I am looking for further advice and comment. I have read Doddy?s topic (16/6/02) and mine is practically the same, only double. I gave up pursuit the first time around, but this time I really do want to pursue further.
I own a 1997 (?R? reg.) 306 DT and have owned it for less than 2 years. I bought it from an independent garage with a 3-month warranty included. The same garage has regularly serviced it. I also check the oil and coolant etc. on a regular basis.
In September 2001, whilst on the A1 motorway, a con rod shot through the side of the engine. The car had only done 45,000 miles. Neither the garage or Peugeot accepted any liability, the latter stating the car was ?too old?. The car was subsequently repaired at own cost. The garage replaced the engine with a second-hand one, as I could not afford a brand new one. I was told that the replacement engine had done less mileage than my own.
Two days ago, it happened again!!!(10 months on from the first incident). A con rod shot though the side of the engine whilst on the M4 motorway. I could not believe it. This is so dangerous. I had my 3-year-old daughter in the back and my husband and friend were also travelling with me. We could have all been killed!!! Not too mention the other vehicles that could have been involved in this and the previous incident. The speedo clock stated it had done 57,000 miles.
The garage has confirmed the damage to be in the exact same area of the engine as the previous. They can only replace the engine (second-hand again) at a slightly reduced cost.
I consider I have been ripped off. Surely someone should admit responsibility to this? What scares me is the fact that I have escaped twice from this danger and still live to tell the story!!! It seems evident to me that there really is a fault with these engines. Can anyone offer me any advice as to how I could pursue this? I would also be very interested to hear from others that have suffered similar experiences as this.
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The problem as I see it is one of finance. To pursue this problem it will cost you plenty of money. Are you a member of a motoring organisation? If so see if you can get their financial backing to pursue the matter. The less costly option is to give this problem a wider audience. Try writing to consumer and motoring programs on national radio and TV.
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LGN3, do you happen to have legal expenses cover as an element of your household insurance (contents or structure) cover? If you do you may have be able to start legal proceedings although against whom and for exactly what I can't really see. If you don't have such cover you could ask for it to be added to your policy and you might be able to commence legal action 90 days later. That is how long have to wait for the cover to be activated and, depending on who you are insured with it could be longer. There is also, sometimes, legal expenses cover on your car policy but I think that may be just for speeding and other motoring offences. Worth asking a few questions and good luck anyway. Please keep the Back Room posted!
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Hi its me again.
My 'Polly' Peugeot is now for sale!!!!!!!!
LGN3,
We feel so sorry for you, and if we can be of any help to you in any way (except financially!!!!), please do not hesitate to contact us by email and we will share evidence etc. I have got numerous photos of our old engine showing damage to engine and gearbox.
DODDY
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Me AGAIN......
Just returned from a another Peugeot garage (!) to try and get my radio code for the radio before it is sold. Manager of the garage says he has NEVER heard of a 306TD blowing up like ours....!......!!!!!! Can you believe it?
I am all up for fighting Peugeot if I can get more people behine me who have had a similar problem. I've got a bit of legal knowledge and can get more from Legal friends of mine and helplines etc....
Wait to hear
DODDY
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Try our local radio consumer champion- Stephen Rhodes 08459 455555 between 10am 1pm.BBC 3 Counties, it doesn't matter if you are out of area, his team are VERY helpful & give first class, fair advice.
95.5 or 103.8 FM or 630 MW listen in & give them a try, won't cost anything to try.
Mark
PS Not the same problem, yet, but now these Pug HDi powered cars & vans are being de-fleeted, quite a few appear to have noisey 'top end' rattle. Wrong oil, low oil, extended service intervals, or a combination of all three?
Still, nothing that money won't put right,won't be the first owner/fleet manager, though, will it?!!
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You would have to go after Peugeot themselves. Even then, you are after proving that there is a potentially dangerous, and known, fault.
A second-hand, un-guaranteed engine taken from a car of unknown history has shot a rod. - you`re never going to get any money back for that. (I am assuming that the fitting garage wasn't daft enough to offer a warranty ?).
Probably best way is if you can make Peugeot worry about the amount of negative publicity they`re going to get if you start campaigning, so worried that they compensate you financially or replace the engine to make you go away.
Although then they might worry about setting a precedent.
But I reckon that`s about the only way with any likelihood of success, but I don`t fancy your chances.
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Mark: With the forthcoming HJ coverage of this topic in his DTel column, Peugeot might reconsider their attitude to these failures. Especially if the article results in previous unreported cases coming forward. These may be people who were fobbed off by garages/Peugeot or who never complained because they did not realise that there might be a generic problem.
