Just been sent Ford's internal memo:-
Kuga fitted with 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel engine. - VEHICLE HOLD
The vehicle engineering team are currently investigating a concern where the MIL may illuminate and the vehicle enter Limited Operation Strategy (LOS) due to a blocked diesel particulate Filter (DPF).
Dealer action.
Affected vehicles must be held within your dealership and not released to a customer until further notice.
Vehicles can continue to be used for demonstration purposes or drive events.
Kuga -- 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel (135 PS) Build 19/10/2007 - 21/5/2008
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It staggers me that things like this aren't picked up the testing programme when the car is developed.
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"The vehicle engineering team are currently investigating a concern where the MIL may illuminate and the vehicle enter Limited Operation Strategy (LOS) due to a blocked diesel particulate Filter (DPF). "
They should never have let the mother-in-law get lit up..... :)
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Kuga -- 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel (135 PS) Build 19/10/2007 - 21/5/2008
Does that date range imply that it may be a bad batch of some part or a production line misassembly?
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Given the level of buy-backs of mis-sold DPF cars acrossall manufacturers; are Ford thinking the problem is unfixable and considering crushing them? I'm told that the dealers have irate customers looking at their fully paid-for car through the compound fence - and they are not even allowed to let them sit in it.
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Not heard about these 'buy backs', can you expand please?
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>>They should never have let the mother-in-law get lit up
It's how she used to time her boiled eggs, and the fag-ash stirred into the mashed potatoes added a certain 'je ne sais quois', bless her dear departed soul ;>)
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Yes this is a repeat of the Qashqai problem:
"The DPF filter which is on these cars removes particles from the exhaust to make it more environmentally friendly but can only reach temps to burn off these particles when the engine runs at 50mph for long periods (30 mins-60 mins) everyday.
As I only drive my car through town on roads which have a speed limit no more than 40mph, the DPF warning light comes on every 2 weeks, if we do not drive the car at the correct speed for the correct time, this DPF warning light turns into a engine malfunction. To correct this engine malfunction, my car has to go back to the dealer to be regenerated where the oil and filter are changed costing approx. £200 a go.
Nopbody warned us of this issue when we bought the car, and the dealer told us that all owners would be recieving a letter advising customers that this isn't covered by the warranty but we are still yet to recieve ours."
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I'm aware that car manufacturers do seem to be oblivious to modern customer legislation, but surely the statement ..."the dealer told us that all owners would be receiving a letter advising customers that this isn't covered by the warranty..." is covered by the Sales of Goods Act as "not fit for purpose" or of "unmerchantable quality"?
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It's another example of car manufacturers not living in the real world.
They design a car which is allegedly environmentally friendly but which will only be so if driven in a particular way.
Not good enough.
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Why didn't they design the DPF setup so that a small amount of additive helps clean the DPF, like Peugeot/Citroen do (not that I'm a Pug-Cit fan) ?
VW-Audi are also having similar probs with their recent diesel engined cars, although VaG diesel have a software initiated regen mode which artificially rasies the EGT to help burn off the DPF.
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DPF, `holds it back` and sweetly goes about bottling it up. That passes emission legislation.
Every so often it does a massive dump of toxicity into the environment. Its bad luck if you`re behind one when it does this because its like an afterburner being lit on a fast jet. A loud `firework in a drainpipe` roaring and a 20 foot jet of yellow flame and soot out the back.
That`s called progress.
We are still waiting for serendipity to set them all off at the same time and send a dense cloud of acid rain as a free gift to Belgium.
If cars are like that, think of a UK transporter with its allegedly`British-Crawler-nuts-and crackers-head-bone-connected-to-the-leg-bone` engine, no wonder the cars on the racks have no paint left on their subframes after that lets go..
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At least VW has a warning in their brochure:
"Please note, driving conditions within inner-cities and the Channel Islands
may not provide optimum conditions for the use of DPF technology. Therefore,
it is advised that you consider this before ordering your vehicle with DPF."
