Possibly, but it still seems odd to me that fuel gets so much attention, rather than the purchase and maintenance costs.
In round figures, we spend today (i.e. at today's prices and 10000 miles a year) £1600 on fuel. I would suggest that this is about 30% of the true other annual costs of motoring.
Buyers seem obsessed with mpg, while looking at new cars costing 30-40% more than in most countries in the world. And how come if we're struggling so much, new cars sell at all? They can't all be business purchases can they?
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I hope the price of diesel cars doesn't fall and encourage sales.
I've just returned from a visit to the UK where I was thoroughly fed up with being behind diesel cars - many of them nearly new - that belched clouds of oily black smoke whenever they were booted to overtake or get up a hill. Lorries didn't seem to do it.
AND I got my shoes and car carpets dirty yet again from stinking spilled diesel on a forecourt.
It was as bad as France.
Why do we have to put up with this dreadful pollution from individuals and companies running vehicles that interfere with other people's lives just to save a penny or tuppence a trip?
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Why do we have to put up with this dreadful pollution from individuals and companies running vehicles that interfere with other people's lives just to save a penny or tuppence a trip?
Mike, you really have an issue with diesels. As someone who has driven diesels for the last 15 years, I want to challenge your arguments.
I have just returned from my local MoT centre, where my 2005 Mondeo TDCi passed it's first MoT, at 43,500 miles, with no advisories. You may, or may not, be aware that a smoke meter reading is part of a diesel car's MoT test. Mine passed via 'Fast Pass', i.e., the first 'pedal to the floor' reading was well within acceptable limits, and no further attempts (to 'clear out the smoke') were necessary.
I agree that diesels will on occasion emit smoke, under hard acceleration, for a brief period. This is not a defect, and is allowed within stringent legislation. The black smoke consists almost entirely of PM10 (Particulate Matter < 10 microns). Yes, hi levels of PM10 have been associated with various forms of illness. But at least you can see it.
PM2.5 (particles less than 2.5microns) have the ability to travel much deeper into the lungs, and the implications of this are not fully understood. It is my understanding that petrol engines generate their fair share of PM 2.5 's - it just isn't visible.
As to getting diesel on your shoes. Yes, I guess that can happen. But spilled diesel is usually visible; pity you stood in it. Diesel isn't the only thing that you can stand on, and mess up your shoes and carpets - I guess it's a case of keeping your eyes open.
Finally, On a motorway journey at around 65-70mph, I typically return 60-63mpg (actual, not computer). So my savings are not "a penny or tuppence". Also, I produce a lot less CO2, and enjoy the benefit of a reduced road fund licence as a result.
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I hope the price of diesel cars doesn't fall and encourage sales. I've just returned from a visit to the UK where I was thoroughly fed up with being behind diesel cars - many of them nearly new - that belched clouds
I have had far far more issues with disgusting old petrol cars chucking out noxious fumes than diesels causing me to close all of my vents etc.
Diesel cars will give the occassional puff of black smoke when the throttle is nailed, but this is only momentary unless there is a serious engine problem, then we are back to the same argument that there are plenty of petrol cars aroiund with serious engine problems as well.
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I'm surprised that Mike gets fed up with Diesel cars belching black smoke over here as loads of Diesel cars are sold in France and on my regular trips to the South of France I have got stuck behind knackered Peugeot 305 Diesels smoking like old tramp steamers. On the excuse about worldwide demand and lack of refining capacity: sorry it doesn't wash. Diesel car sales have been climbing for years and these companis should have anticipated the demand and increased refining capacity, no excuse with their capacity. I thought the stuff needed less refining than petrol so that arguement is complete tosh. I read in Autocar this wee that Mercedes is accusing oil companies of profiteering and the fact that Derv can cost up to $1 a gallon more in the U.S is causing problems with their launch of Diesel cars in America.
{snipquote - what is it with some people not only quoting the full post to which they're replying to, but also putting it after their reply. Quote the message you're replying to first (only a brief summary), then add your reply}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 20/06/2008 at 02:05
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I reckon some older IDI diesel cars will appreciate once people realise they can run them on used veg oil. Nissan Primera 2.0D up to about 2001, for example. I'm now collecting oil for free, and even taking into account the set up of the filters, I can plan for fuel costing me around 30p/litre. The MPG is about the same, perhaps better....