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Good point.
And certainly if a few of them get together it will have a much stronger impact.
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It's interesting to compare Peugeot's attitude, as Doddy found for example, with the altogether different attitude of BMW where their engines were suffering premature bore wear (as discussed elsewhere on this forum).
I think this adds even more credence to the argument for buying a nearly-new 'quality' car rather than a brand new mid-price car.
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No harm in posting widely on the web to find out if anyone else feels the same has suffered the same.
If you find enough people a group action might be possible via a solicitor who has handled these before.
Such a course of action would certainly be newsworthy with the effect of flushing out more who have had engines go the same way.
just a thought
as ever
Mark
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Hello, it is me again. Thanks everyone for all of your advice. I am still gathering my head together as to which route to take. I still feel strongly about taking the matter to Peugeot.
Doddy, thanks for your offer of help. I am all for going to Peugeot with a group of people that have experienced the same. Please feel free to e-mail me at lgn3johnson@yahoo.com.
HJ, when is the article in your column coming out?
Vansboy, I do live in Herts, so the programme on 3 Counties radio might be worth a call, thanks.
The latest so far: I contacted the CAB, Trading Standards & the Legal Helpline of my Breakdown Recovery service. The advice they gave me sways towards claiming against the garage. I am not satisfied with this, as I see it as a manufacturing problem with Peugeot. It is like buying a well known brand of baked beans from a supermarket and finding a foreign object in the tin. Why is it the supermarket's fault? OK they sold it, but they did not know that there was a problem inside the tin. The problem is that of manufacture. I was further advised that I could only claim against Peugeot if there was an injury resulting from the incident.
As these incidents are not uncommon, maybe there will be at some point and perhaps even fatalities.
I got my car back yesterday, repaired with a recon engine, an 'M' reg. that came out of a Citroen. Incidentally, the engine that 'blew' 5 days ago, came out of an 'R' reg. Peugeot 306DT, the exact same model as mine. This only strengthens my view that there is without doubt, a fault with the '97/'98 model of these engines. Despite the latest engine being from a different year, I still intend to dispose of the car, as I have no confidence in it whatsoever.
As for the garage, they have done their best to keep the cost down, as low as possible. They even telephoned Peugeot, but Peugeot flatly refused to speak to them due to the fact that they were an independent garage. Peugeot told them to go to a Peugeot dealer!!!
I will keep you posted on any developments. I have taken photos of the engine (in this latest incident).
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My own experience with Peugeot customer service (see thread dated 20 July 'Peugeot 406 Diesel Estate Disk Brakes' is such that I'd never buy another Peugeot. Arrogant and incompetent are the words that immediately come to mind.
I bought a Peugeot on its reputation for producing robust, reliable cars that could take a lot of punishment - next time I'll buy Japanese.
I hope that you get satisfaction from Peugeot.
Brian
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LGN3 - I am interested to see that your blown R-reg engine has been replaced with one from an M-reg. Give this engine a chance, you may find it is more driver-friendly. For one thing it was not intended to have a cat-converter after it, and because of that you may find it gives more response. I know which one I would prefer.
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Mine was a '98 S-reg. Incidentally, the con-rod snapped about 1" below the little end, the rest made 5 holes in the block and sump. The replacement engine was a bit newer, but was just as noisy.
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DODDY - pls e-mail me on the address above, or provide me with your e-mail details on a thread.
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I posted earlier about my Citroen ZX which I have owned from new
same engine same event, conrod smashing engine to pieces. I note that the article is coming out in august, the feedback will be interesting. I initially wrote to Citroen who thanked me for giving them the opportunity to decline to be of assistance. On finding out about other incidences I have written to the MD of Citroen UK who has asked his customer services manager to look into it, I am currently supplying them with full service breakdown and hope some good will come of it, however I really do not hold out much hope.
I have written to Trading standards, BBC Watchdog and many other organizations, If everyone who has had this problem does the same we may get somewhere! This is a potentially very dangerous fault and should be investigated. My car is a 97 R reg 1.9TD I have had to put a second hand engine in which is far from satisfactory when I had a low mileage car of known history. Any one who wants to supply information of other faults I would be grateful of, as I am at the moment quite determined to try and get to the bottom of this.
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Hi Doddy again
Myself and LGN3 have been in touch via email about our Peugeots, so perhaps you can leave your email on this thread and we can get in touch with you?
I, too have just recently written to BBC Watchdog and still awaiting for a reply...
I think that group force with Peugeot and Citroen is going to be the only answer to these problems, so anyone else out there who has had similar problems with Pugs or Citroens, leave your email address and either myself or LGN3 will be in touch.....
