Will be motoring over to Passendale and Agincourt in September.
tinyurl.com/6fx4po
tinyurl.com/5525ur
tinyurl.com/5hpkat
Particularly want to see the Passchendaele battlefield as `Old Brown` used to tell us kids (in the late 50`s) horror stories of him having `gone over the top` there.
There`s a Museum at Agincourt too
tinyurl.com/5bo38n
Also a return to Albert and the surrounding area, perhaps walking up Wood lane, see map.
tinyurl.com/5gco7o
Will be going in the van and coming back laden, as usual ;)
Pushing it, at the limits, with a load on, it gets low 60`s
Anyone else covered these areas?
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Yes - too much to detail here (I am considering a post-retirement career in small scale bespoke Battlefield Tours) I would recommend some books.
Fatal Avenue - Richard Holmes - this book will give you a huge historical perspective all the way from the Battle of Cercy through to Normandy, not only will you get the historical perspective and the remarkable achievements of various British Armies over the centuries, it will give you a modern guide (including modern day roads that you will need to use to find famous and not so famous battles), this is a captivating book and written in Holmes' uniquely academic but readable styles.
Before Endeavours Fade - Rose Coombs - Amongst those that "know" (including Holmes) this is the bible for WW1 followers. It is fully pictorial and gives you Michelin map based pre-planned tours.
Must do visits:-
Tyne Cott Cemetry.
Thiepvel Memorial to the missing.
Mametz Wood (were the Welsh Division were slaughtered and reduced a colleague to tears when we visited in 2005 - as Holmes says in his book, I defy anyone to go there and not be moved by the Welsh Dragon sculpture grasping barbed wire in its claw.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Ddraig_Goch
Mons - were the tiny British professional Army fought the German War machine to a halt and the first and last shots of Britain's war were fired within a few yards of each other,four years and worlds apart.
Ypres - The increasingly popular sounding of the last post at the Menin gate.
Le Cateau - where the retreating BEF stood and fought the Germans (again to a standstill) and in the face of a shower of steel and desperate heroics of the Royal Field and Horse Artillery, probably here, arguably, altered the eventual outcome of the war and the history of 20th Centuary Europe.
I could go on for hours.
I can recommend B&Bs in Paschendale and the Somme.
PS
Just remembered another one - I'll have to double check the name of the village outtside Mons, where the Cheshires were all but demolished and the last Cavalry charge ever by the British Army - The Cheshires - contrary to Standing Orders - had their Colours with them and they almost lost them to the Germans. They were hidden by local in an attic and recovered after the war. I was lucky enough to go there with Richard Holmes and a group - he replicated the charge in his book "Riding the Retreat" another very good read.
Edited by Pugugly on 26/07/2008 at 23:37
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Cheers Pugugly. We are fixed up with accommodation.
I`m currently reading `Tommy-The British Soldier On The Western Front`- Richard Holmes and have just read `11th Month 11th Day 11th Hour` - Joseph E. Persico.
Thanks for the information.
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ive promised myself i would visit the battlfields of the great war for ages now, i know you can do a bus tour (as advertised) but i would like to do it in the car, ferry must be cheaper than the tunnel? from the midlands to an east coat ferry port then on to Ostend i think? ive not worked it out yet ..any back roomers got any ideas...thanks ...zoo
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I always use the tunnel (use your Tesco vouchers and it can be cheap).
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£64 with Sea France.. I can`t afford the tunnel ;)
(and i`m scared of being under the sea;)
Edited by oilrag on 26/07/2008 at 21:15
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Coming from a crab background I don't trust navy types.
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If I forget to book in advance for the tunnel (which can be quite cheap if you do) I just turn up at Dover and hang about for a sort of standby ticket from whichever carrier will sell me one. Never had to wait more than 1.5 hrs. and have paid as little as £20 if it's a quiet time.
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"Fatal Avenue - Richard Holmes - this book"
I`m having flashbacks now to case fatalities and the Mental Heath Act Manual-Richard Jones..
Zookeeper, we drive from Yorkshire, always cross on Sea France, Dover Calais at £60 ish, meal on the ferry, then stay overnight in Calais at around 57 euros.
If you look up Campanile, they have a great interactive map, booking site. I spend an hour or two at home with the Sat Nav, entering all the coordinates needed for Hotels and sites of interest before setting off.
