i've been done at my local one...and it's only 400 yards up the road from where i live. Well known chain, what you'd consider to be a good brand. I don't think it's a coincidence that they only had a temporary manager there at the time, because after sorting it out with my bank (who were excellent) i went and moaned to the garage management. In fairness they followed it up etc, but not necessarily to a satisfactory conclusion i.e. they didn't work out who'd done it, despite narrowing my transaction down and looking at it on camera... or maybe they did and just got rid of the staff member.
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I think this has become more widespread, now national.
About 2 years ago, I used my debit card in my semi-local
filling station at Stonehouse, Lanarkshire. Within a couple
of weeks, a number of odd transactions appeared on my
statement, mostly to catalogue companies. Off I went to
the local police station, and the policeman at the desk, without
prompting, asked if I'd used the filling station in question.
What seemed to be happening was: the station issued a full
receipt that included the entire card number. It was then easy
for this to be copied there and then, or, if you were dozy and
put it in the station's bin, for it to be fished out.
Nowadays, I see that they mask most of the card number, apart
from the last 5 digits or so.
theterranaut
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i always use a top up mastercard to pay for fuel that way it never has more then £50 quid on it and no need to worry about cloning
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The "well-known chain" is an example of a franchised operation - not centrally managed except for the branding. Open to all and sundry to exploit the tills, esp. funding for certain insurrections in the Far East. Cash only in unfamiliar filling stations, I suggest.
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Most of the cloning was done by double swiping the card - once on the company's machine and once on a dodgy one.
Petrol stations were a good bet because you had to hand the card over - the assistant could then use sleight of hand/pretend to drop it to do the dodgy swipe.
In the examples above, I wonder if the swipe machine is on the customer's side of the partition, as many now are.
With the chip and pin system installed in a filling station, the assistant does not touch your card, which should make cloning impossible.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of criminals, though.
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One of the issues is whether the swipe machine is corded, or cordless. The latter can be easily hijacked. And, chip and pin has been beaten by keylogging routines - they feed the vital info to the cloner. Job done. Spyware freely available apparently.
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A reason to use a credit and not a debit card. CC has some backup for us under the current laws.
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One of the issues is whether the swipe machine is corded or cordless.
>>
The suspect filling station was not one of the very biggest brands.
A fixed (corded) machine was in use and I was the only handler and it was PIN transaction.
>>BBD
>>I had a problem a few months ago with a new credit card that had never ever left the house since it was delivered, nor used on the internet yet was cloned.
>>
A recent ( repeat) programme had an example like yours where they guy kept the card in the safe and SWMBO did not know the PIN.
Bank whould not accept it was cloned and he had to pay up for all the fauds.
My CC was a company initiated replacement and was only a few days old. I had to phone to activate it and then I trashed the old one.
(I do have a very well know CC that because I have three cards on the account cannot be Chip n Pin so it requires a signature which surprises a few outlets.)
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The "well-known chain" is an example of a franchised operation - not centrally managed except for the branding. Open to all and sundry to exploit the tills esp. funding for certain insurrections in the Far East. Cash only in unfamiliar filling stations I suggest.
I know exactly what you are trying to say nortones, I had arrived at the same conclusions myself ages ago, a pity though, that we probably can't expand further about this on here, but it pays to be streetwise does'nt it?
It's sad that totally innocent people will get tarred with the same brush though.
I have to be very careful about who I take CC/DD payment for cars from, and because of this I don't advertise the fact that I take card payments.
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ZM - am totally in agreement with you and Nortones, know exactly where you are coming from, and yes it is a shame that we cannot expand further, but thats good old Britatin for you.
CBG
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... it is a shame that we cannot expand further, but thats good old Britatin for you.
I don't understand where all this is coming from. The previous threads on this matter named the Oil Company whose franchises apparently are mainly affected by the scam, and the ethnicity and the funding of the "independence war" of the people involved was also discussed without any intervention from the mods.
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i.e. they didn't work out who'd done it despite narrowing my transaction down and looking at it on camera... or maybe they did and just got rid of the staff member.
>>
Or maybe they did know who did it and they were all in it together.
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"The "well-known chain" is an example of a franchised operation - not centrally managed except for the branding. "
Same as Holiday Inn being a franchise. When I once complained (won't go into details) it went nowhere. And it was potentially very serious.
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Same as Holiday Inn being a franchise. When I once complained (won't go into details) it went nowhere. And it was potentially very serious.
>>
A few years ago I too experienced a poor response.
I booked a Holiday Inn for the family in Florida by CC to guarantee my reservation.