WATCH THIS SPACE............
Take care all
DODDY
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HJ,
I have purchased the DT last Saturday and this Saturday but nothing about Peugeots! Any updates?
Thanks
DODDY
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Very depressing to see how Peugeot treated repeated engine failures. I wonder if other owners with engines of same age could take steps to clear oilways so problem does not occur. I read somewhere about completely synthetic oils being good at this.
Perhaps Peugeot have issued advisory notes to their own garages by now?
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lgn3 and others who've had this problem, have you never looked at any of the french motoring forums. i'd never heard of this problem until i read your thread and so went to yahoo.fr and typed in peugeot dt problème and it came up straight away. apparently motors built between 97-99 blow up. those affected are trying to get together because peugeot won't pay (like renault with the 1.9td except that renault has had to change because of a huge campaign in france because there have been so many motor breakages - type scenic-renault.com and you'll find the site - there are some real horror stories of how renault treated their customers).
anyway, try these addresses :
213.41.77.170/forum/groupeliste.asp?messageID=2801...8
213.41.77.170/forum/titres.asp?catID=12
good luck and let us know how it goes
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Thanks I will check out those sites.
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I was just about to get myself a '97 306 DT.
No matter about not getting one anymore, I don't think i'll go near one incase i get hit by the odd low flying conrod
Maybe this is one of the DT's 'characteristics'?!! ("They all do it, sir")
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It happens with Alfa Romeo too!!
Spider Twinspark 1998. Full MainAgent servicing from new,then-Bang Out goes No 4 Bigend at 40K miles.
Alfa/Fiat do not want to know.
Synthetic Oil every 12K miles??? Lets go back to more frequent services with Multygrade Oil.
Alfa marie, mariepelliott@hotmail.com
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They probably do 'all do it' but as it isn't a hot selling point it doesn't feature in the sales literature!
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This must be going on all over Europe, I have found many examples, thanks for the info. perhaps our MEPs would be the people to contact! The time must be coming for Citroen and Peugeot to at least make a statement.
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don't kid yourself hj. as you know peugeot (along with renault)are the only mass manufacturer's having any current commercial success and they're not going to risk their reputations by admitting to a problem. they're going to try to suffocate it by not replying. after all, even if there are a lot of cases they're all treated on an individual basis. it took 4 years for renault to finally do something about their 1.9td problem even
after :
full blown articles in the french motoring magazines
the lead story on the french tv news at 8 pm recently
an internet association ("collectif") of affected owners (30uk pounds joining fee) represented by one of the foremost french lawyers to present a unified front
even after all that, renault hasn't officially recalled the affected vehicles but issued an instruction to its garages to do the modification as and when required at renault's charge. all those poor customers who paid for the repairs have to claim from renault - the refund isn't automatic. they'll do anything to minimize the publicity damage and the commercial damage.
peugeot probably have a smaller problem so think they can get away with it.
without a properly organised campaign i can't see peugeot buckling but i'd like to be wrong
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I also have a R Reg 306DT brought new from Peugeot. The engine exploded also damaging radiator and starter motor at 51,500 miles. Peugeot HO, despite many letters refused any replacement costs.
Our Peugeot garage fitted a factory engine, which also failed after 1792 miles. Peugeot replaced this engine free of charge, but refused to discuss the matter further. HJ published my letter 23/03/02 and was preceeded by a similar letter 9/03/02 from PD of Barnstable. How about forming a busted engine club?
We need to get this issue to a wider group of owners.
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With a gallon of oil being dumped on the road when this happens I would have thought it would be a certain safety issue.
This is without the engine locking up as the conrod wedges into the block or starter. I can imagine you may not live to find out what happened!
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It it got on Watchdog and could be made a safety relate fault, the Peugeot would be forced to do something about it. >> HJ
>>
It is a shame that the D.Tel could only give a couple of column inches to this problem on HJ's page and gave it a title which did not really do the problem justice. A quarter or eighth page dedicated special article bringing together all these reported cases would probably get a better response from Peugeot.
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Michael2, I am all for this. You can contact me on lgn3johnson@yahoo.com.
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I have had similar response from Citroen with my ZX DHY engine.
