Hi Screwloose, would this have to be done at a Jag dealer or can a reputable garage carry out the work.
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It's basically the Mondeo TDCi unit; so a very well-equipped indie might have the kit.
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Screwloose, are the two problems I mentioned in any way related? or are they two separate issues.
Geran
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just as screwloose say's, but also check the wires going into the AFM plug. These are prone to coming out the plug on the 2.0d. Also you may need to get the injectors tested for leak off. Have inj coding checked first.
I Doc
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a good Jag independent will have all the stuff that a dealer has e.g. diagnostics etc
I got mine out of an advert in Jaguar World Monthly
i've queried with them whether they can properly cover diesel (wife's car is 2.0 diesel estate), whereas mine is older and petrol. They showed me all their technicians certificates from Jaguar which cover diesels as well... and mine's been on the their Jag diagnostic machine
if you're anywhere near J27 M25 I can recommend them. I think you'd be better off at a decent indie because of the price and they're more likely to have seen a number of faults, because their customers have older cars.
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Car went into garage a few days back, but informed there were no codes showing and unable to get it to do any of the symptoms I had mentioned.
Any more clues any one
Thanks
Geran
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There were no codes - really?? On a dealer's IDS?
Did they re-enter the injector correction factors? Do a leak-off quantity test? Check Doc's AFM wiring suggestion?
Or did they just not bother?
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went into a garage!???
Really or was it just a little garage & did they just try going into EOBD? These will be emission related only!
Jaguar WDS & IDS can more or less even tell you when what speed you have taken the car up to! & historic codes as well! Sounds like you didn't venture into a good indie or dealer.
I would follow the advice you have been given before you need anymore help
I Doc
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OK here is the latest on the Jag problem,
After the waste of time sat in there local service garage it went to a well known diagnostic shop that is also known to me, turns out the Fancy diagnostic new gear he had recently updated could not fully do the job!!
So a couple of days ago it was taken to the local Jaguar dealer with what I assumed was my detailed description of the problems well I picked up the car today did approx ten miles and it did the same thing (slight miss,limp mode, glow plug flashing)
As you can imagine I was not a happy chappy, just got off the phone with the service manager all they had done was a software upgrade and checked for any obvious fuel leaks air leaks etc, after I went through exactly the symptoms of the problem, without any prompt he then mentioned it may need blah blah doing (the items screwloose and injector doc had already mentioned) Holy carp give me strength.
Just spoken to the dealer who to be honest is doing as much as he can for me, so back it goes to Jaguar.
Geran
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 01/08/2008 at 19:41
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Further update
Motor been back to Jag dealer this time with fault showing at time of taking it in (glow plug light flashing and in limp mode) informed after a couple of hours later by the dealer from whom I bought the car, that fault had show on the diagnostic this time ummmm!! and was told it was a chocked up EGR valve.
So with the new part fitted I assumed all would be well again, but within two days same fault appeared, back in again on Monday glad I'm not footing the bill.
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It is likely to need an injector recoding as Screwloose says, only about 30 mins to do with the diagnostics machine plugged in.
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Latest on the Jag
After the AGR valve!! did not cure the problem, back it went to Jaguar on Monday, have now been informed they are saying the turbo is at fault and needs replacing, well you can imagine the situation the dealer is in who I purchased the car from, it cost him over £400 all ready now they were wanting initially another £1100 for new turbo and fitting now he is also not a happy chappy.
I'm collecting the motor tomorrow, all I can say I hope it is now sorted, and thank goodness I did not buy from a private seller or I would be paying the bill.
Geran
Edited by Webmaster on 14/08/2008 at 01:33
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Geran
If they keep fitting enough parts, they might eventually get lucky.....
I'm at a loss to understand how a turbo fault causes it to run on three cylinders....?
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Bang on there Screwloose,
Now I ain't no expert on these modern motors, but apparently the last time it was actually driven into the Jag dealer doing the (flashing glow plug/limp mode, the IDS mentioned something about the turbo boost! but they said the AGR valve was all blocked up ummmm!!
Reminds me of the old days when there was no fancy diagnostic equipment, you just needed the right man for the job and sometimes you had to fit a few parts to sort the problem, but not at £100 per hour labour charge plus those not so cheap parts.
Not sure if it is just coincidence but it had never done the three cylinder/engine management light fault again, even before it went to the Jag dealer only in the first week about four times, it then progressed to the second fault where it did it nearly every day.
