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I'm happy with weight in kilos and length in meters, but liquids have to be imperial and road distances in miles ....
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length in meters
Odometers? Gas meters?
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There's no reason why we in Britain should totally kowtow to continental Europe's obsession with metric units.
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Agreed, but we are half imperial half metric!
We use kg yet use mile, buy in litre but measure in MPG :)
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We ......... buy in litre ...........
Because the government say we have to.
>> .......... but measure in MPG.
Because we, the public, have the right to do so.
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What do they teach kids in school these days. Metric? Imperial? Both? A combination?
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Er, I don't think they've taught imperial measures at all in schools since the eighties! Certainly never taught me any.
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........ I don't think they've taught imperial measures at all in schools since the eighties! Certainly never taught me any.
Then your life is much less richer than it could have been.
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Ah yes, those golden days, L'escargot.
Who can forget those red exercise books with rods, poles and perches usefully set out on the back cover?
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They only taught metric when I was at school, and I left in 1992.
I prefer metric for scientific for mathematical formulae, as it seems far simpler, I also prefer metric spanners, feeler guages and threads etc....
Socially, I prefer imperial as the words such as "two or three feet" sound nicer, I do some of my work in FE and HE education, and even today's students seem to prefer imperial for describing distance or the size of paper, but they don't like it at all for weight and neither do I.
Edited by Hamsafar on 01/05/2008 at 11:54
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I can think in either Imperial units or metric units so it doesn't bother me one iota which anyone else uses. However, in this day and age of electronic digital display pumps I see no reason why they can't incorporate the means of displaying the quantity both in litres and in gallons and the unit price in both pence/litre and £/gallon ~ either permanently or transiently at the whim of the customer.
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When I left school in 1968 everything at school was imperial only, then I went to college and everything was metric, talk about fish out of water initially :0(
Then in the 80s I started looking into computer programming and things went binary and hexadecimal !
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Then in the 80s I started looking into computer programming and things went binary >> and hexadecimal !
You missed out octal ?
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Give me metric any day - particularly when going from physics into aviation. I cringe every time I hear a unit like "kg per square foot".
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Give me metric any day - particularly when going from physics into aviation. I cringe every time I hear a unit like "kg per square foot".
Expand your horizons. Learning shouldn't stop the day you leave school. I was only taught Imperial units at school but as soon as I started work I realised that I would have to become equally conversant and comfortable with metric units and a combination of both. For every day purposes a lot of conversions can be done by mental arithmetic but I don't suppose they teach that in schools now either.
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I only learned metric at school (left in '93) but have picked up some imperial in the real world.
In practise, I am happy with either, but find metric far more logical and consistent. If you were trying to explain the two systems to an alien with no former knowledge of Earth, which would appear more logical:
10 millimetres to a centimetre, 100 centimetres to a metre, 1000 metres to a kilometre.
10 millilitres to a centilitre, 100 centilitres to a litre (or in the real world, skip centilitres and say 1000ml to a litre)
or
12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 220 yards to a furlong, 8 furlongs to a mile.
20 fl oz to a pint, 8 pints to a gallon. But that depends on the combination of UK and US gallons and UK and US pints.
When working on the car, I can look at a nut and say "that's 13mm". I could not (without Google) look at one and say "that's a half inch"
That said, this fence sitting half and half system that we muddle on with seems to work, and I don't believe in forcing anything on anyone.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 01/05/2008 at 15:16
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i left junior school in 1971 so i was pretty hot with the imperial stuff, then it all went metric so i had the best of both worlds until clive sinclair bought out the pocket calculator then there was no stopping me, zx 80, then the zx 81 colour, bbc micro , commadore amiga, pc , etc etc.. but my typing and gramma have suffered
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I'm also a great believer in half-and-half; hence, like everyone else I readily understand it's a hot day if the temp if 85 degrees Farneheit ( schpelling ? ), or very cold if it's at minus 4 Celcius, and it'll freeze over in Haedes - at any scale you care to mention - before I abandon MPG
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The standard European measure, L/100km, means nothing to an old Britisher. Miles per gallon means something. Cars that do less than twenty in town and less than thirty on the road are heavy on juice. Cars that do better than that are more or less affordable. Cars that do much better than that are economical.
The calculation is easy. You work out miles per litre and multiply by 4.546.
Would have been a real pain before solar-powered calculators though.