I arrived late evening to find the reservation had been cancelled and no rooms vacant.
My booking had been cancelled that afternoon when I was at 35,000 feet mid Atlantic.
" In effect - tough! go somewhere else!).
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Happened to me a few years ago, three transactions for about £750 each (but not identical amounts) for the same Californian account. I had paid for a few things in California with the card about a year previously. Californian friend got the Better Bureau Business on the case - no such company registered. My card issuer told me to report the fraud to my local police station, where staff told me that, as crime abroad, nothing to do with them. However, they knew about the outfit and gave me a reference number. The card compay coughed up but - an interesting aspect - declined to tell me exactly what had happened. I think they did not want to admit their system was penetrateable.
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Some personal experience:
1. Brother who lives south of San Fransisco, we were shopping for wedding stuff. Shopping patterns a little odd.... one shop have to call to check identity of card owner. No problem but the systems for the credit card had flagged lots of smallish purchases in one area. This was 1999.
2. I got a call from O2 to query an online payment to top up our sons PAYG SIM. It looked dubious hence the call.
3. Back many years ago (1997?) a company charge card went missing. I told them it had not turned up and they said to said a week. It didn't appear so I got one to another address. In the meantime it was used.... as a charge card there is no real limit. Somehow they'd only managed less than £200 :-)
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I had a problem a few months ago with a new credit card that had never ever left the house since it was delivered, nor used on the internet yet was cloned and used to buy and LCD tv and a load of medicines from a chemist. I can only guess it was someone at the bank, the police suspected me at first.
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i got caught recently too...i suspect a e**o station id used several weeks before
the bank told me its rife in filling stations and to use cash for fuel if possible , and that supermarket stations are more likely to be safer if you must use a card
Edited by steveo3002 on 03/06/2008 at 10:43
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I'm in the process of having (hopefully) £3500.00 repaid to my account. This was debited from my account in one amount by an online spread betting company!
Although the bank have/are agreed/agreeing to repay this amount, what worried me is that despite this being a one-off large payment to a company I have never previously used for a service which there was no history, which also placed the account in question into unauthorised overdraft, no effort was made to check with me.
It's all very well that I seem to be covered from a financial point of view but what all the other emotional and inconvenience issues. I wouldn't have liked to see what my blood pressure was that day.
It seems to be that it is an accepted/acceptable situation that a certain amount of fraud takes place.
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It seems to be that it is an accepted/acceptable situation that a certain amount of fraud takes place.
Fact of life and reflection on moral values of society. It is seen as an acceptable cost of doing business in that sector [just as shoplifting in self-service shops, software theft in IT, illegal music & video downloads, counterfeit goods, etc. etc. .... all the way to motoring crimes including law breakers who think it is OK for them to break speed limits, drive while drunk, etc. etc. ]
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I think some banks are better at dealing with it than others. My wife banks with the same outfit as me (First Direct), she got a phone call to say her part of the credit card (same a/c different cards and different numbers) had a 'strange' transaction and could she confirm it was her...£0.99p at 0200 hours in a downloading music transaction for an Ipod
Bank noticed she'd never used the card for that before and had never used the card at night. They stated it was often done for such a small amount to see if it could be used later for more. New card turned up 3 days later.
I have a theory the petrol station problems come from the traders copy of the credit card slip, because it has most of your details on it. They don't get the PIN or your security code number...but amazingly many companies will do transactions on the net without much security. They must lose thousands, because the banks can easily claim the money back if they've not initiated security checks.
Some garages are worse than others. Try to avoid those with a high concentration of staff originating from an island with a long terrorist/independence problem (depending on your viewpoint) as i understand that statistically that can be a problem. Of course not all people from that area are crooks.
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Nicely put WP, i wonder if cash is making a comeback for this very reason.
I think i've only been caught without cash at a fuel station once in the last in the last 5 or so years, won't let it happen again either.
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HJ used to be a bit doubtful about supermarket fuel in comparison with brands, but the supermarket garage is the only place I'll use a card these days. Otherwise it's cash especially if the garage may seem to be linked as Westpig suggests above.
I had a card cloned last year. Last places I'd used it were the National Trust and an ethnic restaurant.
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Last places I'd used it were the National Trust and an ethnic restaurant.
>>
The National Trust really ought to sort its act out shouldn't it....:-)
In all seriousness though, I don't want my comments above to start an ethnic element to this thread. One thing i've learnt living in london for over 25 years is that ALL communities have their problems, some with concentrated pockets of various crimes. Generally the vast majority of human beings are thoroughly decent and it's the small percentage of 'lowlife' that cause the problems for the rest of us. Genuine statement, not a politically correct get out clause.
