I think you need to approach your council - A Road Safety Audit would have been made on the new roundabout and should have included this problem, however I would imagine your garage access would have been easily overlooked. There is a solution, probably in preventing parking by some means near your garage. Speak to the Highway's Dept. There would have been an individual in charge of the mini-roundabout development - that's the guy you need to speak to.
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Could you try offering him money to allow you to turn? It'd probably need a contract, but may work - as it is how would you like it if everyone used your land to turn? A little fed up by any chance??!
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How long have you had unrestricted access for? Was it 13 years? Can't you acquire "squatters rights" after 12 years?
Might be worth enquiring of a legal eagle, I expect Pugugly will be along in a minute and quote Rex v Bloggs in 1670 or something.
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if someone knocked on my door and asked me to keep my gates open or move them so that all and sundry could use my property to turn around on i'd tell them where to go.
The obvious solution to me is to put another door on the back of your garage, so that you can drive right through it into your garden, turn around and have the car facing a different direction
if that's not convenient and not what you'd like your garden to be used for, then i'd imagine that's what the other chap was thinking when he installed his gates
just as an aside, if this neighbour started parking his car on his own land in just the place you like to turn in, would you consider him anti-social for parking there...on his own property?
Edited by Westpig on 05/06/2008 at 20:38
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Would it be possible to reverse off the main road and up your lane, then drive into the garage forwards? That way you would be facing the right way for coming out and joining the main road. In other words, do the less dangerous manoeuvre when entering, rather than leaving, the lane.
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thanks for all the advice so far. In response to various posts....
There is no possiblility of changing the access, garden use or approach to the garage. The lane is literally two car width's wide at the point my garage accesses it. As i said earlier in response to posters who state that they would not want want someone using their drive to turn into, I accept that this is his land and he can do what he wants - no arguement.
Talking on the phone to another neighbour last night he states that he has lived there for 30 years (the guy who has erected the gates has lived there even longer) and people have always been capable of turning around here.
If I was to insist that there were double yellows to the right of my garage then I would be depriving a neigbour of a parking spot, however that would sort my problem out, but not the other 5/6 cars who all have the same issue.
However as I also stated the new junction prevents safe access by backing out onto the main road.
PG will take your advice and speak to the council's mini roundabout man (who has already been made aware of the limited visibility since the new road design).
There has always been a live and let live attitiude on the lane with respect to parking since we moved in, and we have always respected this, however the dynamics have now changed and as I have read numerous times on this site, parking is a hugely contentious issue. In my case, coupled with other neighbours it's about access to the main road safely.
I'm going to speak to the guy tonight and see if there is a reasonable way in which this can be sorted.
I'll post later - once again thanks for all useful posts.
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An Update
Went to see the neighbours on Saturday morning and they will not move the gate backwards, they would have been prepared to do so but for the hurtful comments that they have received from a number of people who live in the lane who have the same problem as me. They believe that was has been said cannot be unsaid. They also beleive that even if they did move the gates back then people (not from our lane) would use this space to park and thus block access to their property. I have spoken to the neighbour(s) who said / wrote these commnents but they will not retract their statements.
Two of the neighbours are now threatening to take the guy to court about their access rights to an old well, which happens to be on his land. However as we all know this will take time/money and no-one usually wins.
So impasse reigns. In the short term the neighbour has said that I can open his gates to turn my car around so I guess that's a result of sorts but the same treatment will not apply to those neighbours who have said / written stuff in the heat of the moment.
The neighbours who have erected the gate are now considering moving, which in a way might solve the problem in the short term but not in the long term, as a new occupant could move the gates all the way forward, and as other posters have stated using their land to turn around is not really acceptable.
So this morning I will speak to the highway engineer explaining the facts behind the matter. Another development was that the tenant farmer has stated that we can leave the outer gate open to his field to turn vehicles around there. OK in the summer but the area is extremely muddy and will be a problem in the winter.
On a personal note the whole atmosphere in the lane has changed, there is a frosty mood and I am the only person in contact with both parties in this dispute. I have thought about independent arbitration but not sure where would be a good place to start. Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated. In a way I feel I have failed to resolve this situation despite my best negotiating skills and the whole thing is quite depressing.
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Paul, any idea why this has happnned? It seems to have come a bit "out of the blue" for you - I wonder if those other neighbours have been taking the "p" and this is his reaction to it? At least you and he are still on talking terms which is a good thing....
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The root cause was one of the children who live in the lane throwing a stick which landed on this neighbours vintage car, which he spent years building. It didn't actually cause damage but that would appear to have been the last straw.
The neighbours in question have fallen out at various stages with everybody in the lane except me and as you say the fact that I am still on speaking terms is something. They stated that various neighbours have been using their driveway without asking permission (which is purely common courtesy in my view) and this is perhaps another reason why they have done it. I stated that I was upset when they took this action without speaking to anyone first (including me), but I was trying to seek a settlement that would appeal to them.
Maybe this has forced the issue overall, because to use this guy's drive is not acceptable, however as we all know councils will move in slow and mysterious ways and I emphathise with neighbours feelings who believe that their families are in danger by backing out onto a main road. As always it's not what was said rather the way in which it was stated.
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Another development was that the tenant farmer has stated that we can leave the outer gate open to his field to turn vehicles around there. OK in the summer but the area is extremely muddy and will be a problem in the winter.
Why don't see whether you can all club together to get the the entrance to the field surfaced? None of you should expect a solution that will not cost anyone anything.
Edited by L'escargot on 09/06/2008 at 10:55
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You beat me to it, L'Es! I was just reading Paul's reply and thinking the same thing - perhaps you could see if the farmer would allow you to resite the gates so he still has two but also has a space for you to turnround which you could then surface?