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I have it on what I believe to be good authority that if one uses 'premium' diesel (BP Ultimate, Shell V-Power, Total Excellium) then the DPF is unlikely ever to reach regeneration point, in addition to keeping the injectors clean. This is because, apart from a superior additive package, these fuels are made from gas, not distilled as a fraction of crude oil which contains variable amounts of other crud.
I don't have a DPF but perhaps there is one of our number who has run DPF with premium diesel? Most Euro 4/5 diesels should get better mpg from the premium fuels which gives some offset to the cost.
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Yes this is a repeat of the Qashqai problem: "The DPF filter which is on these cars removes particles from the exhaust to make it more environmentally friendly but can only reach temps to burn off these particles when the engine runs at 50mph for long periods (30 mins-60 mins) everyday.
There must be very few people who fit that usage profile.
Even those who are unfortunate enough to have a longish commute generally wouldn't be doing it traffic conditions that would enable a decent speed to be maintained for that length of time.
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in reply to colinh:At least VW has a warning in their brochure: "Please note, driving conditions ... Therefore, it is advised that you consider this before ordering your vehicle with DPF." ..
Perhaps in future car sales will be governed by similar rules to those in force to prvent misselling by financial advisors; car salesman should have to fill in a questionnaire asking you about your typical car use, and then advise you accordingly to buy or not-buy certain models.
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then advise you accordingly to buy or not-buy certain models.
Why not design the car in such a way everyone can buy it?
What if you change job and your usage pattern changes?
Personally, I won't buy cars which have - no temp. gauge, electronic parking brakes, glue instead of spare wheel, keyless entry and now DPF.
Unfortunately, the way manufactures conspiring - soon there won't be any car left for me in market :)
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Movilogo, reminds me of the time F1 first went to ITV and I kept a list of all the companies ruining the programme in the ad breaks and vowed not to do buisiness with them. Gave up when I realised I would have to grow a beard and kill the telephone.
Edited by Aretas on 16/06/2008 at 21:18
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From my experience of Euro IV and DPF:
- My Mondeo MkIII Euro IV did not need a DPF.... so why the need for all the latest cars to be EuroIV? I assume it's to get information/experience before Euro V and VI.
- My Mazda6 has a DPF and I've noticed it regenerate twice in nearly 5000 miles. I do a lot of stop/start/short-distance drives. It will only regenerate periodically when (A) needed and (B) you're going fast enough. It dumps more diesel in the exhaust to "assist" this and that is the regen process.... i.e. increase the temperature.
- If the DPF becomes blocked then you have not driven in the way necessary to regenerate in time and need to do some high speed/high rev driving for a period and failure to do so will eventually result in a dealership trip.
As I say I do a lot of local/short trips as well as some long ones and no problems yet....
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My Focus has a DPF and I wouldn't buy a diesel car without one. I care about other peoples health and don't want my motoring impacting another persons health and wellbeing. The DPF has never given any problems over tens of thousands of miles.
A DPF collects the diesel particulates that a Euro IV without a DPF will pump out of the exhaust which may in turn end up inside someones lungs and cause health problems and/or kill contribute to their death.
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Kuga was advertized on TV last night.
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Whats the legislation on these DPFs then? Are they going to to be made compulsory (like Cats etc) over the coming years?
If so, I'll make sure any future car I buy doesn't have one. Sounds like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut really.
But then, common sense goes out of the window when 'green' and 'emissions' are mentioned!
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SFAIK a car doesn't have to have a DPF if the engine can be made to comply with EURO IV standards without one. I am sitting at home waiting for my Pug dealer to ring me at tell me I need a 2nd mortgage to pay for my 4 year/48K mile service which could include a new DPF @ £700, if it needs one! OUCH! All this and my fuel @130p/litre.
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Sounds like Dyson need to adapt his doble vortex vacuum cleaner arrangement for diesel car exhausts. Being able to simply dispose of a pot of soot would be a more attractive option.
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HJ
Ford really should improve their dealer communications - or is that a classic of double-speak?
It's actually reads true both ways - as far as it goes... There must have been DPF checks to identify the problem; they've always remained on sale and they may be flooding out of the showrooms - but are they being delivered?
