A while ago, I asked BR'ers their thoughts on the problem of the M'way fast lane being congested, whilst the slow lane was clear, or the irritating person in the middle lane doing 60.
The consensus was that 'undertaking' was a bad thing, and people should use the M'way properly.
Being a naive chap, with too much money to waste on second class stamps, I wrote to the DoT and suggested to them that a little reminder sign on the sign 'M6' or whatever as you join the M'way on the slip road, to the effect of 'keep to the left unless overtaking'. Just to put the thought in people's noggins. And at minimal outlay.
I've long believed that those who govern us are in a different reality from those who are governed, one where common sense is ruthlessly hunted out and purged.
Anyway, highlights from the reply:
1. Keeping to the left is in the Highway Code, so people should know it and follow it anyway.
2. It would be unwise to have such a sign, as it would lead to 'driver information overload'.
3. Such signs could be dangerous, as they might distract drivers from more important and safety critical signs.
4. They do sometimes use VMS signs (are those those texty gantry things?), but don't like to bang on too much as people stop reading them.
5. They have produced a DVD, which can be found at such and such address, which the AA and RAC thought was rather good.
6. Their TV and media campaigns are targeted on potentially fatal practices, which this ain't.
I'm lost for words, really. i don't understand a reality - even in a world where education has to be in 3 minute chunks with music and flashing lights to keep the attentions span above that of a goldfish - where a sign saying 'M6' and also 'keep left' will cause people's brains to overload. Time to rip out those signs on the escalators on the tube saying 'stand on the right'. I'd love to see the stats of how much the DVD cost to make and how many people actually saw it - other than those who know its contents already.
Peanut
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I wonder how much congestion is caused by motorists thinking in terms of 'slow lane' and 'fast lane'.
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Seem like fairly sensible answers from DoT to me. Too many signs already.
I do drive on the left but it's deuced hard work if you want to maintain 60-65mph, as I did yesterday in poor conditions on the M1, with constant need to overtake LGVs doing 56 - few drivers will spot you catching slower traffic, and if they do they often accelerate to shut you in before you pull out, so it becomes necessary to pull out in good time. And if there's another LGV 1/4 mile ahead of the first one, stay in lane 2 or you'll need to drop to 56 yourself because Dopey will be alongside when you get there (and 3 WVMs will be tailgating him and each other to make sure you can't pull out when Dopey's gone past).
Most of the drivers who get aerated about the MLOC are speeding anyway - if they want to drive at 90 then on their own heads be it, but they shouldn't expect everyone else to get obediently out of the way.
I've also noticed that the pushy ones rarely use lane 1 themselves either, even when it's clear. Part of the slow lane/fast lane mentality themselves?
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"distract drivers from more important and safety critical signs"
....usually of the digit variety displayed by driver's in grey BMW 535ds and more latterly in Roomsters when he gets hogged (this is a "joke" see OED for further details !)
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Keeping to the left is in the Highway Code, so people should know it and follow it anyway.
Yeah, yeah. Lots of things are in the Highway Code which drivers have either forgotten or chosen to ignore.
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Thing is, they use the signs already for general advice like
Don't drink and drive
Take a break
etc.
So why not do this- indeed I've got a feeling I have seen this done.
The one sign I really wish they would display is in spray and twilight conditions, to tell people to use headlights ( as in NOT parking lights, NOT foglights, unless excessive visibility problems). That's also in the Highway Code but ignored by hundreds of thousands of drivers every day!
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Motorways are clogged to some extent by commercial vehicles governed to 56mph, and made far worse by car drivers who want to maintain a steady 60 or whatever.
The idea that motorways are places where you can choose your speed and drive along at it without being held up or holding anyone up is ridiculous. So is the idea that it is good driving to overtake a line of lorries doing 56 at a speedometer 60 in the middle lane. The correct thing to do is lose a couple of mph and join the HGVs, or speed up a bit to avoid making a silly blockage in the middle lane. There is nothing sacred about your fuel consumption target or your feeling that 60mph is a nice comfortable speed. You are supposed to fit in with everyone else using what HJ calls 'commonsense and observation'. And quite honestly if you don't feel comfortable above 60mph, the motorway is no place for you. It is for people who know how to drive motor vehicles.
