Usually about 30 mph 2-2400 rpm in third gear with foot on or off gas at the moment.
When I could get onto a faster road (2 weeks ago) and was not in limp mode (but MIL lit) would loose a bit of power at about 50-70 mph occasionally. Usually in damp air conditions.
Basically, I can only take it round the block now and it will peg out above 2400. (Seems highly unpredicatable) Can always re-start when turn off ignition, wait a couple of seconds and turn engine back on.
The problem is at its worst now and so there has been a gradual deterioration over time.
Always worse in bad weather.
Thanks for your help.
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Can your scanner read Peugeot P1--- and P2--- codes or is it limited to sub-P1000 EOBD codes only?
I'd have expected a P1112 or a P1138 in there after an emergency shutdown.
Check the terminals' tightness on the rail pressure sensor and the engine loom rotary connector for corrosion.
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'Can your scanner read Peugeot P1--- and P2--- codes or is it limited to sub-P1000 EOBD codes only?'
I cleared the P1138 code when I did my pressure sensor disconnection test.
I have never seen a P1112 code. Perhaps the Elmscan5 DIY scanner can't detect it.
I am pretty sure the rail pressure sensor is working and has good continuity.
'Check the terminals' tightness on the rail pressure sensor and the engine loom rotary connector for corrosion.'
I will definitely try to check the engine loom rotary connector, could you give me some idea of where it is, since all this HDi stuff is new to me and there are cables all over the place. The Haynes manual is rather limited in this area.
Thanks, I will go and look at some more cables this evening.
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Gilbert
Yes; your readings from the FRP sensor are very typical. I'd have changed the combo relay by now; as most are cheap and my labour-rate isn't.
Follow the convoluted tube down towards the bottom of the radiator and you'll come to the "aircraft socket." I normally avoid touching them like the plague as they can crumble; but in this case....
Loose-fitting terminals in the FRP sensor's plug was a known issue; there is a modified loom section available.
If you've seen P1138; then your scanner can read non-EOBD codes.
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'Yes; your readings from the FRP sensor are very typical. I'd have changed the combo relay by now; as most are cheap and my labour-rate isn't.'
I tested the relay on the bench with a multimeter and a power supply. It seemed OK but I did not use a huge test current through switch contacts. The new low pressure pump seems to run ok anyway, I think it is the ECU that is switching it off.
Do you know where I can buy the combo relay ? I can't get one locally and the car is grounded.
' Follow the convoluted tube down towards the bottom of the radiator and you'll come to the "aircraft socket." I normally avoid touching them like the plague as they can crumble; but in this case....'
I am not sure I have this socket. I have followed FRP wires back to ECU connectors and tested continuity. They don't seem to go in radiator direction. It is possible vibration at high revs is causing trouble. I suppose I could bypass. I would have thought that this would throw up the P1138 code if it was causing trouble.
Tonights little test. (Car standing in same spot out of gear)
Ignition ON
Connect scanner
Clear Mil from PC. (Light does not go out)
Start Car (Mil light goes out)
Rev to 3000
Then engine cuts out--> Mil light back on
Read code - Usual P230
But the scanner shows an unrecognised pending code (???) P00CC
This will not clear. Is this hexadecimal for P0204. Could this be a problem with injector number 4 ?? or is this a phantom code. (The injector wiring back to ECU checks out OK)
The above steps are all reproducible. (Today at least )
Note : If I don't clear the Mil, the car will rev to about 2400 and not stall.
Do you think I should keep trouble shooting wiring or be thinking about leak off test.
The kits seem a bit pricey, but I guess they do include the correct coupling. (Any home made alternatives possible ?)
I am still messing about with all this because I am learning quite a lot about my car which I am sure will be useful in the future.
Do you know how the high pressure regulator is controlled by the ECU ? Is it analogue voltage ? Should I investigate this connection further.
Thanks for info and your time.
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Gilbert
That hex code is interesting...
Combo relays can mess about; in my case, they're not worth the time to test, so I change them if in doubt. You could rig up a bulb to the fuel pump feed fuse [or pump] drive it and check it that way.
A leak-off test is very useful on these. I shouldn't let this one out; but do you have a Renault dealer near you? If so; I've got a part number....
A DIY leak test kit is 4m of clear windscreen washer tube and four plastic w/screen right angle joiners from an accessory shop. [Also used in many other fields like home brewing. Whatever happened to that?]
Cut into four 1m lengths and hang upwards from the bonnet catch. Remove the leak-off pipes and push the r/angles into the injectors; if you've got a leaking injector, it will fill a tube in seconds - the others will leak-off just a few drops in the same time of running.
The fuel pressure regulator [middle of the pump; unbolt it and check it's o-rings and the very tip for blocking with swarf] is 12 volt fed and pulsed by the ECU to adjust it. You'd need a scope to see the pulses - nearly always flags a P1138 if faulty.
The aircraft socket[s] carry the ECU power and earth cables and the fuel-pump feed. The loom under the rad can rot in half too. [No; I don't know what they make it out of...]
