What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
HJ doubting diesel - Chris M
In HJ's Saturday Telegraph column today he comments to a reader that he is getting so many reports of failed DMFs/clutches, injection pumps, injectors, turbos, intercoolers and EGR valves on diesels that he wonders whether overall running costs may be cheaper for petrol engined cars.

Now I don't agree with HJ on everything he writes but it was EGR valve problems (and mis-fueling concerns) that put me off a diesel C Max last year.

We have heard various stories on here about the problems mentioned by HJ and there are backroomers who wouldn't buy anything other than diesel because they favour the driving experience.

Do you think the writing may be on the wall, at least for private motorists buying out of warranty cars who have to consider overall costs?
HJ doubting diesel - Screwloose

That's what I've been saying for the last five years - wasn't anyone taking any notice.

[And he didn't include the cost implications of DPFs....]
HJ doubting diesel - Dude - {P}


I came to this conclusion some time ago and will never buy another diesel. IMHO the only way a diesel can be justified is by a high mileage user within the warranty period, after that they are far more expensive to maintain, and this is now further compounded by the 10p/litre premium of diesel fuel over petrol.

My next car will be a normally aspirated petrol engine made by Honda, as in my book reliability is way more important than torque!!!!!
HJ doubting diesel - quizman
If diesels are no longer worth buying because of reliability problems, why are 99.9% of lorries, buses, tractors, combines diesel?

My recenly sold Focus TDCI had a DMF failure, but this might have been caused by an incompetent mechanic changing a fuel filter. He didn't prime the filter with fuel, so jump leaded it before towing it for a couple of miles!

My Passat is still OK after 7 years. I have owned it from new and am carefull when filling with diesel. I always double check I'm using the right pump and never let my wife fill up!

I like diesels, I like to be able to go 600 miles on one tank, I like the power when overtaking, I don't like the extra cost of the diesel though, we are being ripped off IMO.
HJ doubting diesel - adverse camber
but a 7 year old passat is PD not CR. CR is looking increasingly frightening
HJ doubting diesel - Number_Cruncher
>>why are 99.9% of lorries, buses, tractors, combines diesel?

You're comparing apples with oranges quizman. Commercial diesel engines, their fuel systems, their electrical systems and the rest of the driveline are built with long duration and heavy duty service in mind. The diesel engine in a motor car can't afford to be built to those standards - if car diesel engines were built using the appropriate materials and design standards/margins, they would be too expensive.

My view is that the diesel performance revolution is still fairly recent, it wasn't that long ago that fairly agricultural indirect injection engines were the norm in cars. When the technology settles down, the reliability will come back. People with a modern diesel car at the moment are effectively taking the risk of being early adopters.

HJ doubting diesel - mattbod
Just picked up a Golf bochure and it states that potentialbuyers should not consider specifying a DPF if they live in the Channel Islands or do only urban driving. How riduculous when particulates are at their most troublesome in urban centres.

I agree with Screwloose when he talks of engneering desperation. Targets are ditated by mechanically illiterate politcians and bureaucrats and thehave to me met or else huge fines. Take the 120g/km average that is the current E.U target. manufacturers are already struggling to meet this and yet Alistair Darling as written to the E.U Transport Commissioner stating that he thinks this is too high and that it should be 100g/km. As a result of these meddlesome and ignorant people, manufacturers are having to resort to increasingly complicated technology to meet these stipualations and consequently when things do go wrong, petrol or diesel, the costs are high.

Finally I love my Diesel but will seriously reconsider buying another. I will either go for a 1.4 TSI, FIAT 150 1.4 Turbo or a Honda 1.8 VTEC, the latter of which is a clean engine and a wonderfully sweet revving ne as well.
HJ doubting diesel - qxman {p}
I wouldn't think for one microsecond that targets are set by politicians. The politicians put their name to certain targets, and agree legislation, but that is a different thing altogether. I bet there is a whole team of people, probably mechanical and combustion engineers at places like TRL etc who advise, produce papers etc. Then there will be whole teams of industry representatives, lobbyists and so forth.
I am also sure that there must be many ways of meeting targets, not all modern diesels have DPF, some companies have managed to meet targets without them.
HJ doubting diesel - mattbod
Just picked up a Golf bochure and it states that potentialbuyers should not consider specifying a DPF if they live in the Channel Islands or do only urban driving. How riduculous when particulates are at their most troublesome in urban centres.