A long-standing dealer group hadn't been told on Sunday and I've checked with a NE-based friend in a major Ford chain and the direct quote from the workface is "No news at the minute; still on hold, mate."
Perhaps someone should sell them a fax machine...?
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I've checked with a NE-based friend in a major Ford chain and the direct quote from the workface is "No news at the minute; still on hold, mate."
tell your mate to contact:
Executive Director, Comms & Public Affairs , Ford of Britain
and quote the info in this thread as given to HJ by the Exec Director.
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Update.
The problem is nothing to do with the DPF; it's chafing of the air intake pipe to the engine causing it to run lean and damage the engine.
Modified intake pipes are being distributed and those cars can then be released. A recall will be issued for any already delivered.
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Honest John wrote: 'So having got an official answer, that's as far as I can go. I can't question it...'
HJ,
Questioning Ford's - or anybody else's - chief of spin is exactly what you should be doing.
Of course, if you get a name for being difficult, when it comes to borrowing that £30k super model from the press fleet, you might find: 'sorry, they're all out, mate'.
Don't ever fall into the trap of thinking the press officer is your friend - he will stab you in the back - or front - as soon as look at you.
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Questioning Ford's - or anybody else's - chief of spin is exactly what you should be doing.
That's not how things work though, and if push came to shove, it's dangerous territory - the original reason for the hold turns out to be completly wrong.
The public face of Ford says there's no problem - so HJ could get into a back and forth argument about whether it's true or not. He can't quote dealers as they'd probably be fired. In the meantime Ford fixes the problem and the cars are released.
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.. so HJ could get into a back and forth argument about whether it's true or not.
i think this thread is a good illustration why this site has a "no naming and shaming policy"
In his very first post, Screwloose titled it "Kuga sales suspended".
So that means all Kuga models.
In that post he said "I'm told that Ford have banned the supply of all models, even those that have been paid for and are already at the dealers, due to insuperable problems with the DPF blocking".
So he said "banned the supply of all models".
he gave the reason as "problems with DPF blocking".
Then in a later post, Screwloose contradicted that by stating that only one model was affected : "Kuga fitted with 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel engine. - VEHICLE HOLD"
In a 3rd post, Screwloose now says "Update.
The problem is nothing to do with the DPF; it's chafing of the air intake pipe to the engine causing it to run lean and damage the engine.
Modified intake pipes are being distributed and those cars can then be released. A recall will be issued for any already delivered. "
Along the way, Screwloose asked "Did Ford's Press Officer once work for NuLabour?".
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Then in a later post Screwloose contradicted that by stating that only one model was affected : "Kuga fitted with 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel engine. - VEHICLE HOLD"
I'd like to see you get one with a different engine....
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jbif
Good rant; shame about the facts.
Are you really calling for a ban on naming and shaming car manufacturers? "My car - can't say what - has broken....?"
There was no contradiction at all; there is only one engine available - the 2.0ltr Duratorque. So if that engine is affected, then all versions/trim levels of Kugas are affected....
Ford had banned the delivery of all models. That internal memo was fairly explicit; THEY said that it was due to DPF problems - not my words.
As of yesterday; my contacts [and I have to be very careful not to expose them - Ford would likely sack them on the spot] advised that they were still on hold. I took the trouble to check the current situation late today and that is where the latest info on the actual fault came from.
As to the NuLabour reference; that was a suggestion [that looks to have been justified] that Ford's PR dept was peddling SPIN - or do you implicitly believe every word the Government says too.
So; who gave you the correct info: their weasel-worded statements - or.....?
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Something not quite right here. Diesel engines always run "lean", if they don't you get black soot from unburned fuel. Running lean wouldn't damage the engine.
Is it not the other way round? Intake pipe damaged, insufficient air getting into the engine, and the resulting soot blocks the DPF quickly?
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Quinny
You could well be right. A leak after the MAF would certainly affect power, as insufficient fuel would be injected for the actual air volume; but exactly what it would damage was unclear.
This was a verbal comment relayed by a non-technical source at a dealers; so it could well be poorly phrased.
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Reading this makes me glad I ordered the Octavia without the DPF! Oddly emissions are the same with or without but lease cost with is higher with one!