Although I could really navigate much of main route Europe from memory after all these years, I find as the only driver (out of UK) it allows me to relax more, in particular at night.
Its a pretty cheap trip really, five nights away this time and Hotels and ferry at around £320. Being cheap skates, we eat in Calais Supermarkets and make packed lunches every morning..
I would recommend you just go for it. Its a lot easier and cheaper than driving up to the Scottish highland and staying in some of the grim *"have-ye-nai-got-80-pounds-laddie-och-tha-noo-that`s per-person", hotels in Fortwilliam for example.
* ;);)
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thanks oilrag, would it be cheaper to go out of season? or is november more seasonish under the circumstances?
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Cheaper out of season of course, weather can be a factor in Northern France and Belgium, not much fun in the rain - believe me. September or October is the latest I'd go.
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The Somme is a beautiful place in its own right, especially coming in from the direction of Saint-Valery-sur-Somme on the coast, I really want to spend more time in that area. Although not a great fan of Sebastian Faulks' Birdsong - the early chapters paint an enchanting picture of the area - an area is still largely unchanged.
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the menin gate on november 11 is my target
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Zookeeper, Late September, very early October, perhaps. Its also very quiet around mid May.
If you go too late you will also find some museums closed and of course the short daylight curtails things.
Pugugly, Yep agree about the Somme. In earlier times just blasted through all these places heading south, but we are now looking forward to a more thorough exploration, in subsequent trips.
The only thing I find a chore is the 270 miles to Dover....
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Zookeeper
Sorry, our posts overlapped i think ;)
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I travelled up to Wales coming back from my last trip on the bike - Very tiring trip and the weather in Wales was horrendous, looking back I should have overnighted at home.
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I once came home from Koblenz in April on a Yamaha SR 500 (snow on hills in Germany) in one go, 600 miles and was almost destroyed by it.
Since then, we always overnight in Calais and try to get around the M25 around lunchtime.
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Ypres - The increasingly popular sounding of the last post at the Menin gate
Don't miss this, its the best memorial to WW1 other than Verdun....
Its a pity than over here we can't seem to do anything to remind our youngsters of the sacrifices of our elders, they could do with it....
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I can second the recommendation for the Rose Coombes book. Sadly she died a few years ago now, and with her a mine of knowledge and insight. For further background reading see almost anything by Lyn McDonald and more specifically Battlefields of the First World War by Tony and Valmai Holt who run Holt's Battlefield Tours. I once visited Tyne Cot cemetery with a group of colleagues on a business trip some years ago early on a November monday morning whilst travelling out on a business trip. A very sobering experience for all concerned as the mist swirled around us.
There was a largish group of us and so we travelled by coach, the driver was a scream and knew all the bars, restaurants etc. He was recommended to another group, making a visit to a major supplier, and on the way back the coach was impounded by customs and everybody had to make their own way home from Dover. Apparently the coach was loaded with inappropriate video based material. How we laughed.
MGs
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September or October is the latest I'd go.
I agree but it bit ironic really given the dates of the battles and that the atrocious weather and muddy conditions were a feature of the battles of the Somme and indeed Agincourt. Visiting these sites in the same tript made me despair of the fact that 500 years brought no progress in the appetite for senseless wars, brutality and carnage.
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I'd endorse what others have said, particularly PU's recommendations on where to go.
A few things worth adding:
Go if you can to Vimy Ridge (not far from Arras), which the Canadians captured in 1917 and held against the 1918 German advance. Canadians are very proud of their heroes, and they feel that this victory helped to 'put Canada on the map'. The whole site is interesting, not just the memorial, as the Canadians have made reconstructions of some of the actual trenches which you can walk through.
Try to visit a few smaller cemeteries - these can be exceptionally moving. I was hugely struck at Martinpuich, just north of Thiepval, which is a small (100 graves) cemetery in the middle of a field. Think back - say 100 years ago, in 1908, it was a French field. It's still a French field. It helps to bring home the sheer futility of WW1 - and that's not to diminish the heroism of our troops. Sadly, misguided old men make wars for young heroes to fight.
Do look at the website of the wholly admirable Commonwealth War Graves Commission (www.cwgc.org) - don't add .uk. They take tremendous care of the cemeteries, and all are immaculate, with closely-mown grass and carefully-chosen flowers (even roses that smell!). There's lots of useful historical information on there, as well as information on what the CWGC does.