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Fair point. I didn't want to start an ethnic slant either.
But there's nothing wrong with a bit of honesty and that's the only time I've had a card problem.
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what sums it up for me was the fantastic time Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman had during the Long Way Round, in places that most of us would be quite worried about. In reality they were looked after and treated like family in some most inhospitable places. Really re-instilled my faith in human nature.
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Really re-instilled my faith in human nature.
You have sussed the whole point in proper travel Westpig. In difference, touching familiarity. Really makes a mark on the traveller.
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Of course not all people from that area are crooks.
Indeed. Searching the subject on the internet will provide the official Police statements which suggest that quite often the employees in these establishments are at the mercy of their "masters" who exercise control over these employees using blackmail tactics - via threats to their family or via control over that person's "legal immigration status". The "masters" are not connected to the business except perhaps extracting "donations" or "protection money" in the way that the Mafia did in New York.
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Just checked. It is all there on all mainstream news sites. Nothing "politically correct" about it.
Just try your favourite search engine for the words : UK tamil tigers petrol station credit card scam
First hit on my search news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6578595.stm
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I previously posted a thread on here which was linked to a newspaper article. In that case ot was Shell stations in Edinburgh and the con worked by bribing members of staff seriously large amounts of money to allow "alterations" to be made to the chip and pin reader.
I use Shell's own Citi card for all fuel transactions so if anything other than fuel appears on it, I will hopefully notice straight away.
What concerns me is the amount of call centres where you will need to give them all your info. I mean if I have to give them the card number, my address and the 3 digit security number then, hello, its not very secure anymore is it?
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It seems to be that it is an accepted/acceptable situation that a certain amount of fraud takes place.
Being provocative
It is just like speeding isn't it, and lots of people on here think that is OK.
Just shows how we want the freedom to choose which rules we follow but don't want to give others that same freedom.
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ijws,
You're not by any chance a high ranking police officer in the northern part of lovely Wales are you?
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My card was cloned a few years back and there was no doubt in my mind where it happened , it was a petrol station near Gatwick which I used regularly and the majority of the fraudulent transactions of around £ 4 K were made in Heathrow and Colombo Sri Lanka.
I was quite impressed with the CC company in the way they picked up the fraud quite quickly and apart from a bit of embarrassment top SWMBO when her card ( we have a joint account) was queried at the hairdressers , all was well and the money credited without question. Never heard any more and a new card arrived within three days.
I do now always accompany my card when paying for any transactions which has resulted in me following waiters into restaurant kitchens and behind the bar at a pub if to keep an eye on the card. If they don't like it I explain the reason and usually its OK.
Chip and Pin has improved matters but I am always extremely wary with my PIN number and sheild the keypad with my other hand when punching in the details.
I always check my CC statement for any 'unusual ' transactions and all my CC slips or any financial papers no longer required are shredded or pulped after checking.
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It is just like speeding isn't it and lots of people on here think that is OK.Just shows how we want the freedom to choose which rules we follow but don't want to give others that same freedom.
there's a difference between some laws that are well overdue a review and are brought into disrepute when set poorly (whoever sets some local limits).. and laws that are glaringly obviously put there for a reason
i.e. it will always be an offence to commit theft/fraud and rightly so. Some speed limits (arguably) have fallen into disrepute because they're set artificially low and are a most blunt instrument ...e.g. 20mph limit for schools, when the schools are well and truly closed.
Please tell me you can see the diffeence and are just stirring up a debate?
Edited by Webmaster on 03/06/2008 at 17:54
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I have just had a 'phone call from Saga asking if I had made a transaction with Carphone Warehouse. I hadn't of course, and I'm grateful that they were so quick to spot it.
What puzzles me is that I only use this card when I'm abroad, when I use it heavily, and recently for my ferry booking with LD LInes. The last time used it in France was to pay for diesel at Le Havre, in September, when I was on my way home.
Edited by Robbie on 03/06/2008 at 17:51
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I would put it slightly differently Westpig. Offences involving dishonesty or deliberate injury to the person indicate moral turpitude or a dangerous lack of self-control. Speeding and parking offences don't. So there is, to a normally constituted person of more or less average intelligence, a radical difference between them which has nothing to do with that well-known ass, the law.
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.. that well-known ass, the law
which good citizens like to respect and obey and hold in high regard [as is proven by the Police stats showing a reduction in crime ].