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Scoop off the top 12". Put good crushed concrete to 6", and top it with road planings. Make sure all well tamped in using a good powered ride on roller. Co-ordinate the materials well and you'd have it done by lunchtime.
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I can understand that the guy doesn't want people turning round in his drive - I think he has been very tolerant to put up with it for so many years. I am also wondering if they were already thinking of moving house and wanted to put an end to the use of their drive to make the house more saleable - I would not consider buying a property where others had access for turning. It sounds like you have been quite reasonable over his changes whilst other neighbours have been insensitive.
Would it be feasible to purchase land from the farmer to increase access? You could never build on it but it may be a long term solution that, whilst expensive, would be recouped if you ever wanted to sell.
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The farmer won't want to sell you the land. They never do unless it's for building on. Imagine the fuss if he sold it, it changed hands a few times, and the new owner then prevented access to the farmer.
Your best bet is a gentlemen's agreement. Shift the gates back XX metres, you pay for the work, and he gets access. Bear in mind that passers by may think it's a lay-by. Courting couples may thank you!
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I wouldn't go as far as resurfacing it. If/when it gets too muddy to drive on, I would just ask the farmer (paying him) to put some hardcore down. You might have to do every now and then, but a couple of tons of chippings should not be too much
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The neighbours I had talked to had all discussed the possibliity of buying a cars width / length of land and putting some hardstanding on it and using it purely as a turning circle, this would allow the farmer to continue to use his land i.e. the gate would move back a cars length and hey presto a solution.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you have to inform a new buyer of potential disputes you have with neighbours prior to selling / as part of the selling process?
Another neighbour suggested that you have to be able to close the gates after exiting the drive without obstructing the lane, in other words when the neigbour got out of his car to close the gates he would have to still be on his drive. I could understand the logic of this on a "main road" but possibly not a quiet(ish) lane.
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Paul, why can`t you reverse up your short bit of lane and go into your garage nose first after having passed it, thus being the right way round for coming out of the lane end, next time out? Had a look at the map, it looks less than 100 yards.
Regarding him having to stand on his own land to close his own gate....?? Maybe I`m reading that wrong, but it seems like your neighbours would like him to not stand on the pavement to close own his gate!
Trying to look at it objectively, it just seems to me that the guy with the gates is `regularising` his situation and putting it like it should have been all along.
I find it astounding that `the neighbours` seem to have been using his property as a turning space for decades and now allegedly turn on him when he wants or needs to `normalise his situation!
When you think what irritation having `neighbours` and their families and friends using your drive as a turning space for decades could cause....
Edited by oilrag on 09/06/2008 at 13:11
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oilrag
I will try what you say, although this would require backing down the lane from the main road, with parked cars / raised cobblestones (I have already kerbed my alloys on these before now...). I genuinely believe that the radii are too tight to allow this, however it's worth a go (in the daylight with SWMBO checking the gaps!!), I have never gone forwards into the garage but there's always a first time.
As I have explained to all the neighbours it is his right to protect his property and erect these gates, legally we do not have a leg to stand on, but as you say the irratation has probably got too much to bear. I get upset if someone parks in front of my garage door or next to my house, preventing me from getting out. (which incidentally prevents this guy from getting out of his drive forwards as well) so I know how he feels. There is one part of me which would suggest going for double yellow lines so i can always turn right out onto the main road, but as I said this would deprive someone else of a parking space.
Maybe a meeting at a neutral venue would help (my house perhaps?) and tempers can cool down in time but I could be setting myself up for failure big time.
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Dave,
My concern would be turning a `regularised` (as it should always have been) situation that just needs adjusting to, into something much worse.
We all know neighbour disputes have to be declared to solicitors at house resale, if a whole `cluster of houses` is in dispute what`s that going to do?
I would be far more worried about that and some of the neighbours alleged behaviours, comments etc. Is that far more worrying and property price depressing than the gate situation? Who would want to live amongst them?
As there is seemingly a tendency for Forums to propagate far and wide permanently on the Usenet and with that Google Maps reference pinpointing you all..
I`m concerned that you may be easily identifiable...
With the greatest of respect, you may wish to consider asking the Mods to delete your map reference and perhaps, more.
My advice? Keep your head down, get on with life and adjust to the situation as it does not seem unjust.
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 09/06/2008 at 13:58
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OR - I agree - good advice
With the greatest of respect you may wish to consider asking the Mods to delete your map reference and perhaps more.
Mods can you delete my reference on Google Earth - thanks
The long term solution is not to use this guys' property anyway so that is what I intend pursuing.
Cheers
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Sorry for calling you `Dave` Paul ;)
You could email the Mods or click on the `reprt as offensive` button below the relevant post.
All the best ;)
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Mods can you delete my reference on Google Earth - thanks
Done.
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We all know neighbour disputes have to be declared to solicitors at house resale ...........
I'm not sure this comes into the category of a dispute between neighbours. The house owner has the absolute right to not allow neighbours to drive on his property. The neighbours might not like it, but there's no dispute over whether they can drive on his property or not. At the most there's bad feeling, but that is not the same as a dispute.
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I'd have thought it did - but worth checking?!
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I still think that there is an issue for Highways - they appear to have messed up here. I would seek specialist advice if you don't get anywhere with them
Edited by Pugugly on 09/06/2008 at 19:34
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I can't see where the dispute could have arisen.
The neighbour had previously turned a blind eye to people using his curtilage to turn their cars round, but then fenced in the land. So long as he's only fenced in his land, and no-one else's, no dispute has arisen. He's done nothing wrong, and unless one of the neighbours tears down the fence, then they've done nothing wrong either.
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