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Don't you smell like a mobile chip shop or Indian take away or does the filtering take all that out?
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Today diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol but if market conditions change it could end up cheaper again. Whereas today a diesel engine is more economical than an equivalent performance petrol engine and it will always be that way.
If we really are facing a recession like we seem to be, then secondhand cars generally will become cheaper as more and more ex-new cars enter the secondhand market from cash-strapped private owners or fleet disposals from downsizing or bankrupted companies.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 19/06/2008 at 12:07
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It takes 20% more crude oil to produce a litre of diesel than petrol - duty is exactly the same
I wouldn't bet on diesel getting cheaper anytime soon, in fact as oil prices increase, so will the differential between the price of petrol & diesel
Taking into account high maintenance costs, I can't see why you would pay more for a 2nd hand diesel, it's probably worth less, it's just the historiacal bias that keeps prices high.
MVP
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I didn't think it was a fixed "yield", much depending on the nature of the crude oil. Gasoline usually requires more processing ( with increasingly recourse to heavier crudes, and the sour crudes) so may well require more energy input. But, as the link attached points out (Sparaxis is the contributor) its a co-process, and the actual costs and yields are variable. www.peakoil.com/fortopic8763.html However the producers profit margin seems greater on diesel at the moment.
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>>If we really are facing a recession like we seem to be, then secondhand cars generally will become cheaper as more and more ex-new cars enter the secondhand market from cash-strapped private owners or fleet disposals from downsizing or bankrupted companies.>>
Not so simple is it ? Won't the new sales also drop off as people can't afford new cars? That means less supply into the used market and prices go up. Both effects happening at the same time I reckon will mean prices of big, thirsty cars dropping like a stone, and prices of small, economical cars holding up or rising.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/06/2008 at 13:50
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The exhaust smells like a chip shop, yes. I don't smell it unless the windows are open in a traffic jam! I guess anyone following closely on a windless day would get quite a whiff.
Still, my carbon footprint is close to zero, as are my fuel bills!
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You did well to get your 1000L of filtered chip shop oil when you did onb. Saw a news item last night that said people were now scouring London chippies and trying to outbid one another, or something along those lines...
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But out here in leafy (and wealthy?) S Oxon that's not the case.
I sent out a mailshot to 25 possible outlets last week. I've had two no thanks, (one doesn't even deep fry) and two yes please, so that's about 150-200 litres a month already. One is one mile away, and the other is five miles. I'm going to follow up by phone next week, and then send another 25 letters. I'd like 300-400 litres a month to build up stock, and so I can supply a chum.
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oldnotbold
Presumably these are businesses that you buy off? Are you a registered waste transport or disposal contractor? Are you aware of the money-making "points-win-prizes" racket that the Environment Agency have now got set up? [600 new inspectors since '06]
The producers would get around £5000 in penalties for not disposing of waste to an approved contractor and waste-tracing documentation deficiencies; if they didn't tell the EA who took the waste, they'd then get hit with eye-watering charges until they did.
You'd get done for transporting waste without a licence and many other penalties - they just make them up; there's no practical appeal route.
If you're making bio-diesel other than for your own use, then HMRC would also get involved - and they have slightly more powers than the Gestapo!
If you're using large quantities of methanol as a solvent; does the council know and do you have Fire Brigade clearance to store it? The EA will need to know about that too.
Or is ignoring the laws, that all other businesses are lumbered with, part of the fun?
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Screwloose:
1. I don't buy the oil I collect. I bought 1000 litres of prepared oil a while back to try out.
2. EA exemption exists for me to carry and use the waste for personal use. I issue a WTN that is approved by the EA, and I'll keep the paperwork for the statutory seven years. I have a letter from my local EA office covering/confirming all the above
3. I don't make bio.
4. Methanol - See above
I'm fully complaint with all EA regs, and I've done my homework. I'm allowed to store 5,000 litres of waste oil. Selling WVO is fine, as it's not compliant with any EN/DIN for fuel.
Edited by oldnotbold on 19/06/2008 at 17:29
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ONB, do you have to inform your household insurers that you store up to 5000L of inflamables on site and do they load your premium?