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Speeding has gradations, as everything does! Some speeding indicates that testosterone is more in control than the cortex. Hopefully the fixed penalties (for minor beaches) and court process (for more significant breaches) help take the context into account.
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I did add the comment - being provocative.
But . . .
Having also looked at the post on red lights, and seen how many of the smashed cars on wrecked exotics are speed related (i.e. going faster than the driver can cope) then what is the difference.
BTW if speed limits are reviewed then they will FALL, not rise! Think about it.
Both can lead to financial loss, one can lead to loss of life - doesn't that make speeding MORE serious than fraud where the only ones to suffer most times are the credit card companies and, after all, who really cares about them!
At the end of the day we cannot decide which laws we will obey and which we can ignore.
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Locally, you can't use a CC for fuel.
I have a seperate petrocard, linked to the Visa card, which i can use for petrol, oil, servicing only.
The card can only be swiped once in an hour, to prevent dodginess, though it still goes on.
The one advantage is that I use only Caltex petrol stations - the Astra likes their fuel additives better, it seems - and get a record of transactions, all saing CALTEX WETLAND or CALTEX CITY 4 etc.
This helped a LOT a while back after filling up with Caltex's delightful petroleum/H20 combination one day...
"I have been using Caltex exclusively for over 4 years and can prove it..."
Car was fixed at their expense - none spared - and a very grovelly apology was forthcoming.
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Mine was done in John Lewis, Kingston recently - a [formerly now!] inside job.
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Had a fraud on my VISA debit card yesterday. Got up early to see the detail of the transaction. Card used with firm in Bolton that deals on internet and delivers via courier. Rang Greater Manchester Police. Spoke to civilian. Asked if they had a fraud section. Civilian seemed uncertain so asked to speak to policeman or woman.
Spoke to sergeant and suggested that if they moved swiftly they could get delivery address from firm and arrest someone. He was more interested in getting me to follow "protocol" and speak to his civilian colleague until he recalled that I didn't live in his area at which point he told me to contact my local police. Happy to give me name and badge number.
Contacted local police. Told what sergeant had said wasn't true. Details taken. Crime number given. Suggested if someone moved today copper could turn up instead of courier with goods.
Got nowhere. Told bank has to investigate fraud before police. Probably so. Would pass details on to fraud "specialist".
Blood pressure currently 256 over 255. This country is absolutely done for.
Edited by Optimist on 06/06/2008 at 11:52
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Told bank has to investigate fraud before police. Probably so.
Makes sense. The fraud is committed against the party that pays. If the Bank does not pay the firm in Bolton, then that firm is the victim. "Your" debit card is simply the conduit [ I said "your" because I would not be surprised if the terms & conditions probably say somewhere that it the Bank's property and not "yours" ].
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Money went from my account. The firm already has the money. At the moment the fraud is against me. I'm the victim. Unless the firm's been negligent they will keep the money, the fraudster will keep the goods (because I can't get the coppers to get off their backsides) and the bank will re-imburse me.
And that costs all of us in bank charges etc.
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Optimist,
All over the country detectives have a stack of crimes allocated to them that are too numerous for them to deal with properly, so they prioritise as best they can.
All over the country, police control rooms have important 'Immediate' calls stacked up with not enough officers to respond, let alone the 'Soon' ones. It's not uncommon to have page after page after page of 'S' calls, which is why some take many days to get to.
Ultimately your crime will be one with a bank or company as a fraud victim. Nowadays that is not a police priority.
I'd agree that's not right in the big scheme of things, but that's how it is, there's no point moaning at those who are desperately trying to make the system work. Aim it at those that can change it... i.e. politicians.
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Westpig
I am going to moan to politicians. I'll let you know how I get on.
This morning might have given someone an easy arrest. Heigh-ho. I imagine there were some anti-diversity "crimes" to deal with.
My wife is looking over my shoulder saying she thought this was about cars. She's right. That's the end of this topic for me.
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If "your" card is used fraudulently for fuel or car related purchases [or for that matter, any other purchases], the following points are worth noting:
1. The Bank will have a clause such as this in its T&C: "If someone carries out a fraudulent transaction using your card details on the internet or by telephone or mail order you will not be liable for the fraudulent transaction." This right is enshrined in English Law [maybe in other UK jurisdictions too] and spelt out in the Banking Code.
2. If you think it is "your" card, remember the Bank will have a clause such as this in tits T&C : "We own the card and if we ask, you must return it to us immediately (cut in half through the signature box and magnetic strip, and if you have a chip card ensure the chip is cut in half). We, or anyone acting for us, may keep the card at any time. For example, we may withdraw a card and instruct any third party to keep hold of it if you try to use it."