I agree with Screwloose when he talks of engneering desperation. Targets are ditated by mechanically illiterate politicians and bureaucrats and they have to be met or else face huge fines. Take the 120g/km average that is the current E.U target. manufacturers are already struggling to meet this and yet Alistair Darling as written to the E.U Transport Commissioner stating that he thinks this is too high and that it should be 100g/km. As a result of these meddlesome and ignorant people, manufacturers are having to resort to increasingly complicated technology to meet these stipualations and consequently when things do go wrong, petrol or diesel, the costs are high.

Finally I love my Diesel but will seriously reconsider buying another. I will either go for a 1.4 TSI, FIAT 150 1.4 Turbo or a Honda 1.8 VTEC, the latter of which is a clean engine and a wonderfully sweet revving ne as well.
HJ doubting diesel - pendulum
I would not buy a new diesel car because of the potential of huge bills, questionable reliability and the complexity of them. Older diesels are brilliant though.
HJ doubting diesel - stunorthants26
I love the way diesels drive, but dot think I could bear to put my money in a current one. Petrols are also getting quite economical if you choose the right model.
HJ doubting diesel - ifithelps
And in the TDCi corner...

Are we all not on something of a knife edge?

Over in technical there's a thread about petrol Accords that eat some bit or other, so the owner thinks his car's great until it costs him £3/400.

If it never eats that bit, the owner always thinks his car is great.

Don't most modern cars cars - petrol or diesel - have the capability to cost their owners a lot of money?
HJ doubting diesel - David Horn
The implication from this thread is that every new diesel car is likely to catastrophically break down just out of the warranty period. Apart from my Honda, the four other cars owned by people in my family are all diesels, and none* have ever given problems.

Even I can remember when a cold morning had everyone with petrol cars furiously cranking away with no success. Give it another couple of years, but IMHO I'd buy a modern diesel any day.

* The fuel pump failed on a P-reg Range Rover with 130,000 miles on the clock, but given RR reliability I don't think that's too bad.
HJ doubting diesel - AlanGowdy
Petrol cars are definitely improving. Although my current car is a diesel (my second) and I am one of those who likes the way diesels drive, I would certainly consider a petrol engined car next.
As long as it could cruise quietly at motorway speeds, overtake easily without having to drop a gear or two, get to 60 mph in under 10 seconds, return 50 mpg in normal use and never less than 40 mpg regardless of how hard it's driven, then it would earn a place on my list of possibles.
HJ doubting diesel - curious
How many of the common issues associated with CR diesels could be attributed to driver behaviour?

Clutch and dual-mass flywheels - Does driving style have any bearing on these for instance? How do some drivers manage to get colossal mileages and others seem to have problem after problem? Is it pot luck? What causes a clutch and fly-wheel to go in one car and not in an identical one?

Is a diesel car car just a lot more unforgiving than a petrol? A mechanic friend seems to think so. He tells me that a Mondeo Mk III is a fantastic car for a person who is prepared to start it properly, let it run for a while at the end of a journey, use high quality diesel, servicing etc and not ride the clutch. In the wrong hands, he feels they are a money pit.

As an aside, would a late model diesel car have improvements fitted to counteract known issues in earlier models. An 06/07 Mondeo or an 04/05 Passat?
HJ doubting diesel - b308
See the petrolheads are clutchiing at straws again....
HJ doubting diesel - jc2
Get a pre-DMF diesel and drive it into the ground-and that will take you a long,long time.
HJ doubting diesel - Galad
>When the technology settles down, the reliability will come back. People with a modern diesel car at the moment are effectively taking the risk of being early adopters>