Finally, you must indeed see the Menin Gate ceremony at 8.00 pm every evening in Ypres (Ieper, the Flemish spelling, on most maps). Very often there is a special celebration: the day we were there (June this year) a branch of the Royal British Legion were laying a wreath. Our hotelier wisely recommended getting there by 7.30 pm so as to get a good view.
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i've been several times.
last time I went, a colleague from work was doing the tour guide bit and he was most interesting. Couldn't believe it though when we were o/s one memorial (impressive N. Irish one, with a little church etc) when my colleague said last year in the field opposite he'd dug up part of a rifle... so a few of us started kicking over the ploughed field... and I promise i'm not exaggerating, the bloke next to me kicked over an old hand grenade. Our unofficial guide advised us just to leave it at the side of the road and eventually the French military will pick it up and get rid.
the Candian one was interesting for me, up on the hill
then there's 'Ocean Villas' (Auchon Villiers or similar) guest house run by an English woman. She's got an old First Aid station in her basement and a trench dug out in the back garden. Accomodation is a bit basic, but worth it for the history and her knowledge.
I'm going to have to go back.
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Went to Ypres quite recently. Left S Oxon at 05.00, in Ypres for lunch, via SeaFrance.
www.dovereurochange.co.uk/ does ferry tickets as cheap as any.
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Do you remember the guy who was putting live battlefield `relics` through the post and It seems received a jail sentence?
It seems he had been in the flooded crater in High Wood and come out with guns, live ammo and so on.
Thanks to everyone for the info, its really going to help on the trip.
Just a note on High Wood. tinyurl.com/5gco7o
As I have mentioned before, in May we went there and the van was parked opposite the wood, near the cemetery as in the photo. You often wonder how you will react to a place, the emotional response that is.
Given the absolute horror of the place in the first world war, never cleared and with 7,000 bodies still in there, I never felt a better sense of peace and ease. Birds sang, the sun shone and that red soil coated the van after having taken a wrong turn up a track.
The feeling was that if you were forced to spend the night there, you would be at ease and totally safe. More at ease than in other places that is.
Sadness and the echo of the Great War almost palpable following reading, but that persistent feeling of peace and personal safety.
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I endorse all the suggestions made.Certainly walking round the area is a sobering moment in your life.I've been twice now but couldn't go back again.The pain and suffering those men endured is beyond belief.I can recommend the museum at Albert.It's largely underground in some old tunnels and is very atmospheric and slightly claustrophobic for those sensitive individuals.Vimy Ridge is well worth the effort-gives a true perspective of how close the trenches were in some parts.Thiepval monument is moving as well.If I remember correctly there was a computer there and you could put in the names of your relatives to look at war records.
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"there was a computer there and you could put in the names of your relatives to look at war records. "
Just in case anyone isn't aware of this, you can do this at home by going to www.cwgc.org. It covers every serviceman / servicewoman who was killed in WW1 and WW2 or died of wounds up to 2 years after the end of each war.
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And provides you with the location, and plate numeber where your relative is commemorated.
RF family great great grandfather of the 2nd Bn East Surrey regiment fell (probably gassed) on 23rd April 1915 - 2nd day of the 2nd battle of Ypres Salient near St Julien and is commemorated on the Menem gate.
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My Uncle was in the 1st Bn East Surreys. We believe he was one of the first to be killed in the War, sometime between 1300 and 1500 on the 23rd August 1914. This was the first contact with the Germans.
PU. Perhaps you are thinking of Le Cateau. And it is bizarre that a war which encompassed the globe started and ended in the same place. My Uncle is buried in Hautrage Mlitary Cemetery near Mons.
I have passed through the area of much of the battlefield but never had time to stop for long. My son was privileged to be on parade at the Menin Gate when he was stationed at SHAPE near Mons. I had three other Uncles in the East Surreys who all survived the war despite being gassed and wounded. They all lived into their 80s!
As an ex-Pongo and Grandson, Son and father of a Pongo I don?t trust Crabs or Matelots but they did all serve with distinction in WW1.
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/7528546.stm
If anything portrays the futility of war - this does. Nearly a 100 years on.
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My neighbour was the RSM of the Grenadier Guards until he retired some 20 years ago.
He was finally persuaded after many years to publish his Grandfathers diary about two years ago.
His Grandfather was Tommy Higgins from Hanley and he tells of his experience in the trenches as a common Private soldier in the North Staffordshire Regiment.