And if Honda could meet Euro IV with their FIRST diesel without a DPF why do all the others need DPFs?
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jbif Good rant; shame about the facts.
Screwloose: I quoted your posts. Not my words, yours.
If I had been reporting what you did, I would have prefixed my reporting with "allegedly".
I said this thread was a good illustration regarding naming and shaming - because it illustrates how "facts" can turn out to be not the whole truth. After all, as the site policy says "You may know that what you say is absolutely true but the moderators and Honestjohn do not, and don?t have the time to find out. If what you say is not true, then this represents a serious issue for the website. It is not a risk that we will take. Personal Liability
Any Backroomer assumes full personal responsibility and legal liability for his/her postings.
Backroomers will be liable for the full cost of any legal action and any damages, and for reimbursing the site publisher for all costs or damages imposed on the publisher for any alleged slander, libel or defamation of any kind of any person or organisation that Backroomer may post in The Backroom.
"
So when you say
"That internal memo was fairly explicit; THEY said that it was due to DPF problems - not my words."
all I can do is point you to HJ's reply
"So having got an official answer, that's as far as I can go. I can' question it with a "but Screwloose says...." whatever you have found out and however accurate that might be.".
I do value the technical information you have provided [in this thread and others too] and thank you for it, but please note that my reply which you think is rant was in response to Bill Payer's comment "so HJ could get into a back and forth argument about whether it's true or not. " So until there is confirmation of the "facts", this thread IMO is about alleged problems with the Kuga.
Edited by jbif on 18/06/2008 at 11:29
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And in the meantime back to motoring, and less of the nit picking.
HJ is happy with the content of this thread, so that's good enough for me.
DD
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Reading this makes me glad I ordered the Octavia without the DPF! Oddly emissions >> are the same with or without but lease cost with is higher with one!
And if Honda could meet Euro IV with their FIRST diesel without a DPF why do all >> the others need DPFs?
The engines you refer to comply with Euro IV but the addition of a DPF helps collect diesel particulates and then safely vaporises them, whereas a Euro IV without a DPF chucks the particulates out of the exhaust and anyone can breath them in, which in turn can cause/aggravate health/lung conditions.
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You miss the point - Honda could meet the spec without a DPF, many others need a DPF to meet the spec. The Honda is no dirtier because it does not have one.
All the DPF does is filter out particles but if the engine does not produce them in the first place it is not needed (Same argument applies to lean burn and cats - but the cat producers won). Have you seen a Honda diesel smoking as much as the VAG/PSA engines do? I have not.
Meeting Euro V would make it cleaner, meeting Euro IV with a DPF does not.
Many would take issue with the phrase "safely vaporises" - it is a poorly controlled combustion in low oxygen (it is in an exhaust system after all) which will produce CO, CO2, NO and many other gases and almost certainly does not vaporise it all!
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HJ wrote: I don't know where ifithelps gets the idea I should bite the hand that feeds my business when there is still some doubt about who is correct. Maybe he makes a habit of arguing with his boss. Or telling his customers that they're always wrong.'
HJ,
The one line response from Ford was inadequate and as you point out there is doubt about who is correct.
All I am saying is Ford should be pressed a bit to resolve that doubt, rather than just accept the first answer.
That's not arguing or biting any hands, it's just doing what journalists do - ask questions and doing so with a bit of tenacity when required.
Why don't you indulge in a bit of sarky speculation about Ford, as you have about me in the quote above?
The answer is that I'm a powerless private citizen, and they are an enormous company with power, influence and a huge advertising budget to spend.
Easy target/hard target -take the easy one every time.
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You aren't being entirely fair ifithelps. You and I as powerless individuals can say what we like about Ford up to and including criminal libel, and Ford won't bother with us in most circumstances.
HJ however is in a profession which is eagerly monitored by Ford's and everyone else's jobsworths. If they get too upset they can make his life quite a lot more difficult with as it were a whispered remark or stroke of the pen.