My Dealer is all ready talking court proceedings goodness knows what he will do if it's still not cured, best just stick another engine in it (brand new one from Jag off course)
Edited by Webmaster on 14/08/2008 at 01:32
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Hi
I have a 2005 2l Diesel estate with the same problem - just sorted.
Ford technical guys recognise this problem and have posted solution to there garages, however Jag (the same engine) are not. They have identified premature wearing of the injectors.
Our Jag dealer firstly said they would replace flywheel, however when they were in process they got a reply back from Jag HQ or wherever it comes from for them to replace the fuel injectors.
Had the car back for a month now and all seems fine. I think it was the injectors, but the flywheel was replaced, so I could not rule that out.
Ask the Jag boys to look up / contact what was done by Isle of Man Jag dealer.
MLS
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Hi
Jag dealer initially thought it could be an intermittent injector problem, but after several hook ups first they tried software update, next a new AGR valve, and today a nice new turbo, cost so far around the £1,200 mark I'll know within a week or so if it's sorted or not, don't think my car dealers heart will take much more, let alone his wallet.
Geran
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Oh Joy!!!
I've just purchased an 05 plate x-type 2.0 diesel sport today
Drove from the dealer home and after 20 miles the amber glow plug light started flashing and power was reduced. When I stopped and turned ignition off and back on again car was back to normal. After reading the above I fear I may be in for a nightmare experience with my first Jag.
Any follow up info on this subject would be helpful
thanks
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Hey Woody and chaps,
Got the same prob. Glow plug light flashing and car loses power. This doesn't happen on a cold start only after its been first used for the day.
Fuel filter replaced already. No code on diag machine. Next move is to take it to Jag and ask them to look at it (was hoping to avoid main dealer). Will update after this.
Please dont lose heart over your Jag... some cars have faults but many dont. And without any issue they are a joy to drive (and the only car I dont get travel sick in!!).
Just when they do go wrong, and we cant fix it, it causes us pain (and cost).
Update here soon,
Ruth x
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I bought a 2005 2.0d X-Type with the starting probs and had all the injectors replaced. No probs since and just sold at 110k. Glow plug light and reduced power a mystery. Turn off and it resumes normal servivce again.
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OK, so on the first day Jag ran a diagnostic and said no fault found and asked for extra days testing. On the second day they said that I needed a new Turbo and new injectors as they were worn and only had 1000 miles left. Yeah I spat my tea out too!! So having done loads of research and spoken to my local mechanic, its now booked into a diesel specialist for next Tuesday (who when I told them the Jag diagnosis also spat their tea out!). They said it didn't seem likely that the Turbo was at fault as the issue is intermittent, there is no black smoke, and the car isn't too noisy. But obviously until they inspect it they can't rule it out completely.
Update soon,
Ruth x
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Ok, so diag test done this morning at Reading Diesel, they diagnosed a faulty wastegate, which does mean replacing the turbo unfortunately. They said though that the injectors were fine and did not need replacing. So I'm glad I got a second opinion, and what sounds like a confident honest one. Why did it take Jag 2 days but the diesel specialists one hour (prob a lot less than that!)? I know where I'm taking my business from now on!
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For that very reason - they are specialists.
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THe problem is the electronic turbo actuator it bakes itself a really poor design and it cannot be bought seperately £645+vat or you can get them on ebay for around£200.If you try and split them from the turbo you need to have it calibrated.Neither Ford or Jaguar have the falicity to check them properly they have to taken to a independant injector company.Just replacing the EGR is not much good you need to have the inlet manifold cleaned out and while it is stripped down install a new set of glowplugs.
Jaguar x types take the worst of the mondeo and a few problems of their own lovely looking especially the estate which I had but nightmares to own.
Edited by Andy Bairsto on 04/11/2009 at 07:43
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Guys in America are cleaning variable vane turbo's with Oven cleaner with very good sucess rate.
I have had 3 Diesel x types & never had any problems at all even with the first 2 covering very high mileages. The best one was my 06 2.2d which I sold & the present owner is now up to 90k & not a single issue other than tyres & head lamp bulbs.
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The early ones will have had vacuum actuators no problem with them and the latest one you have been very lucky.Its not a disaster when they do go wrong if you have the ability to get the correct diagnosis and the actuator fault does not read on the main ecu as a fault.