I think we should get together as many owners who have suffered this fate as possible and write individually and collectively to Watchdog and the department of transport. It could be, judging by the mileage that this appears to be happening at, there will be a lot more to come, as it seems to mainly affect 306's and ZX's, I do not imagine these are much used as fleet cars, and will probably be doing much lower mileages. Looking at the French sites it appears to affect all cars made after the 4-97 using the DHY engine. I have replaced mine with a 96 DHY engine, I notice it has the same emission equipment and fuel pump as the 97 original engine that was fitted. It must be due to a manufacturing change or fault. And why does it not affect any other series engine than the DHY? As far as I understand the DHX (1.9td same year series) is essentially the same engine, using presumably the same components but unaffected by this problem.
david.kelly8@ntlworld.com
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hello, i've found a couple of other french sites.
www.merci-peugeot.fr.st/
a catalogue of disasters
www.forum-auto.com/sqlforum/section1/sujet39313.htm
see the messages from double chevron and especially that dated 27.08.02 at 17.20.57 - very informitive and he seems to have inside knowledge. he says that the conrod problem is well known within peugeot. with a name like double chevron i can only assume it's someone who works for citroën and so has inside information (seeing the detailed info he has).
i must ask my german, spanish and italian work colleagues to do a quick search - if i get anything i'll let you know; or maybe if someone on this forum knows those languages well enough...
regards
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Thanks Mike, I will check these sites out too. I was able to translate most of the other site you gave & bearing in mind I don't speak french, that is pretty good going. For all of those who don't know how to translate - I typed in "321 Auto" in Google's search engine & when the site options come up, you are given the option to translate. I found that the last few threads on that site did not translate though.
Dave, Marcus & Doddy - I am still on the case, but have been too busy to contact you. Will do in near future.
It is more than obvious to me that this is a well known problem & any denial of knowledge from Peugeot is a pack of lies.
"The fright of your life." !!!
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Thought you may be interested to know that I am currently handling a claim from a customer with the same defect. We are preparing to tackle Peugeot and would appreciate any support that others may be able to give.
Neil C - MF Admin Services Ltd
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hi: i'm italian, and i got twice break for piston rod: you can see also a french website who speak about thousand similar cases.
1900 dhy engine was mounted on peugeot 306 and xsara 1900 TD ... and onto other models???.
the builder is the french company P.S.A. (Peugeot and Citroen).
On peugeot 306 last february 13 2002, in an italian television show named "mi manda raitre" the Peugeot speaker says that Peugeot Italia knews about 70 (seventy) customers with this problem on theyr 306, but i don't know of how many are in europe.
see also www .merci-peugeot.fr.st (in french, sorry), or my blog
www.graziecitroen.splinder.com.(in italian for the moment)
Nice to have meet you ;-)
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I wonder if Peugeot changed their supplier of con-rods at the time that faults occurred? Did they go to China or somewhere like that for them?
Con-rods are highly stressed and if there are fissures, or impurities in the metal, such weaknesses can spread and result in failure.
I wonder what the broken surfaces looked like? What about the one that HJ referred to seeing? Was it inspected?
Even if the evidence is destroyed on the lower part of the rod due to it going through the wall of the block, the piston end part could still be undamaged enough to show cause.
See if you can find out if the con-rod supply was changed and then changed again after the faults were discovered.
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I have some pictures of this type of failure in the HJ Photo gallery, link below..
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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This engine is/was also fitted to a lot of Citroens but I've not heard of any problems with those cars. Is this a Peugeot issue only?
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Hi All
I've just found this forum having had my 1999 Pug 306 Engine blow up this afternoon. As you have all said, it's a Turbo Diesel with a number starting DHY600... No.4 Con-Rod through the block and sump. Car just approaching 60,000 miles, doing 70mpg on the M5 at the time :-(
Has anyone had any joy with pursuing Peugeot for what is most certainly a design or manufacturing fault??
I'm going to try and find an older engine to re-build and fit. I also have a 1995 306TD (my car, the '99 is my wife's) which has done 140,000 miles and that engine is nothing short of fantastic!!
Many thanks to those who set up this forum ...
Best wishes,
Simon
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Mine showed a crystallized fracture half way across. The rest looked like it had bent and then snapped.
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My R reg 306dt died last week, still waiting for the insurance assessment, from reading your message and the various replies it would seem that I have the same problem. Was there an outcome? If so what was it, every little helps. Cheers
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I've had the same experience. My car had done 66,000 miles. It happened just before last Christmas while I was driving north on the A1(M) near Durham. I had a second hand engine fitted by the garage from where I bought the car. Luckily the car came with a 12,000 mile/12 months warranty which covered me up to £500. I also have Parts & Labour cover with the AA which also contributed £475, so all it cost me for the repair was inconvenience. However, I lost confidence in the car, so I part-ex'd it for a Megane dTi. I estimate that I've lost £1000 on the deal, plus the cost of taking out a new loan.
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