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old Britisher>> Can you say that?
"Old" is obviously an implicitly offensive term. I think "elderly" or "senior" might be what you're looking for.
And I don't think "Britisher" sufficiently inclusive for everyday use. May I suggest "citizen of our multi-cultural society"?
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The calculation is easy. You work out miles per litre and multiply by 4.546.
Or divide by 0.22.
I can do that in my head and I left school 52 years ago!
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isn,t the mile a derivision of the french for "mille" or 1000 paces , and im not talking latin thus making it decimal? unlike the tradition 1760 yards ?
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Back in the old days (1620) when Edmund Gunter of U.K. made land measurements (surveying), he used a chain made up of 100 rigid links (he used chains for two reasons: a)they followed the contours of the land better, and b) they didnt stretch/shrink when they got wet) . The chain totals 66 feet, or one tenth of one furlong (220 yards). In fact, one link (of the chain) is defined as 100th of a chain, or 7.92 inches. so there are 10 chains in a Furlong, and eight furlongs in a mile.
Billy
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Using the same logic, we drink beer in pints and wine by the cl...:-)
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And recent, national, news headlines have been about petrol being £5 per gallon.
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Using the same logic we drink beer in pints and wine by the cl...:-) out of a 6 ounce glass?
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Google is your friend.
"40 miles per imperial gallon in chains per teaspoon"
40 (miles per Imperial gallon) = 4.16666667 chains per Imperial teaspoon
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What REALLY gets me is the pronunciation of kilometres as kill-OM-etres - it's a kilo of metres. I keep shouting at my satnav - kilo-metres, NOT kil-OM-etres.
Just to be awkward I am going to pronounce centimetres as cen-TIM-etres in future.
Grumpy old man? - me?
Anyway, my car is doing over 80 kilometres (not kil-OM-etres) to the gallon at the moment - sounds even better than 50mpg.
Meanwhile back to the half pint (sounds much more reasonable than hundreds of millilitres - or should that be mil-LILL-etres) of red stuff
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I simply cannot understand why every country in the world EXCEPT the USA and UK has changed over (fully) to metric measurements. The whole world is making tremendous efforts to learn OUR language yet we can't be bothered to learn THEIR measuring system.
The excuses for not "understanding" kilos, litres and metres are, simply, pathetic; almost as pathetic as the fear shown by successive governments in implementing metric properly. OK, we'll go decimal, but, erm, not metric just yet. Change to litres to bamboozle drivers about the real cost, but stay with miles. Mph for car drivers but km/h for HGVs. And the proverbial metre of 4" x 2" and so on.
Why?
Countries like Australia and South Africa managed to go metric and decimal in one fell swoop.
Here's a bag of sugar, it weighs a kilo. Pour a litre of water, it weighs the same, boils at 100 and freezes at zero: What's the problem?
As to the perennial problem of mpg or l/100 km, in this day and age a much more useful measurement would be pence per mile: if only trip computers could be programmed to show that figure!
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I simply cannot understand why every country in the world EXCEPT the USA and UK has changed over (fully) to metric measurements.
It's because USA and the UK prefer to maintain their heritage and not follow everyone else like a load of sheep. If I had my way the whole world would use Imperial units and speak English. Well, if we had lost WWII then undoubtedly we would all speak German and use metric units.
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' I simply cannot understand why every country in the world EXCEPT the USA and UK has changed over (fully) to metric measurements.'
Oh yes? Next time you are in France take a look at the tyre and wheel sizes in any motor factor. Pouces = inches, mon ami.
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"Pouces = inches"
And livres = pounds, as used in country markets. You have to admire the French for their resistance to Eurocracy which, despite our general distrust, we seem to kow-tow to so readily. Only here would someone be given a criminal record for selling pounds of bananas.
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IIRC, USA uses imperial units everywhere - they don't use Horse power yet Netwon-meter!
Here we mostly use metric nowadays (except pints etc.) and mile is the only official remaining imperial unit.
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mile is the only official remaining imperial unit.
So why are shirt collar sizes still measured in inches?
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40 (miles per Imperial gallon) = 4.16666667 chains per Imperial teaspoon
Yep, Imperial units have character .............. tinyurl.com/3tj9kw
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Don't forget the charming inconsistency of so-called imperial volume measurements, which are smaller in the US than they are here (making American cars seem even less economical).