Given how much manufacturers are having to shell out for warranty repairs on common rail diesels and the damage the failures are doing to the reputations of legendary brands, it's a wonder that the technology hasn't been sorted out before now. After all I've read in the BR about the reliability modern diesels I'm definitely going back to petrol.
HJ doubting diesel - qxman {p}
A few of the guys I work with run diesel cars. My office colleague owns a 2005 Ford which has been an absolute nightmare, with continual trips to the dealer to attempt repairs which never seem 100% successful.
Another colleague has a Renault Laguna which has also had no end of problems. A secretary had a newish Puegeot HDI (small one, can't remember model number) which had continual problems with bad starting and running and she ended up selling it at a massive loss because the dealer couldn't fix it. She virtually gave it away (she was ill with cancer at the time and didn't have the 'strength' to deal with it).
The only person who's had very little trouble is a guy who does a long daily commute in a VW Passat diesel. He's had some minor probs (radiator, alternator, door locks) but the engine keeps going. I think he's done nearly 200k in it.
The common theme that strikes me from hearing about colleagues' experiences is that when people have trouble with diesels they never seem to get fixed 'right first time' and when they are out of warranty the repairs seem to be absolutely extortionate.
Of course people have problems with petrol cars too, but they seem to be a lot cheaper and easier to fix.
HJ doubting diesel - madf
Anyone buying a Renault with their recent history and expecting 100% reliability is sadly deluded.
HJ doubting diesel - Galad
>a 2005 Ford which has been an absolute nightmare, with continual trips to the dealer to attempt repairs which never seem 100% successful>

Is part of the problem due to dealer mechanics not knowing how to fix them, meanwhile those that do are either poached by other dealers or see a golden opportunity and set up on their own as diesel specialists?
HJ doubting diesel - Screwloose
Is part of the problem due to dealer mechanics not knowing how to fix them
meanwhile those that do are either poached by other dealers or see a golden opportunity
and set up on their own as diesel specialists?


That's the most common cause of the "constant nightmare" scenarios that a few suffer. Yes; it's only a few - maybe 5% - but hundreds of times more likely [and costly] than equivalent petrol owners.

The crux of reliability and low repair costs is well-tried, well-built, simplicity. Petrol technology has matured, settled and there have been no real changes in the past 10-15 years.

Diesels have become ludicrously complex in a Heath Robinson-like attempt to meet ever-tighter emission and NVH levels. The methods employed smack of sheer engineering desperation. [How can you sell a car that cannot be used in an all-urban context?]

Add in the appalling [by old diesel standards] fuel consumption figures of the latest cars; the cost of servicing the emission equipment and the growing price differential between the fuels and it just doesn't add up anymore.
HJ doubting diesel - b308
Add in the appalling [by old diesel standards] fuel consumption figures of the latest cars;
the cost of servicing the emission equipment and the growing price differential between the fuels
and it just doesn't add up anymore.


Eh? Mine have become better the newer they are... the old idi enegines were not very good - I remember the introduction of the Perkins Di engine in the Montego/Maestro, it made the PSA/Vauxhall/VAG idi engines look extremely thirsty.... but quieter!
HJ doubting diesel - Screwloose
b308

It's the emission-strangled latest stuff that I was thinking of. Yes, they did get more efficient for a while, particularly that raucous 70 mpg Maestro unit, but that improvement has now gone negative and we're often now down in the '30s.

All I seem to get some days are brand-new lease cars in for "it's using too much fuel." [What am I supposed to do about it? They wanted "green" - they got it!]
HJ doubting diesel - b308
It's the emission-strangled latest stuff that I was thinking of. Yes they did get more
efficient for a while particularly that raucous 70 mpg Maestro unit but that improvement has
now gone negative and we're often now down in the '30s.


I have been lucky I suppose - my current car is band b but without those little add-ons they have these days on the larger cars which seem to strangle the fuel consumption.... Petrol cars have suffered the same issues though - the old A series in its last incarnation in the Maestro/Metro was a really good little engine - I used to get 50 mpg out of it no probs... the 1.4 which replaced it wasn't so good though...

With regard to the gruff noise mentioned in a later post - I quite like it - if I wanted a silent car I'd go electric, so the diesel noise doesn't bother me at all...
HJ doubting diesel - Martin Devon
Is part of the problem due to dealer mechanics not knowing how to fix them
meanwhile those that do are either poached by other dealers or see a golden opportunity
and set up on their own as diesel specialists?