Having had a neighbours garage "catch" fire some 100 feet or so from my house and seen the carnage with just an MGF, mower and other general household combustables I find 5000L of inflamables potentially being stored unknown to me by a neighbour alarming.
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The flash point of waste veg oil is 320C (diesel is around 60C, petrol less than 38C). It's safer to store than firewood, by a very long way. I've poured it onto a small fire, and it extinguished it!
And yes, I've advised the insurers. They thought I was odd, but were happy once they'd seen the EA regs on storage.
It's stored 200m from my neighbour's house, and about 100m from mine. I live out in the sticks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
Edited by oldnotbold on 19/06/2008 at 17:48
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ONB, do you have to inform your household insurers that you store up to 5000L of inflamables on site and do they load your premium?
I have three types of extra virgin olive oil in my kitchen, plus a deep fat fryer and supplies for it, and often the old WVO, plus a block or two of butter. I don't feel the need to inform my insurers... Have you ever tried setting fire to the stuff?
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I have three types of extra virgin olive oil in my kitchen plus a deep fat fryer and supplies for it and often the old WVO plus a block or two of butter. I don't feel the need to inform my insurers... Have you ever tried setting fire to the stuff?
So you have the same amount as most reasonable households! I can almost gaurantee there is other combustables stored around too. My point being someone could do this who lives in the middle of a row of terraced houses in a lean too shed.
If I was a fireman I'd like to know if I were standing next to 5000L of oil, I've seen a chip pan fire, that was cooking oil too.
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The reason the chip pan caught fire was because it was left on the cooker. I don't have a cooker big enough (or a pan) to put 5000l on and leave it for 30 mins to get to >300C
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The slighlty woorying thing for me would be a fire starting & then heating-up a large container of re-cycled (vegetable) oil. Although the flash-point of veg. oil might be high-ish & so make it seem safe, in fact its autoignition point is in the same range as petrol, i.e. the temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite. If your large containers have any air in them, an external fire heating them to this temperature could well cause ignition - once burning (or exploding maybe, with the sudden expansion of the container) the calorific value is at least that of petrol - so quite a conflagration potentially!
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large container of re-cycled (vegetable) oil. Although the flash-point of veg. oil might be high-ish & so make it seem safe in fact its autoignition point is in the same range as petrol i.e. the temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite. If your
Indeed, what that ACTUALLY proves is that if autoignition is all you worry about, petrol is just as safe as the olive oil that you pour over your salad.
Quit scaremongering. Your problem is that with your woodbines you are stuck with flashpoint - which for petrol is below room temperature, but for diesel is high. ;)
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The reason the chip pan caught fire was because it was left on the cooker. I don't have a cooker big enough (or a pan) to put 5000l on and leave it for 30 mins to get to >300C
I'm not having a go at you, you seem to have a good safe set up, however anyone could do the same in a built up area with other inflamables around, a car for instance. The fire at my neighbours propperty burned for over 30 minutes and we're 5 minutes from the station and its "up to" 5000 litres, a 1000 litre would heat up 5 times quicker.
Does anyone remember the chap with dustbins full of petrol stored in his living room? maybe he's now a veggie convert living next door to your mother / child / whoever
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My point being someone could do this who livesin the middle of a row of terraced houses in a lean too shed. If I was a fireman I'd like to know if I were standing next to 5000L of oil I've seen a chip pan fire that was cooking oil too.
Was done a few years ago if I remember rightly - but i think he stored petrol though less than 5k litres!
And no, the firemen were not impressed!!
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"Or is ignoring the laws, that all other businesses are lumbered with, part of the fun? "
A bit presumptuous of you, perhaps?
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A bit presumptuous of you perhaps?
Clearly - you seem to have gone into it in surprising depth and taken a great deal of time and trouble exploiting the loopholes - I can't see many others being so conscientious. I'd still be wary of an EA jobsworth though.
I thought the flashpoint of palm oil was around 210C? Stats are set at 190C max on a frying range.
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As far as I know I'm not collecting any palm oil. I get to see the packaging, as people empty the fryer into the cannister the oil came in. It's mostly soya oil, some rapeseed.
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And how come if we're struggling so much new cars sell at all? They can't all be business purchases can they?
If I've interpreted correctly this What Car? article, then approximately 50% of new car sales are business purchases, and 50% private. tinyurl.com/36wl4t
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