Indeed the first two items in his column today are answers to two people who seem to think there are hard-and-fast rules for joining motorways from slip roads, and that the drivers concerned merely have to know and observe these rules. HJ quite rightly gives them short shrift, although politely.
Edited by Lud on 17/05/2008 at 16:10
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Make poor lane discipline an endorseable offence. Problem solved.
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It would be much safer if everyone was allowed and expected to reach a 70mph cruising speed. The road should govern the limit, not an algorithm based on the class of vehicle and the class of the road.
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Can't agree with you Lud, 70 mph and above is not a target speed for motorway travel, and a driver is entitled to cruise down the motorway all day at 60 mph if they so desire...provided that they move to the nearside lane where reasonable to allow faster moving traffic to proceed.
It takes a brave or stubborn person to battle it out with the trucks at 54mph in the nearside lane, as many at the helm of a truck will ride as close as possible to a small vehicle in the nearside lanes. I don't do this i assure but a large percentage do.
Having said that most cars showing 60 mph will infact only be doing a true 56 anyway, so a 2 mph passing can cause a bit of a problem, and truck drivers are regularly chastised for doing so. Also, its not a great idea to be beside a left hooker unaware and seemingly uncaring that there may be a car beside his offside front wheels, seen the results hundreds nay countless times, not defending in any way the truck drivers that are incompetent, its inexcusable, but a fact of life.
A lot of the increased middle lane problems have been caused by the wonderful idea of limiting large vans and small lorries to the same governed speed as the big trucks, thats resulted in a large increase of bunching, by a whole new division of semi skilled and unaware drivers that haven't previously had to cope with the limiter effect, which requires patience and planning.
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Well said, I totally agree!
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Defacto Motorway rule:
Lane 1: for HGV
Lane 2: for cars
Lane 3: for overtaking, BMW, Porsche, white vans etc.
Driving on HGV lane is utterly frustrating.
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I agree too gb, everything you say is sensible and indeed agrees with some of what I was saying.
Perhaps I expressed myself badly. I didn't mean to imply that people should aim to drive at 70 or more on the motorway (although I much prefer it when they do), just that they might sometimes need to go a bit faster than their ideal cruise to avoid causing a silly bottleneck while overtaking. This largely agrees with what you say.
A measure of flexibility and all-round vision are what you need on the motorway, not resentment, rigidity and tunnel vision. What HJ calls 'commonsense and observation'.
I insist though that if the NSL feels frighteningly fast, you shouldn't try to drive on the motorway at all, and you are quite likely to be a mobile chicane and PITA on the road wherever you are. That doesn't mean you have to drive at the NSL, but you should certainly stay out of the way of those who do. Seems to me that about a quarter of motorway drivers are in a state of permanent, ill-suppressed terror. They would be much happier in a bus or on ordinary A-roads, preferably so congested that enforced mimsing is general. Damn depressing really.
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Lud
I agree your comments, except the day i do or say anything sensible is along way off.
Some drivers seem totally unaware of others around them regardless of speed, especially behind the field of vision, its as if anything behind the head does not exist (that sounds odd but i'm sure you get my drift)
Maybe a new thread is called for as to why some people are so wary of motorway travel. I wonder for example how many drivers take extra precautions whenever they are overtaking a foreign truck, i've noticed many seemingly experienced drivers (not the mimsers you refer too, they wouldn't notice) slow a little before commiting the overtake of said vehicle and when their exit is clear, they sort of leap frog and then resume normal progress. This is not an illusion i really do see it regularly. Not a rant at the foreign truck drivers, many of our own are just as bad, openly using the vehicle as a weapon. And don't get me started on white van man...
Talking of alternative methods of travel, if i could afford it, i'd go everywhere by train.
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Manatee has it in a nutshell, you keep left whenever possible and you are then trapped by middle lane drivers who box you in. I can't see any way to resolve this problem, you are reliant on the goodwill of others.