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Don't forget the charming inconsistency of so-called imperial volume measurements
Not at all - Imperial measure is just that - should the colonies decide to shrink the Imperial gallon to th eUS gallon, then that's up to them.
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It's not very relevant, but I can remember the time when there weren't exactly 25.4 mm to 1 inch. The conversion factor was 25.39998 (approximately).
When was 1 inch standardised at 25.4 mm?
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>>When was 1 inch standardised at 25.4 mm?
When someone had the good sense to realise that for most people, and most purposes, 20 nano metres makes no difference either way, and those people who do care about the 20 nano metres probably never have cause to convert to inches anyway.
One obvious exception to the above is large civil engineering structures which might be measured in mm, but, again, if they are working throughout in mm, why convert?
Imperial is a truly awful system, and, in technical use, I can't wait to see it sink without trace.
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Imperial is a truly awful system and in technical use I can't wait to see it sink without trace.
>>
No doubt it more or less has, especially since that space debacle a few years ago. Nothing to be said for, you know, thirty-seconds of a big fat inch, when the humble ant-like millimetre is so ubiquitous and widely known. But of course spacecraft engineering and domestic plumbing and joinery are hardly in the same category.
But I will never be able to think of car economy fluently in any other units than miles per (British) imperial gallon, being what might be called an old Britisher. Force of habit.
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>>No doubt it more or less has
If only that were the case. All calcs for Boeing have to be imperial. Aerospace fasteners, even for Airbus, imperial. Awful, and nasty.
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All calcs for Boeing have to be imperial. Aerospace fasteners even for Airbus imperial. Awful and nasty.
Of course the US is frightfully traditional but I thought Yurp was progressiste... You learn something new every day. Goodness.
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Here's another one which caught me out when I ordered some standard aluminium extrusions recently; channels, angles, etc. The dimensions of the web and flanges - imperial!
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I left school (i.e. post A-levels) in 1994. There, I had been taught everything in metric. At home, I had parents who are perfectly happy with imperial measurements and indeed would (to this day) return to pre-decimal currency given half a chance.
As a result of this, and life experience in the intervening 14 years, my system of measurements is as follows:
Beer in pints
Distances in miles (although km are fine, never caused a problem abroad)
Power in BHP
Torque in lbs. ft.
Human weight in stone and lbs
Weight of anything else in g, kg & tonnes
Wine in cl
Measurements of distance (other than geographical ones) in mm, cm & m
Pressure in bar
To take an example, when doing the chain tension on the bike I adjust to 30mm play and then torque the axle nut to 75 lbs ft.
Confused? No. Off my head? Probably. Happy? Perfectly.
My only objection to metrication is the same as my objection to the euro, in that it would no doubt be used as a pretext to put up the price of everything.
For now, though, it's on my "stuff I can't get that excited about" list, although I take NC's point about 2 systems being maddening from an engineering point of view.
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To rectify my earlier rant...
In tyre sizes, engine capacities, TV screens, aviation altitude and a number of other spheres standardised imperial measurements have won the day. But in most applications, metric is the system of choice.
Likewise, countless colloquialisms based on imperial units and pre decimal money will always be with us. Amen to that.
What infuriates me is the mish mash of a "compromise" still going on and "some" people's blind insistence that imperial is "right" and metric is "wrong", and obstinately refusing to know what a kilo is. I am reminded of playground arguments which invariably ended with one child clapping hands over ears and shouting "I'm not listening!"
As I said in my previous post, if the rest of the world can easily switch into and out of our language - English is the only language ever to have had more foreign learners than native speakers and its rise is seemingly unstoppable - surely it's not too much effort for us to switch into metric?
For the record, any shopkeeper is free to set up in his shop a set of imperial scales and weigh apples and pears in pounds and ounces to his customers' delight and no one is ever going to go to prison for it. Only at the moment of pricing and paying must a standard metric weighing device be used.
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In tyre sizes engine capacities TV screens aviation altitude and a number of other spheres standardised imperial measurements have won the day.
Actually engine capacities are measured in cubic centimetres or litres (as in 2 litre Ford Focus rather than 3.51950652 pint Ford Focus?).
Aviation altitude around the world is given in meters above sea level and meters are also used universally for everything else, including visibility. Most of the readings are already metric and "europeanised" - example - pressure readings in hectopascals or millibars - metric divider of bar equal to 100 pascals).