Edited by Andy Bairsto on 04/11/2009 at 12:49
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Andy, always had frequent oil changes & used Mobil1, always used BP fuel as recommended in the jaguar H/Book & used snake oil in the tank every 5k.
I believe (although doubted on here many times before) fuel types & Oil can contribute to fouling up of EGR valves & VVTurbo's & injector problems.
Had diesels for years & still do, including her in doors (and she only does 6k per year)& never experienced all these issues that seem to plague some diesels. So I will stick with quality fuel & oil & snake oil. Its not just luck
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I would agree there is some terrible quality diesel fuel available in the UK.
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As one who used to test fuel for a living, I'm interested.
In what way is the "terrible quality" fuel deficient and what aspects of EN590 are out of spec?
I have tested lots of UK fuel and the general quality has been excellent. Odd non compliances have usually been due to the presence of dirt or water - which any decent vehicle fuel system will deal with in limited amounts between filter drainage or replacement.
Where was this "terrible quality" fuel purchased from?
My car is specified by its maker to run on fuel to EN590 and I buy the cheapest fuel to this spec. I have had absolutely no problems with this (one engine has now covered 151k miles on this fuel) and I have found dirt and water levels to be commendably low. The supplier is Tesco.
659.
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well 659fbe, perhaps you can explain why if fuel is basically fuel why my diesel auto would not kick down at all when for the first time ever i filled it up with supermarket fuel. I was seriously worried with the lack of response. It took a while to burn off 70+ ltrs but never again. As soon as refilled it was a s bright as a button. My wifes TDCi we used to fill at a supermarket but then we noticed the fuel consumption dropped by 3-5mpg on the cheap stuff & the car wasn't so responsive compared to a well branded make. Once I slipped a tank of quality fuel in without telling her & straight away she said her car was running a lot better I decided it was time to change for good.
So you used to test fuel for a living. OK well I suprised a major fuel company when I susgested there fuel wasn't doing what it claimed in certain regions which i could plot on a map. They did a serious investigation & admitted to using base fuels from another major oil company in different regions & adding their own addatives on delivery,
Well the interesting fact was that the fuel addatives were reacting differently & not working as designed when used in what they called fuel swaps.
In my claims i was able to subsantiate areas in the country where the fuel addatives were not working & to their shock it was the fuel swap regions.
Out of respect for the companies & the amount of respect they showed me & the time & help we shared I am not naming or divulging the regions but i can assure you whilst fuels may reach a certain spec they do not all burn the same & some give off higher aromatic hydrocarbons increasing emissions & oil contamination.
I spent considerable time in scientific labs watching engines running on test beds burning different oils & fuels & that is a real eye opener. Fuel companies do not bragg about their fuels & what they can achieve but belive you me there is a difference.
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We have two variables - the fuel and the engine.
Diesel engines sold in the UK are generally specified to run on fuel conforming to EN590. The engine in your vehicle is one of these.
If you filled your vehicle with fuel allegedly conforming to this specification bought from a supermarket and then found a major malfunction such as lack of kickdown, there is a serious problem. So serious a problem, in fact that one would reasonably expect a fair proportion of their thousands of fuel customers to have similar difficulties.
Diesel engines are generally insensitive to fuel variation as long as the cetane value is sufficiently high. I have used supermarket fuel for many years conforming to the standard required for my engines without the slightest difficulty.
If your engine will not run satisfactorily on fuel sold to EN590 from a major supermarket outlet, I would respectfully suggest that there is something wrong with it.
659.
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the only serious problem was the fuel. I went to the dealer & said it was common feed back. The vehicle had only covered 6k from new at the time.
I tow a lot & I can assure you that even going back to using a cavalier for towing in 1990 different fuels make a difference.
Having carried out rolling road tests there IS a difference!
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just found this in BMW magazine forum, so I'm not the only one who notices a difference.
"However, having owned a E46 M3 for 7 months now the difference in performance is considerable between fuel variants. The car feels lame with cheap fuel.
M owners - Can you tell the difference? If so, what is your preferred fuel?
_________________
E87 120d Sport / E46 M3
Forum Golf Champion 2009.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:55 am Reply with quote
Dales
Learner
Joined 27 Apr 2006
Posts 106
Location North Lanarkshire"
"Im not driving an M but I must admit I personally find a difference in fuel,
If I use supermarket fuels I don't feel a massive difference in performance but I would say it makes a difference.