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"'keep to the left unless overtaking'"
I've seen gantry signs saying this during this week - I can't remember whether it was the M3, M4 or M40.
Edited by Avant on 17/05/2008 at 19:32
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"Don't hog the middle lane" on both the M42 and M6 yesterday.
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Well I do wish someone would do something about middle lane hogs.
I tend to undertake them, though I know that I risk prosecution for doing so. But if the choice is between tailing a slow lane two hog, undertaking, or pushing into fast nose to tail lane 3 traffic, undertaking seems the safer option, though you have to check for an empty hard shoulder to be extra-safe.
I under took one at the weekend. Lane 1 was empty. He flashed me after I undertook. But he did not move left. Odd really.
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Hope you sounded your horn as you did it to let him know you were there!
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most annoying habit when 3 lanes go down to 2 and the middle lane hog stays in lane 2 (or the now outside lane) with no regard for who is in the disappearing lane 3. Always happens to me on the M3 (north just after Winchester) where invariably the middle lane hog is doing c. 60mph with nothing at all in lane 1.
The one thing I will say about lane 1 is that very often they are badly surfaced by constant HGV use and it can be quite easy to tramline,
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Leif I do exactly the same thing.
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I'm not admitting anything.
You may think what you like, I couldn't possibly comment.
Leif and mss1tw ;>)
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R-T, are they really doing 60?? Most of the hoggers I come across are doing around 70 - the "I'm doing the speed limit so I can drive where I want" syndrome....
Edited by b308 on 19/05/2008 at 19:01
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you'd think that being undertaken they'd be a bit embarrassed and move left.. but they never do...i'd love to know the thinking
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you'd think that being undertaken they'd be a bit embarrassed and move left.. but they never do...i'd love to know the thinking
I think your post contains an underlying assumption which might be incorrect ... :)
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The RAC once labelled them CLODS (Centre Lane Owner Drivers' Society).
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CLODS (Centre Lane Owner Drivers' Society).
>
That D should be a T! I can't think of what it could stand for, but I'm sure someone could find something suitable!
Edited by b308 on 20/05/2008 at 07:04
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The RAC once labelled them CLODS (Centre Lane Owner Drivers' Society).
How about CLOOLESS (Centre Lane Owner Occupiers who Lead to Extra Stressful Situations) or BOLOC (British Off-Side Lane Owners Club)
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I tend to undertake them, though I know that I risk prosecution for doing so. But if the choice is between tailing a slow lane two hog, undertaking, or pushing into fast nose to tail lane 3 traffic, undertaking seems the safer option..
Really? So, you're already behind a driver who has demonstrated little awareness of, or consideration for, other drivers. Is is safer (since you mention this as something you take into account..) then, to do the unexpected , rather than indicate & edge into lane-3 - where one might assume that they're a little more 'on the ball' & engaged?
Might there not be the teensiest bit of 'I'll show ya..!' type bravado involved here, & not only the desire to make progress? Maybe not, I can't judge of course, but I have seen several near-collision incidents (or probable mutiple pile-ups, in extremis) when this manoeuvre has been done.
Not being condemnatory here, but I do a different cost-benefit analysis in these situations - seconds or minutes gained will never balance my life risked (or lost!).
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Really? So you're already behind a driver who has demonstrated little awareness of or consideration for other drivers. Is is safer (since you mention this as something you take into account..) then to do the unexpected rather than indicate & edge into lane-3 - where one might assume that they're a little more 'on the ball' & engaged?
If there is a large speed differential between lane 2 and lane 3, then it might not be safe to get in to lane 3. And lane 3 drivers are often aggressive and confrontational if someone tries to beat them in the race to the finish. PLus they often drive nose to tail making it unsafe to 'nudge in'.
Undertaking is safe if done with care, which means having an escape route, and being alert. Lane 2 hogs are often not unobservant, but know full well that lane 1 is empty. Quite why they hog lane 2 is beyond me.
Might there not be the teensiest bit of 'I'll show ya..!' type bravado involved here & not only the desire to make progress?