Marine measurements are still done in knots and nautical miles (easy to calculate for everyone equivalent of 1.150779 regular imperial miles or 1.852 kilometres) , just to confuse everyone involved.
Tyre sizes are mongrel of the two systems - your typical 195/65 R15 is in fact 195 mm by 65% by 15 inches.
Edited by v0n on 03/05/2008 at 19:26
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My only objection to metrication is the same as my objection to the euro in that it would no doubt be used as a pretext to put up the price of everything.
That certainly happened when currency went metric. In a lot of shops the price of things under £1 was converted to metric by saying that 1 new penny equalled 2 old pennies instead of 2.4 old pennies. This resulted in a price rise of 20%. Incidentally, it was the government's intention that the new penny would be called exactly that ~ a new penny (with the word "new" being dropped when the changeover was complete) ~ not a pee. The unit is a penny, and the plural pence. After all, we didn't call the old penny a dee.
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Imperial is a truly awful system and in technical use I can't wait to see it sink without trace.
Don't forget that millions of people used Imperial units successfully for hundreds (or more) of years. I used Imperial dimensions for a large proportion of my automotive engineering R&D career without any problems. As soon as my employer went metric the number of dimensional inaccuracies in manufactured parts went up. It was found that it was far easier to misread a metric micrometer than an Imperial one.
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"easier to misread a metric micrometer than an Imperial one"
Not just micrometers. A friend of mine bought online what looked like a sizeable painting, quoted as 100 x 120, but what he took to be cm turned out to mm!
I'm fine with either system, but I still like to do carpentry (and measure rooms) in feet and inches, and buy my groceries by the pound. I notice that an awful lot of foodstuffs are still sold in what are effectively the old sizes - 454g, 568ml, etc. and it seems faintly absurd that they can't be labelled as they are, pounds and pints. It's the bureaucratic element that annoys.
I note that birth weights are invariably pounds and ounces, still. A 3kg baby sounds like something you put in the fridge.. :-)
Edited by J Bonington Jagworth on 03/05/2008 at 11:51
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>>As soon as my employer went metric the number of dimensional inaccuracies in manufactured parts went up. It was found that it was far easier to misread a metric micrometer than an Imperial one.
It's fairly inevitable that any change like that will have some teething troubles. I've never found much difficulty in reading either type of micrometer.
In calculation, it's much easier not to use Imperial. Consider this example. In calculating a stress, take the load, in Newtons, and divide by the area in square millimetres (easily obtained, the part drawing will most likely be in mm) - the answer comes out in MPa, which is usually the unit in which allowable stresses for materials are quoted. Note, there are no fiddle factors, the equations just work as they stand. What's the imperial equivalent?
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......... my objection to the euro ..........
If we adopted the Euro and were then attacked by another Euro-using country, that country could gain an advantage by ruining our economy by flooding the UK with genuine Euro notes. At least with us staying with the pound they would have to forge the notes, which would then be detectable.
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But wouldn't that ruin their own economy too, if they used Euros? Or perhaps they would quickly swap back to marks or francs just after printing all the extra euros.
It sounds easier just to send an invading army down the channel tunnel.
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It really infuriates the (mostly Polish) office staff when I order sheet materials in imperial sizes say 8'x4'but the thickness in millemeters which I can understand.Love it.
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"What's the imperial equivalent?"
PSI, I believe, which has the virtue (to me at least) that I can visualise it. Some of our clients are American, and for the sort of tensions we measure (tons) they use kips, short for kilopounds, which seems like a nice compromise...
I like Imperial measurements because they have evolved to be useful for the areas they apply to (e.g. beer in pints, room sizes in feet, fuel in gallons) which is why they don't fit together so neatly. Happily, computers and calculators remove the difficulties in calculation, while the constant ratios in metric units make it all too easy to confuse units by factors of ten. Mistakes in Imperial tend to be more obvious.
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And now back to some motoring dicussion please. DD.
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"now back to some motoring"
Damn - I thought you'd gone to bed, DD!
It won't surprise anyone to know that I always calculate fuel consumption in mpg, but I have also yet to meet anyone who didn't, not even a semi-metric equivalent, like miles per 5 litres...
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The USA does not use Litres it uses gallons
plus ask anyone in the UK about their cars MPG (not MPL) and thesay it in gallons
Litres are for the french arent they ?
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