They are not Mechanics, they are Fitters. Mechanics have ears and brains and are adaptable. Fitters are not fit.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.................MD
HJ doubting diesel - Manatee
It would be strange if driving style wasn't related to DMF or clutch failures. Modern turbo diesels will produce maximum torque or close to it almost throughout the rev range. Anyone who is in the habit of flooring the accelerator to get up to speed, even if they are changing up early, is hammering the drive train. If the clutch/DMF/gearbox are not beefy enough, failures are likely to result.
HJ doubting diesel - Pendlebury
The only bit he forgot to mention was that they are filthy dirty and smelly too.
(The blue touch paper has been lit - stand back)

On a serious note I wonder how much real world driving benefit a diesel gives.
People often refer to the fact they enjoy the torque - this may be relevant for the odd overtaking move but in reality a good petrol can overtake just as easily.
Even then I have family members with Audi and BMW diesels and when we travel on a family day out on a twisting A road - the petrol Accord follows just as easily - they do comment they thought diesels were supposed to be better at overtaking.
The TG test between a 530d and 530 actually demonstrated that there is in fact very little in it.
You get a sudden burst of torque in a diesel but that is a heavy price to pay for normal day to day refinement you get with a good petrol.
I really don't know how anyone can put up with a gruff diesel on a day to day basis.
I think I might invest in a diesel repair garage though - there have been a number of threads on here about people escaping the 2.0l VED penalty and are looking at diesels - there will be some money to make now Darling is forcing everyone to buy diesels.

Edited by Pendlebury on 19/04/2008 at 19:13

HJ doubting diesel - Avant
It would be nice to think that when the time comes to replace my 50 mpg Golf 2.0TDI, there will be some more fuel-efficient petrol engines to choose from. SWMBO's new Mini Cooper is about 5 mpg better than her old Mini One, so that's a good sign.

Anyone with experience of the new common-rail VAG 2.0 diesel engine? I wonder if it's likely to use more fuel than the PD that my car has.
HJ doubting diesel - Greg R
There is no doubt cars are becoming too complex. I wonder if anyone knows of a website where you can see how/ instructions showing a common rail diesel being rebuilt or where it explains the procedure for changing the fuel pump. This would be interesting to compare to old technology diesels.
HJ doubting diesel - nick74
In terms of changing things like fuel pumps, common rail diesels appear to be simpler to work on than older tech diesels. I don't think its complexity in terms of how difficult it is to replace major components, its knowing which bits to replace that's the problem. Many main dealers are hopeless at fault diagnosis, and CR diesels just seem to be too complicated for them!

Edited by nick74 on 29/04/2008 at 11:56

HJ doubting diesel - barney100
I don't know about the newer diesels but I am happy with my 2000 2.2 Merc unit. It gives excellent mpg, has notched up 135k and cruises at 70 ish all day. I have had many petrol cars and i can't say they were cheaper to maintain than this diesel. We need a few back roomers with cars of all makes and fuels to give a regular update of reliability and bills to try to make some sense of this.
So far this year I have had to replace brakes all round @ £420, Mot passed and a service is due which should be about £200but non of this is diesel related.
HJ doubting diesel - bbroomlea{P}
My Audi A4 has done 142,000 trouble free miles now and before that my Rover 75 CDT did 225,000 miles before fuel pump problems made me get rid of it. Would I buy a common-rail? I dont think I will, nor will I get the 2.0 PD engine as the fuel economy is 10mpg less that what I get now due to particulate filters - what a stupid idea by the EU - reducing fuel consumption when everyone you listen to is harping on about economy and how much damage we are doing to the environment.

Currently diesel shopping to replace our Rover 200 and after some lengthy trips around dealers we are going to get a late MG ZR as it has a proven reliable diesel engine, that ok isnt that refined but will travel to the moon and back probably several times and has no inherint problems. A 207/Fiesta etc is probably a better car but as this is a long term purchase, I dont think its worth the risk.
HJ doubting diesel - Alby Back
I dont think its worth the risk.



OK understood, but as I have questioned on my similar thread, what exactly is the risk? 1%, 50%, 80% ??? All we know for sure is that some people have had problems and some of them have mentioned them publicly. Based on my own experience I would have no hesitation at all in buying another CR diesel. Ford TDCis in particular. Best cars I have ever had for reliability. We need the numbers.

Edited by shoespy on 29/04/2008 at 12:50

HJ doubting diesel - Sulphur Man
Interesting thread...the overriding message is that whilst manufacturers have developed diesels to compare with petrol performance and refinement, reliability has suffered as a result. Some engines have definitely performed worse than others. The PSA 2.2dCI of the Laguna, X-Trail and others seems to be particularly troublesome.