Sorry to disappoint, but nope!
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I quite agree with your sentiments & technique Leif. When motorcycling (courier) I habitually did this without a thought, then latterly in cars too. It's just that (esp. with lower powered & less manoeuvreable cars vs. bikes..) I found the benefits of undertaking outweighed by the risk that the numpty in lane-2 would do something deliberately stupid or move left in concert without observing me. Maybe it's because I'm older & less determined to enforce my schedule (whether real or notional) on external events or obstructive CLODs.
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I quite agree with your sentiments & technique Leif. When motorcycling (courier) I habitually did this without a thought then latterly in cars too. It's just that (esp. with lower powered & less manoeuvreable cars vs. bikes..) I found the benefits of undertaking outweighed by the risk that the numpty in lane-2 would do something deliberately stupid or move left in concert without observing me. Maybe it's because I'm older & less determined to enforce my schedule (whether real or notional) on external events or obstructive CLODs.
As I said, I only undertake if there is an escape route. And I do not undertake if I can readily overtake. It is a balance of risk.
In fact, one of the most irritating types is the right lane hog on a curved slip road. They insist in occupying the right hand lane in a 2 lane slip road, so you either follow them at a slow speed for a mile or two, or you undertake. Waiting then flashing head lights rarely works.
I think lane hoggers should be given 3 points. After all, if you can be given 3 points for parking near a pedestrian crossing (rightly so), why not for lane hogging. But then again, this assumes enough porta-plods, and that they are not burdened by large amounts of paperwork.
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There is no such thing as a fast lane on the motorway
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Woodbines, I agree with what you have said, but if one has tried the "flashing lights" and "horn" and still no movement towards the inside lane?.....
I know its still wrong, but.....
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I just overtake them and then (if possible) immediately cross into the left-hand lane in one manoeuvre. I don't see middle lane hogs as being any big deal.
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L'escargot, 'fraid I have to differ with you. On the occasions when I have to get somewhere quickly, and so am using the right hand lane quite a bit, it is not uncommon to run into a 'plug' of traffic, caused by a MLOG devotee up ahead, and so lanes 2 and 3 having to get by him/her, causing a bit of a mobile bottleneck.
It seems to me that some drivers will insist on using lane 2 (or even lane 3 on the 4 lane M25 ) when the inside lanes are clear. Having said that, I do most of my motorway miles at weekends, when the traffic is different in terms of HGV's.
I think this is a bigger issue than the Highways Agency seem to think, interms of traffic flow and congestion.
Peanut.
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Absolutely Peanut but I suspect it doesn't even register a the Dft as a cause of congestion.
The comment above about how can we regulate people to operate goodwill is easily answered - if they won't do it voluntarily, make them do it on pain of a fine or points. The word would get round PDQ.
It would be nice to think that someone would do the sums on how much it would cost to put an extra patrol car on the M-way versus the savings achieved by fewer accidents caused by bunching.
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The comment above about how can we regulate people to operate goodwill is easily >> answered - if they won't do it voluntarily make them do it on pain of a fine or points. The word would get round PDQ.
You think? See mobile phone laws for evidence that it makes hardly any difference at all.
If it were snipers posted on every motorway bridge however....
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I just overtake them and then (if possible) immediately cross into the left-hand lane in one manoeuvre. I don't see middle lane hogs as being any big deal.
Occasionally, just very occasionally, this actually makes people realise what they're doing, signal, and move over. About one time in twenty or so, in my experience.
Cheers
DP
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I do the same and, as I'm moving back to the inside lane, indicate to the middle lane driver that that is also the lane he/she should be occupying...:-)
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a. Isn't it an offence in France - hence very little hogging even on two lane motorways.
2. In the old days a flash from the car behind was enough to wake up the hog - these days you may end up as a victim of road rage.
c. Would restricting limited vehicles to the inside lane during commuting hours put an end to "elephant racing".
IV. "You are all idiots and you are all out to kill me" - make this your mantra and you will get home in one piece (mainly because it's true).
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