He was left on a doorstep as a baby and adopted by a Policeman and thats as far back as Alan can go with his family history.
This book is told from the view of a common soldier with no references to the rights or wrongs of the war but simply his own experiences which were horrendous.
The title is 'Tommy at Gommecourt' and is sold in several places including the National Rememberance Arboretum at Alrewas and from Alan himself.
www.tommyatgommecourt.com/page1.aspx
wemyss
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Reference the above post I entered the web address into tinyurl and received this message from ZoneAlarm.
www.zonealarm.com/store/content/company/spyblocker...2
In case you cannot connect to this page it a High Risk Warning for TINYURL and says 'that it has been known to distribute spyware.'
wemyss
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Thank you for the link. I had the date my great uncle died on the Somme, but nothing further. I now his rank (Lieutenant Colonel) , service (RNVR) and reference for where he was buried in Varennes Military Service.
This throws up more questions. Now I want to find out how he would have that rank in the Royal Navy Voluntary Reserve and why he would then be on the Somme rather than in a boat somewhere?
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They transferred vast numbers from the navy into land troops - they were the Royal Naval Division and fought themselves to death on Paschandale in particular in around 1917. There were also land borne Royal Marines as well in the Trenches. I know little about Grey Funnel Rank Structure being from a Crab family.
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Thanks Pugugly, that makes sense. He died in November 1916, the date caused ructions in the family as my grandparents married a week afterwards - most of the family thought it a disgrace not to mourn for the official year.
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It was a very different world - but still in living memory - When I was small we had an "aunt" she mourned my Great Uncle when he died in the third Ypres for the rest of hers.....wasted years maybe, but there was a logical reason beyond the grief, there was a real shortage of men after the end of the war. Listening to the news tonight, its shocking to realise that little has changed in 90 years.
Edited by Pugugly on 11/08/2008 at 21:51
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I did a WWI coach tour in this area a couple of years ago.
Museums worth seeing are the one in Ypres (or Ieper as they call it nowadays) and The Historial de la Grande Guerre in Peronne. Also worth visiting is Talbot House in Poperinge (Belgium). There are WWI cemeteries all over the region, large and small.
Edited by Typ 8L on 30/07/2008 at 16:26
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It's threads like this where the BR really excels itself.
If you are coming from Calais, and passing St Omer, I heartily recommend a trip to La Coupole www.lacoupole-france.com/en/default.asp whence V2s were launched in WW2. A proper museum.
Typ 8L - Ypres is the French, Iepers is the Dutch (Flemish). Both continue to be current.
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> Ypres is the French, Iepers is the Dutch (Flemish). Both continue to be current.
Well, when I was there, I got the impression "Ieper" was the official name (on road signs etc).
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Compare on google the 1.6m hits for Ypres and the 5,290 for Iepers. The latter hits will be in Dutch, the former in French (or largely English owing to the WW1 issues debated above).
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Don't really want to get all pedantic here, but I feel I should point out that if you google the correct spelling ("Ieper"), you get 4,660,000 hits.
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To be totally pedantic - Ypres is the recognized spelling for WW1 purposes. The Dutch spelling was only adopted comparatively recently, Ypres is still an alternative spelling(French) on most maps.
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" wipers" according to my grandad...bless his soul
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I got the impression "Ieper" was the official name (on road signs etc).
Lot of politics in that region at the moment - looking like a Dutch Walloon split - surprising to me on my last visit to the area that on the French side (Cassel) the distinct anti-French and Pro-Flemish tone in a particular bar.
I suppose that's what you get when you build a "designer" nation to solve other problems. This country's fault again !
I've recommended this book before on this site - Fatal Avenue - Richard Holmes an excellent history of the region.
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Isn't there a geographical split in Belgium between French- and Flemish-speaking areas? Ypres / Ieper is presumably in the latter. Seeing it on the map my daughter though it was someone who had leprosy....
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Isn't there a geographical split in Belgium between French- and Flemish-speaking areas?
Yes there is and its a bit of a minefield re spellings! I got into a similar discussion on the spelling of Gent/Ghent on another forum - personally I stick with the spellings on the local signs in the area - that way you don't upset the locals...