Interestingly, the best pre-CR diesels, such as the Merc E606 3-litre diesel (normally aspirated), command premium used prices if in good condition. A good E-class diesel estate can get £6K on the private market, even with 170K on the clock. It's only 134bhp but will trundle on forever, and give around 35mpg.
HJ doubting diesel - Number_Cruncher
such as the Merc E606 3-litre diesel


Yes, they are quite popular. I'm biased though!

However, there is an emerging problem with them that tends to go un-noticed, and mainly unrepaired. The inlet valves and inlet valve seats are subject to recession. For a long time, this is tolerated by the adjustment provided by the hydraulic tappets. However, once the wear progresses further than can be accomodated by the hydraulic follower, compression loss follows. This produces poor cold starting, and rough running once the after-glow cycle ends.

I say that the problem is emerging because it's only now that these engines have been running for 10 years or so that the wear has progressed to the stage where the travel in the hydraulic tappets has been used up.

Most aren't aware of the problem, and blame it on fuel leaks - the low pressure fuel pipework on these engines does frequently leak. Those who do go on to either carry out compression tests, or to run the engines without the inlet manifold in place will often find this problem. Only a few of those who find the problem will bite the bullet, and go on to have the head off to fix the problem properly.

So, if you are looking at an OM606 powered MB, I would definitely make sure you listen to it start from cold, and make sure it runs smoothly all the time - in the UK climate, there should be no period of rough running at all.

HJ doubting diesel - nick74
The PSA 2.2dCI of the Laguna X-Trail and others seems to be particularly
troublesome.


I may be wrong, but I thought the Laguna had a Renault engine, the 2.2 X Trail was a Nissan engine, and neither had any connection with PSA?!
HJ doubting diesel - b308
reliability has suffered as a result.


Just a minor pont, but where are the stats to prove this?

As a %ge of the total number of diesel engined cars is the failure rate as bad as people on forums say it is, or are we talking a few disgruntled drivers and some others with an axe to grind?

As has been said before the people who tend to do the highest mileages, taxi/mincab drivers, tend to use diesels, and I've seen all sorts used for this trade... that doesn't corralate with the above!
HJ doubting diesel - Sulphur Man
>> reliability has suffered as a result.
Just a minor pont but where are the stats to prove this?
As a %ge of the total number of diesel engined cars is the failure rate
as bad as people on forums say it is or are we talking a few
disgruntled drivers and some others with an axe to grind?
As has been said before the people who tend to do the highest mileages taxi/mincab
drivers tend to use diesels and I've seen all sorts used for this trade... that
doesn't corralate with the above!


Yeah, as with every corroborated fault in recent times, actual quantified failure rates are hard to come by. No one could argue that the Austin Allegro wasn't a spectacularly unreliable car with many, many inherent faults but it's all words, not figures.

HJ withdrew his recommendation for the X-Trail mk1 diesel, due to the high amount of customer woe messages he received.

It's not unreasonable to say that the long-held 'longevity' quality of a diesel-powered car over an equivalent petrol is no longer the case.
HJ doubting diesel - prm72
SNIPQUOTE!
In reply to bbroomlea:-


I thought the rover had a bmw cr diesel engine?

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 29/04/2008 at 13:49

HJ doubting diesel - Chris M
It's common knowledge that all CR diesels fail in the same way that all Vauxhall Ecotecs do.

My original point, and the point HJ was making, was when CR diesels fail, they can be very expensive to fix whereas petrols generally aren't.
HJ doubting diesel - rogue-trooper
For what its worth, I have an 8 year old BMW 530d Touring with only 85k miles on. I have had to change a MAF and apart from a vacuum hose and the wastegate getting stuck open I have had no problems from that perspective. I have had a wiring harness loom that rubbed itself against (presumably) the bulkhead and this shorted out my injectors. Can't really be applied to the Diesel Problem. The only other big cost I have had is to the rear air suspension.

My wife has a 3 year old diesel Grandis with the 2,0 VAG PD. That has caused zero problems so far on the engine front but its noisy.

Edited by Webmaster on 30/04/2008 at 02:08

HJ doubting diesel - DP
I have a 52,000 mile Grand Scenic, for which I have the complete service history, both in terms of invoices and checksheets, and the printout from the Renault UK computer which my dealer kindly supplied me with.