Edited by Screwloose on 01/07/2008 at 23:53
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Thanks for all info Screwloose, lots of things to try and investigate.
I have renault dealer nearby.
I will post back when I have more info from further investigations. (Few hours of car time in evening after work - weather permitting)
Cheers,
Gilbert.
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Gilbert
Renault dealers' workshop leak-off kit; six measuring bottles, tubes, adaptors [fit HDi too] rack, regulator dummy resistor and nice case. Renault part no 77 11 381 711
Haggle and you should get it for £30-40 - there's no fixed price.
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Hi,
I just did a home made injector leak-off test using 4 small plastic measuring cylinders.
Not sure if I have done the correct things, but here are my results.
Not sure which counts as cylinder 1 and so I will assume it is the one nearest the cambelt.
Duration of measurement was 100 Secs with car idle at about 800-850 rpm
(A longer time would have made my cylinders overflow)
Cylinder 1 2 3 4
Voulme 12.5 12.5 12.5 10
/ml
Is this slightly lower value on cylinder 4 injector a problem, or should I ignore for now and carry on with the other investigations you recommend ?
Thanks,
Gilbert
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Gilbert
Nothing obviously wrong there; cylinder 1 [gearbox end - it's French....!] is a little less than it should be, but not enough to cause your problem.
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Finally found those Aircraft connectors. They look very clean and in good condition.
I removed them, checked connectors and used a bit of contact cleaner. Not too concerned about those at the moment.
I am now going to look at low pressure pump power feed etc. and see if I can find anything.
Cheers,
Gilbert.
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Measured current to lifter pump. About 8 or 9 amps (At 3000 rpm also). Not concerned about this. Checked looms. All OK.
Changed lifter pump relay. No change, have a spare relay now.
Removed HP pump regulator. There is a green gasket and then a white washer. (Is it plastic, nylon or ceramic ???) Anyway, it has a crack in. Could this be related to fuel problems ?? Peugeot don't seem to supply these washers separately and the regulator is very expensive. Does this regulator operate on the low pressure fuel side ? Does it have some sort of plunger inside ?
I am out of options now. This is the end game. Do I take to the garage yet ?
All comments welcome.
Cheers,
Gilbert.
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Gilbert
Measured current to lifter pump. About 8 or 9 amps
That's a bit high.
Anyway it has a crack in. Could this be related to fuel problems ??
Yes; see reference to "split O-rings" earlier. No idea what they're made of - stuff. Try a diesel specialist for a new one - I just replace the reg.
Does this regulator operate on the low pressure fuel side ?
Yes.
Does it have some sort of plunger inside ?
Yes. ECU pulse-controlled.
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So you reckon a new reg should sort it then ?
The O-rings are not split, it is a white support ring under the small O ring. (Hairline crack)
The regulator seems hard to get hold of. Peugeot have one that is very expensive - almost as much as a new HP pump. Do you know of any distributors that might have stock. Would it be worth a visit to the scrap yard ?
I was hoping the reg was on the low pressure side because I was worried about getting air into the HP rail. I don't wish to mess with HP side.
Cheers,
Gilbert
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Gilbert
Can't picture the bit you mean; never looked that hard at one. If it can't leak past the O-rings, then it should be OK. If it can; change it.
Definitely worth getting a second-hand one; just make sure it's spotless - no swarf or grit. Watch the fragile tip.
Don't worry about air; a non-event on a Bosch system - just prime it a few times on the key and all the air purges. Very wise to be wary of the HP side though.
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I soaked the regulator in injector fluid for a couple of hours and refitted to pump.
Car seems to work ok now, P0230 has gone and so has limp home mode. (3 Successful journeys with MIL light off and no stalls !)
I will fit new O-rings when they arrive and get a spare S/H regulator for backup just to be on the safe side. I think I have managed to escape the garage fitting a new HP pump etc.
Thanks for all your help and excellent advice Screwloose and keep up the good work on this forum.
I hope this thread helps others with similar problems/symptoms.
Regards,
Gilbert
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Gilbert
Really hope that's got it; sticky regulators are not unknown - but usually only on cars that use supermarket fuel.
It could have been flagging P0230 as it computes the primary pressure from the rail reading and a reg problem could have foxed it.
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No more supermarket fuel then. It could cause more problems than it is worth.
Cheers,
Gilbert.
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Hi all, firstly I'd like to congratulate Gilbert on fixing his problem (I hope it's still working ok!), and I'm very grateful to the people who have given so much time to help resolve this fault, it's certainly made interesting reading.