3. If the local Police are not interested in following up the fraud, who should you contact: As this report today says, your best hope is that when it happens to you, you can take part in the trial being conducted by City of London Police, see
www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/06/national_fraud_pr.../
4. If you think that the Police are not taking these crimes seriously, they think otherwise: "It is widely accepted that fraud causes significant harm to the UK, indeed the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) recognises this as a priority area"
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/Fraud%20in%20...f
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Bringing this to the top of the pile again.
When I spoke to my local police call centre today, the bloke told me the 2006 Fraud Act says the bank investigates card fraud before the police do. Sounded odd and I asked him to confirm, which he did.
I've looked at the Act tonight and can't see that.
Westpig? Midlifecrisis? Any thoughts?
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Seems likely that the bank can point plod electronically in the right direction fairly promptly.
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the 2006 Fraud Act says the bank investigates card fraud before the police do. Sounded odd and I asked him to confirm, which he did.
Many stories of this abound. Easiest to link to are:
www.computeractive.co.uk/computeractive/news/21831...s
www.computeractive.co.uk/computeractive/news/21882...e
www.thisismoney.co.uk/credit-and-loans/idfraud/art...9
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For what it's worth I think it IS something police should be dealing with....however..
the reality is there is little leeway to do it.... and like everything, if you have to prioritise, something will drop off the bottom
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I just spoke to my local police again about this having got some further info from the retailer.
It's not a cloned card. It's identity fraud. I thought the police would want to know this but they weren't interested and told me that the reference I'd been given yesterday wasn't a crime reference. It was just to record the conversation.
They didn't record incidents like this as crime. No wonder crime is falling when it's not recorded.
So ok gentlemen of the police service. Justify that.
Edited by Optimist on 07/06/2008 at 12:26
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So ok gentlemen of the police service. Justify that.
I can't justify much of it, not at all. All i can do though is tell you of the realities, which is not laziness, incompetence etc....but, such severe workloads for those left dealing with things like this, that some stuff has got to be dropped. Simple as that.
It's a matter of priorities set by politicians in conjunction with very senior police managers. In reality the police, as a service, try to do too much and end up scratching the surface on things and therefore not providing much quality.
If you take Safer Neighbourhoods as an example. It is staff intensive and those police officers had to come from somewhere, so they are now no longer available to be used as response police officers. They are 'ring fenced' and have to be left alone. Then there's the PCSOs that earn not far off the starting salary of a new police officer. They deal with low level issues such as anti-social behaviour, graffiti etc. It has been a success, the public like it....BUT... it has created a void. Low level issues are dealt with by the SNTs, really serious crime is still dealt with by detectives etc..but...the stuff in the middle, forget it. Who is their to deal? No one. Response team officers are running around like blue fluffy dice flies dealing with 999 calls and similar.
There are numerous other examples e.g. Community Safety Units (deal exclusively with homophobic, racial, domestic violence matters). Not saying their work isn't important, but again creates a void.
There are many many other examples.
Edited by Webmaster on 08/06/2008 at 01:13
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I can see all about workloads and that you have to use your resources as directed.
But surely you have to record record crime when a member of the public reports it whether or not you have the time to do anything about it?
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Optimist,
Fair point. Not my area of expertise, but suggest it's on the 'too difficult pile' because where was the cloning offence committed? Who takes responsibilty to investigate it? If the 'cloner' commits offences all over the shop, would each individual 'fraud' be investigated by each individual police area?
Probably not the answer you're looking for, probably unprofessional, but if in the big scheme of things lower level fraud is being quietly dropped investigations wise and indeed the govt have even legislated to put the emphasise back on the financial institutions, then presumably that'll be why.
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Thanks for the eminently sane response.
My local police call centre (I can't believe I've just typed that) directed me to the identity-theft website.
There's nothing in the Fraud Act 2006. What it seems to come down to is that ACPO and the banking industry have agreed that fraud and identity theft are only recorded as crime when reported by the banks.
Now I'm a cycnic, but it's not in the interest of the banking industry to let on that it can't counteract card fraud, is it? So they probably report only in mega cases and write the rest off, crediting the punter's account. And the Police Service can tell us that recorded crime has gone down. Which it will do if you don't record it. So it's a bit you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
The identity theft site estimates the cost of such fraud at £1.3bn per year. Don't know when that figure was recorded. But it must represent an awful lot of individual crimes so you can see why the Home Office would rather pretend the problem didn't exist.
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