As I bought the car while still under warranty, it makes no sense for it not to have gone through the dealer network for all repairs.

I can confirm in 52,000 miles, the engine has had (outside of routine servicing).....

2 glow plugs.

The car itself has a had a couple of things go wrong with it, but none of it relates to the mechanics of the car in any way which continue to start on the button and whisk the car about with refinement, perkiness and economy.

I hope it continues! Of course what the story will be like at 104,000 miles is anyone's guess.

Cheers
DP
HJ doubting diesel - bbroomlea{P}
>>I thought the rover had a bmw cr diesel engine?

Yer the 75 did and a £1000 bill for yet another set of high pressure pumps, I had to call it a day and traded it in. It did have 225K on the engine but if I had paid to have the pumps replaced it would have been on the third lot so averaging just over 100K each. From my research and speaking to a mate who works for Ford, common rail reliability is nowhere near previous generation diesels. When its time to renew my Audi, I will probably go back to petrol

The ZR we are getting has the old L series Rover engine which was a development of the old perkins engine I believe - quieter (actually debatable), not as smokey and buckets of torque.
HJ doubting diesel - qxman {p}
Its things like this (low mileage car) that make me nervous:

tiny.cc/6HET4

Stumbled across this whilst looking to reply to another thread on Pandas, but it seems relevant to this thread.
HJ doubting diesel - oilrag
Its pretty much a one off I think with the Multijet. Same poster seems to have had problems with the gearbox too.
HJ doubting diesel - qxman {p}
Panda gearboxes seem a bit dodgy (see the thread 'gearbox Panda 100hp').

Its all very well saying the problem is 'a one off', but how many 'one offs' are there? Very difficult to answer, I know, but I don't think things should be dismissed in such a way. After all, how many car owners post their problems on the web, its a very very tiny percentage I think.
HJ doubting diesel - mattbod
Agree with Screwloose about desperate engineering. Picked up a Golf brochure which stated that specifying a car with DPF is not advised for those doing urban runs and Channel islanders. Crazy when particulates are more of a problem in urban areas.So if you live in London or Jersey and fancy a 170 TDI forget it

The problem is that these targets are foisted on the manufacturers on pain of large fines by those who don't know a thing about engineering. Take Darling saying he wants the new average to be 100g/km rather than 120 which itself is already causing manufacturers problems. Anyone involved in legislating for vehicles shouls have a engineering background in my opinion.

Edited by Mattbod on 29/04/2008 at 17:40

HJ doubting diesel - oilrag
"but I don't think things should be dismissed in such a way"

qxman, Not intending to be dismissive and i`m sorry if it came over like that.
But of all the woes over on the Fiat Forum there is little on failure of the Multijets injection system. (That`s what I should have written)

I`m ready to switch to one of those 2 cylinder petrol jobs having said that...maybe.. ;)

Regards

HJ doubting diesel - madf
Given Fiat's long histroy of dubious cars, I decided not to buy any new Fiat until the new ranges were tested in at least 5 years' hard usage.

I see my scepticism is justified.
HJ doubting diesel - oilrag
The Fiat Uno is still on sale in Brazil.... on second thoughts maybe not ;)

Regards;)
HJ doubting diesel - taxidad
I'm on my 3rd Company car diesel Zafira, the first was great, it drank a litre of oil every 1k which kept the oil fresh. The second had a service interval of 20k & did not burn oil at all but engine siezed solid at 15k (while wife was taking kids on holiday - was i in trouble) the oil was tar, a second block & two turbos later I started to change the oil myself at 6k intervals ( the dealer wouldn't as the lease company would not authorise it as the service interval was not reached) & had 50K untroubled miles.
Now my third has got to 6k in three monthes and has had the EGR fail (the dealer cleaned it & replaced it as there are none available anywhere & many cars awaiting them nuff said)
Car started to drink lub & now having had a turbo change due to seals going, it is currnetly awaiting a new engine. 2 weeks so far & counting again there are no engines available perhaps the shortage of spare engines & parts indicates the no that are failing.
Despite the above The vectra i am temporarily in is a diesel auto 1.9cdti runs great, the oil is as clean as you like & returns 45+mpg on a run.

apart from the engine hassle the zafira is a great car to use. & I would buy one if I could be sure the engine was reliable.