I have a similar fault on my Expert HDi van. Whenever I switch off the engine I can hear fuel and air gurgling through the filter and back into the tank, so every time I start the engine I have to turn the engine on and off half a dozen times to get the LP pump to purge all the air out of the lines and get some fuel back up to the HP pump. The engine will then start and run perfectly ... until I use up too much fuel by driving up a hill, pulling too much weight (eg towing) or even applying any more than feather-light pressure to the throttle. The engine then stalls, the MIL light comes on, and when I plug in my cheap OBD scanner it reports the following faults -
P0230 Fuel Pump Primary Circuit
P0243 Turbo/Super Charger Wastegate Solenoid 'A'
P0403 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Control Circuit
I know that air is getting into the lines somewhere, and I wonder if my problem could be the fuel pressure reg sticking and also allowing air in. I have also noticed a fair bit of black smoke so I know it's overfuelling at times. I can sometimes catch the fault and ease off the throttle enough to keep the engine going when I feel the engine starts to run rough as it is running out of fuel, but sometimes it runs fine for a while and then suddenly dies.
If anyone can suggest anything for me to try then I'd be glad of the help. I haven't taken the fuel pressure reg out yet as I wonder if there could be anything else to try first.
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Mike
The black smoke could well be a stuck EGR valve. That might flag P0243 too as the boost will be leaking out.
I'd wonder about a failing tank pump; you've got all the classic symptoms and the right code. Can you measure the primary line pressure - should be around 2.5 bar.
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Good to hear from you Screwloose, I thought you'd be along soon!
The guy I bought the van from (who had given up on fixing the fault and just bought another van instead) assured me that the tank pump was fine since it was the first thing he'd removed. I suppose I should take his advice with a large pinch of salt given that he had given up on fixing the fault though.
Is it likely that air is getting in through the lift pump? The pump certainly makes some bad gurgling whooshing noises, but I had been assuming that was the air coming back into the tank from the fuel lines.
I haven't noticed the fuel filter bulging when the pump's running, so maybe it's not making enough pressure.
Thanks very much for your help, I'll try to find a gauge or maybe just replace the lift pump and clean the EGR valve.
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Lift pump = low pressure (in-tank) pump.
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Ahh; I see. There is a one-way valve in the tank pump; if it's rotors are disintegrating, then the frag could be jamming it.
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Thanks very much for your help with this Screwloose, I replaced the in-tank pump today and it's not stalling any more, so your diagnosis was spot on! It does look like the one-way valve in the pump had gone since I could hear fuel rushing back into the tank as soon as I turned off the engine, but now that I've replaced the pump it's stopped doing that. I guess the pump was on it's way out too because when I pumped the fuel out of the tank I could see that the fuel was full of air bubbles from the pump.
I hope this info helps someone else, because I can understand why the mechanic who looked at the van before me was convinced the pump was ok - it was certainly pumping fuel and generating a fair bit of pressure (using my high-tech thumb-over-end-of-pipe pressure gauge), but replacing the pump has proved that the pump was definitely causing the problem.
I'll take a look at the EGR valve this weekend, because now that the engine's getting enough fuel it's making loads of black smoke every time I accelerate hard.
Just one word of caution, I bought the replacement pump from a company that sells German, Swedish and French parts but they supplied just the pump rather than the complete sender unit assembly. I may be mistaken, but the Pug pump/sender assembly does not appear to come apart to enable just the pump to be replaced. Also the Walbro pump supplied is smaller than the pump in the Pug / Bosch sender unit so it looks like it would not fit anyway. I ended up buying a complete assembly (genuine Bosch unit) from another company that sells European car parts, and it was a perfect replacement for the original unit. I hope you all know which two suppliers I'm talking about ;-)
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Mike
Glad my suggestion set you on the right road.
Now you know why I always use dealer parts; not only because I haven't the time to trawl round, but because cheaper is often for a reason.... I hate having to make those "similar" pumps fit.
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Hi Screwloose, thanks for your advice on the fuel pump.
I looked at the EGR valve this weekend, and it is covered in black gunk. The problem is, that on the Expert (and 806, Synergie, Dispatch, etc) there is very poor access to it. The engines in these vans/MPVs are pushed back so that the top of the engine is under the windscreen. I can see the EGR valve from underneath but I can't reach it, and while I can feel it from over the top of the engine, I can't see what I'm doing! Any advice on how to change the valve with such poor access, or do I need to remove the exhaust and turbo to get to it?
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Mike
Now you know why I do diagnosis and leave it to the mechanics to get their hands dirty. They are indeed a pig on these - consult a Haynes, if they do one.
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Hi guys oh the joys of 2 lire hdi ownership, recently encounted a problem on a 60k mileage peugeot expert. was serviced at 59600. Symptoms.... diesel knock orange warning light then engine stall and would not restart. iron filings in filter! . so had new fuel pump fitted water pump and t/belts seeing as it was naked for the fuel pump ... it ran for 4 days maybe 300 miles ...and bang same again! would not restart back to garage did all the scanner tests it came up with fuel pressure fault again also solenoid cutt off on no 1 injector garage has bypassed solenoid (fused) and also fitted new complete fuel filter unit £60 it had previosly had a filter at 59k but this was not fitted as a complete unit it was changed in situ after reading the posts on here it seems it is bad practice to not change the complete unit anyway just got the beast back from garage hopefully for the last time.... but somehow im not holding my breath on this one
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