As for mpg it does make a difference to my car, supermarket fuel I average about 31 mpg and if I use BP jet etc I get around 36 to 37 mpg.
I do personaly think it makes a difference,"
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In terms of performance and economy, I just can't see how this is possible. There is a valid argument that more expensive fuels have a better / more consistent additive package which could help keep the combustion chambers cleaner, and also anything in the path of the exhaust gases such as a turbocharger, and that possibly over a few tankfuls it might restore a couple of lost horsepower, or prevent power from dropping off due to crud build up. However, I just can't see how anything the manufacturer does post-refinery, bearing in mind the tight restrictions on vehicle emissions, can make the bang bigger for a given amount of fuel. This to my untrained mind is the only way you are going to see a change in power or economy over a single tankful, as claimed in the BMW post above.
I understand the higher octane rating of premium fuel can release power by allowing a suitably adaptive engine management system to run the ignition timing more advanced. This will especially benefit high compression or forced induction (i.e. high performance) engines. But given a specific octane rating or grade of fuel from different sources, which comes from the same base stock from the same refineries, I just can't see how such a huge difference can exist between brands.
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You can't apply petrol engine fuel quality parameters to diesels. Diesel engines do not have adaptive ignition timing based on knock sensors as petrol engines do - there is no spark so actual ignition timing becomes an indirectly controlled parameter with the injection timing being one (but only one) factor.
Diesel fuel is characterised primarily by its cetane number which is a measure of its ignition quality. The higher the number, the more easily it burns. Cetane is chosen as a measuring parameter because diesel fuel contains predominantly longer hydrocarbon chains than does petrol. The actual value for a fuel under test gives the percentage by volume of cetane C16H34 in a mixture with napthalene C11H10 which gives the same ignition delay as is found in a test engine using the fuel under test. The mixture is used because cetane has excellent ignition quality (assigned cetane 100) and napthalene very poor qualities (assigned cetane 0).
Other aspects of EN590 which include lubricity will not affect engine output.
As far as soot and "coke" (ash deposits are sometimes present on injectors) are concerned, there is far more variability caused by engine and fuel equipment type than can possibly caused by fuel variations, within the EN590 spec.
A "good" engine running on any UK sourced fuel to EN590 will, in my view give entirely satisfactory service and my own experience bears this out.
659.
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"You can't apply petrol engine fuel quality parameters to diesels. Diesel engines do not have adaptive ignition timing based on knock sensors as petrol engines do"
Diesel engines do have knock sensors now & these do adjust the fuel timing constantly.
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I really feel it's time to add-in my own experience re X-type diesel and fuel. I've owned and run a range of diesels: peugeots; VWs, bmw and currently a s80 volvo. I use fuels from all outlets and find absolutely no difference between them.
That said, around 2005 when the x-type diesel first came out, I ran one for about a couple of years. The only issue I had re fuel was that if if filled up at Asda it ran with a great deal of black exhaust smoke to the point that others pointed it out to me.
No matter where else I filled up, the car was fine, and this went on to the point where it happened too many times to be a co-incidence: asda equalled black smoke, albeit no appreciable difference to performance or economy
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My 2.0d diesels x-types ran smoother on different brands of fuels & my commute was 122.2 miles each way per day so did lots of runs with different fuels & the three top brands definatley ran smoother or more responsive. The 2.2 x type now when I ran that one on diesel ultimate that really made a significant difference, enough to justify the cost . That one really flew on Ultimate.
I did the commute for over 7 years so did plenty of miles with plenty of cars so was able to do some good comparison tests.
When i tow which is approx 5000 miles a year, mostly in Europe you do notice a difference in the fuels, especially abroad.
Having been in test laboratory's & seen components tested I do not believe test results. I once witnessed a special built clutch assembly built to an over spec but to within the working tolerance of the OE manufacture. When it was installed it didn't work but the OE unit did but according to 3 pages of graph print out it should of worked. The engineers were left scratching their heads but they still said according to the print out it should work. It was a classic.
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Hello,
warranty compoany refusing to pay for similar problem, claiming that the injectors are wortn out. Can you oplease forward more details about Jag indentifying premature waer & tear of the injectors. where canmI get this info.
jdmarketing @ hotmail.co.uk
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