But on this forum I'd suggest that awe agree to use either spelling to keep everyone happy! ;-)
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I toured the area myself some years ago and was humbled by the small cemeteries dotted all over the countryside. Perhaps 100 graves in each, all men under 25, dead on the same date and from the same 2 or 3 regiments. Then 3 miles East, another hundred graves, a few days later and still the same regiments, as the advance continued. And all kept in marvellous condition and appearance by the local employees of the CWGC, whose website is a great way of locating deceased military men and women, BTW.
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What springs to mind after reading your post (and worth a visit actually in the Somme) is a tiny cemetery (off road). Devonshire Regiment. The tribute reads "The Devonshires held this trench - they hold it still"
www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3033/devonshire...l
Edited by Pugugly on 11/08/2008 at 22:28
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I am very fond of this part of the world & have toured on a few occasions. One thing not to be missed (if you are a fan of such things) is the BEER! Flanders contains some of Belgium's finest breweries, and the area near Ieper/Ypres is renowned. I'd recommend a trip through a village called Watou (near Popperinge) for a visit to the three breweries there (St Bernardus, de Bie and Van Eecke) and for a bite in t'hommelhopf (fantastic restaurant- try the hop shoots in hollandaise sauce if it's in season www.hommelhof.be/ ). Then pop into the shop opposite the abbey at Westvleteren (5 minutes up the road) to sample/ buy some of the hardest to find & to my mind nicest of Belgian trappist beers (only sold at the abbey/ shop).
If you have time, a trip to Bruges/ Brugge is well worth it- a fantastic little city.
I really wish I had a trip there to look forward to, but apm junior no.1 is due in a week.
Enjoy!
BW,
Alex.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/08/2008 at 14:43
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The trouble with the beer in Belgium is that they do not put the strength on the bar clip. My wife and I stayed in Ypres and I got very drunk. But not before I had seen the service at the Menin Gate with the Last Post, very moving.
We stayed at Albert in a typical French hotel, flowery wallpaper lousy plumbing etc. I wondered what the room would have seen over the years with all the wars around the area. We visited the Theipval Memorial. I would recommend a visit.
I went on the Albert trip in my long departed Sierra 2.3 Ghia, smashing car but a bit thirsty.
Edited by quizman on 12/08/2008 at 17:24
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I stick to the bottled stuff, it tastes better and if you are that worried the strength is on the bottle!
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If you're eating in Brugge - avoid the overpriced tourist trap restaurants go here
www.hobbitgrill.be/
There is a delightful, traditional bar opposite - witnessed a very drunken PU there in June.....
(allegedly).
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Thanks for all the recent replies, I will look up the points you raise.
Went to Albert last time, but forgot about French lunch! Intend to get there earlier in the morning next time.
PU, Thanks for the book recommendation and the Brugge info.
Re La Coupole, been there and also to a similar place, the name of which eludes me. Blockhouse ???
We found this place absolutely stuffed with weaponry
tinyurl.com/6s8jkl
Will take more than one trip to get through the new areas in September as really they are frock shopping trips too... (not for me)
Really ought to re-locate from Yorkshire to somewhere within an hours drive of Dover. What`s the area East of the Dartford crossing like?
Edited by oilrag on 12/08/2008 at 19:23
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Beer's crap south of Watford oilrag.
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"I wondered what the room would have seen over the years with all the wars around the area"
I thought that one night in a very old decrepit backstreet `Hotel` in Aachen, in 1980, obviously original windows and you could almost feel the place vibrating to Lancaster bombers. Only 35 years on at that point and I found it a very different Germany to now in dealings with some of the older generation.
My friend saying "charming" to a brusque (at our nationality) hot dog vendor almost had us in real trouble. He had thought we said "German" and it resembled a Monty Python sketch, but with menace as (late at night) others came and stood quietly behind us- and not in a queue for hotdogs.
A bike trip that on the way to Koblenz, frozen to death almost, chained it to a lamp post and was not bothered if it was gone in the morning.
Been twice to Koblenz since 2005 and found it a totally different experience.
Edited by oilrag on 12/08/2008 at 19:49
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I stayed in a delightful French b&b in Mailly-Maillet on the Somme.
www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/bieffes.html
The elderly owner regaled us with what those walls had seen in both conflicts - disturbing stuff.
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I stick to the bottled stuff it tastes better and if you are that worried the strength is on the bottle!
I forgot to add, the best beers in Belgium, the Trappist and Abbey beers are supposed to be savoured, not swigged... something the typical Britsih p-artist know nothing about (savouring and taste that is!) ;-)
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