throwing' the steering wheel from side to side instead of being smooth, thus upsetting the balance badly enough to tip it onto it's side.
I'm pretty certain that such a car would not respond well to being driven in such a manner.
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I think that what is being reported is the opinion of the copper who attended. I doubt he's a trained chassis engineer. OTOH I have some sympathy for the opinion because the high centre of gravity of many 4x4's can make them a bit of a handful at times.
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Indeed. And things like an underinflated tyre or a zigzag swerve at the exact wrong resonant rhythm - roll oversteer in 40s and 50s American cars comes vividly to mind - or a heavy load can make some of them truly dangerous. And if this thing is quite small, very tall and narrow with slab sides - I have no idea what it looks like - it's been a bit windy recently too...
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>>roll oversteer in 40s and 50s American cars comes vividly to mind
>>
Vivid in my mind is a well known "European modern vehicle" that did not perform in the "Moose test" in 1997.
(A report from my friend in Maine that Moose are a "bigger" problem on the roads there this year. They are taking to the highways to get away from a greater than normal midge swarms)
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This sounds like "sensational" reporting for the sake of a story >>
Retrobob,
It's not sensational reporting, it's reporting what the polis and the coroner said.
Others can judge if it is sensational or not.
Coroners, like judges, are in a position where they can say things that can be reported under what the law calls qualified privilege that the rest of us cannot.
The best of them use that power sparingly, so that when they do say something, people take notice.
That is what has happened here.
You can rest assured that coroner has presided over dozens of fatal road collisions in which, in his judgment, the make of vehicle is irrelevant, so he has said nothing about it.
In this case, he feels differently and has spoken out.
Fair play to him, he's only doing the job we pay him to do.
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ifithelps
It would appear that you seem to know more about this particular inquest/accident than just commentiing on the original posts - can you please declare your hand?
"You can rest assured that coroner has presided over dozens of fatal road collisions in which, in his judgment, the make of vehicle is irrelevant, so he has said nothing about it.
In this case, he feels differently and has spoken out.
Fair play to him, he's only doing the job we pay him to do."
From the other contributor comments, I can see I am not alone in viewing the press coverage with some scepticism.
There is a history of other 4x4s behaving unpredictably in (not very) high speed manoeuvers. For example nobody ever deemed the Mk1 Range Rover as being only suitable for inner city use, despite some very high profile fatal accidents.
If there is some special failing of the Mit Delica we would all be pleased to know. This vehicle was presumably more than 10 years old and the handling could have been compromised by poor maintenance and or worn suspension components. Driver experience/capability would have also been an element and nobody has commented on that.
pmh
Edited by Pugugly on 03/08/2008 at 01:00
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pmh,
You seem to think the press coverage drives the inquest, when it is the other way around.
All I am saying is that coroners do a lot of fatal road accident inquests and they will usually put the cause down to pilot error, a badly laid out junction, a blow out, whatever.
In this case, the coroner has blamed the make of vehicle.
This is unusual, so it has made national news.
That's it, there's no rabbit away or conspiracy theory - it's just the nature of news.
If the coroner is right or not is a separate argument.
He has the benefit of hearing the inquest, reading all the papers, etc, but I have no idea if he has come to the right or wrong conclusion.
All I would say is the chances are he is experienced in these matters and it is unlikely he would have spoken out unless he felt strongly about the case.
That suggests - no more - to me there is something in what he said.
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The message actually fits with evidence that that ALL 4x4s are more likely to roll in an accident.
Perhaps we now know my Mitsubishi have never imported them.
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A 4x4 has been branded 'inherently dangerous' by a coroner. The comment came at an inquest into the deaths of two women who were killed when their Japanese-made Mitsubishi Delica 4x4 crashed into the central reservation of the M6. The Kendal hearing was told the vehicle was designed for inner-city use and not motorways. If this is really true how did this vehicle get imported and released for use? I was not aware that there are or could be rules to say that vehicles are urban use only. Common sense sugests that going up a motorway in a G-Whiz or similar small/slow vehicle might not be too clever but it isn't illegal.
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Common sense sugests that going up a motorway in a G-Whiz or similar small/slow vehicle might not be too clever but it isn't illegal.
Common sense would mean someone would not reply to a 6 year old post - but it happens ;-)
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Common sense would mean someone would not reply to a 6 year old post - but it happens ;-)
So far as I can tell the 'reply' consists of a quote from the OP without nay new commentary.
Either Jose X was bamboozled by this site's quote facility (which can be less than intuitive) or there's a bot at work.
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In a similar vein this would also make motorcycles unsuitable. If you stop, forget to put you feet down you will fal over.
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Welcome to the forum, Jose - would you like to tell us how if at all we can help? You've simply quoted the original post, which is six years old and about a car which isn't around any more.
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You've simply quoted the original post, which is six years old and about a car which isn't around any more.
There is one still living up our street. But as with most 4 x 4 SUV's you have to ask why. It has probably never been off road (unless you count supermarket car parks as off road) and normally carries just the driver and one child.
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The Range Rover Classic (1970-94) was a popular vehicle used by traffic police on many motorways. However a top gear demonstration in the 90's showed how easy it was to flip it over if sharp steering inputs were made at speed. As others have said its often how a vehicle is driven that determines its behaviour (1980's 911's wet roundabout too much power= exceeds the drivers talent = spin and crash)
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