I've done a bit of hacking but hardly any motoring hacking although I would have liked to (along with many eager young beavers). The only time it looked as if I might get a proper connection, the connection was fired after a piece of journalism of the sort you seem to be recommending, clearly insulting to a major European car maker. I posted an account of the story here once, and mrmender, whose posts I have been missing lately, sussed the magazine and the manufacturer having seen the piece of journalism in question.
You can mess with these people, but you have to be a bit careful. It is obvious to anyone who reads HJ's Telegraph stuff that he is on the motorist's, not the industry's, side really.
Edited by Lud on 18/06/2008 at 21:17
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"chucks the particulates out of the exhaust and anyone can breath them in, which in turn can cause/aggravate health/lung conditions."
Allegedly...
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>>Kuga sales suspended
>>
but they were still advertising them on mainstream TV tonight.
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but they were still advertising them on mainstream TV tonight.
Did I ever say that they'd stopped marketing them?
I said that "I was told" that deliveries had been suspended. The source was impeccable and it turned out to be true.
I said that Ford were blaming DPF problems; that has now also turned out to be true.
[And no, I'm not saying any more about the FSA that explains the weird causitive link from an intake pipe chafing to DPF problems. Acquire one for yourselves.]
Rest assured that the next time I become aware of any issue that could benefit wider distribution - after all this negativity, I'll keep it to myself.
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>>Did I ever say that they'd stopped marketing them?
I have not checked :-)
Who said "Kuga sales suspended" ?
Let me spell it out then. To me it seems a little strange advertising a product that one cannot go out, hand over money and get the product ! Hence my simple observation.
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>>after all this negativity, I'll keep it to myself.
It is your choice if you do not want to discuss it. :-(
I thought your thread was very interesting and helpful to some readers.
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Let me spell it out then. To me it seems a little strange advertising a product that one cannot go out hand over money and get the product ! Hence my simple observation.
That's not strange at all - the ad slots would have been booked some time ago and pulling TV ads really could set alarm bells ringing. Also Ford probably reckon they can sort this pretty quickly so why break the thrust of the marketing campaign (and that also explains Ford PR's flat "no problem" answer).
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Reply to Lud above.
Lud,
You - and HJ - seem to think I'm advocating some sort of nuclear option - I'm not, just a bit more persistent questioning.
As you say, HJ appears to be more of the motorists' friend than many motoring hacks - a pen name can have its uses in publishing.
Interesting, don't you think, the more freedoms we have in some directions - internet etc - the less we have in others.
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You - and HJ - seem to think I'm advocating some sort of nuclear option - I'm not just a bit more persistent questioning.
I think you're being a bit simplistic to be honest. I've had involvement with multinational company corporate PR (in the high tech industry) and it's an incredibly sensitive, and controlled, environment. They won't say anything without running it past their legal people, for example.
HJ would be effectively calling the Ford PR guy a liar (that's how questioning what these people say is received) and that's not condusive to the ongoing working relationship which is necessary for both of them to do their jobs.
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The Kuga is still on sale as normal in Spain and no one "in the know" has heard of any DPF problems. This from my dealings with a local dealer every day this week as they are valiantly trying to get a new power steering pipe for my new (company) Focus TDCi, which committed hara kiri at 4 days of age.
If driving at 50 for at least half an hour daily is the key to keeping the Kuga happy, then it's absolutely ideal for drivers in the north of Spain, who rev the nuts off their (mostly diesel) cars at all hours, speed cameras or not.
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BP is right in saying Ad slots are booked a long time ahead but Ford could have inserted a Focus or Mondeo ad instead.
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The engines you refer to comply with Euro IV but the addition of a DPF helps collect diesel particulates and then safely vaporises them whereas a Euro IV without a DPF chucks the particulates out of the exhaust and anyone can breath them in which in turn can cause/aggravate health/lung conditions.
Can I comment here that much of the health concerns of diesel particulate matter (PM) relate back to studies done in American cities in the 1950's / 1960's. PM production in the modern diesel car is only a tiny percentage of what was happening 40 to 50 years ago.
Even a Euro III engine is producing far less PM than previous generations. My Mk3 Mondeo TDCi is Euro IV, but thankfully without a DPF.
I therefore question arguments that rely on the extrapolation of 50 year old data, when so much has changed.
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