It seems the Union can call a two day strike which can shut production for a month.
What an `industrial lever`, I wonder what Margaret Thatcher would have done about that?
Writing as I am, from the husk of the Yorkshire Mining communities, there is a certain interest...
An official states "Don`t panic buy fuel".. That`s OK then.
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 19/04/2008 at 19:02
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FB, was up your way today, the missus was taking a test drive in a Beetle from one of your local garages. Went up onto M9 expecting to come off at next junction but next junction was for the Kincardine Bridge and managed to do a "u" turn at those roadworks before you get to the bridge!
Turned out to be a much longer test drive than planned!
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I'm allright. Despite HJ's comments, driving a diesel has advantages.:-)
Anyway who cares? It's just the Scots who'll go without. They want independence. they'll get it. Bolshie lot.
Any suggestion I was brought up in Scotland is to be kept secret:-)
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I notice that Ineos are claiming poverty, denying the alleged profitability of the site and insisting that they need to invest £750m. Didn't they do something similar when they bought the old ICI Runcorn chlorine plant?
JH
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Won't just affect the north! Expect higher fuel prices everyone if this strike goes ahead.
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You're right there. look out for a standard supermarket litre costing £1.20, if you can get it!
This is not glom & doom, it's reality and petro business.
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People should not panic, it is just an excuse to put the price up.
I'm going to fill the cars up now!
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Just gone past my local shell and it was packed, cars queuing down the road.
I blame the BBC, for telling everyone not to panic buy, doh!
CBG
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Just gone past my local shell and it was packed cars queuing down the road. I blame the BBC for telling everyone not to panic buy doh! CBG
From reading your location CBG, Fawley would be just down the road from you, unless they're having a strike too?!!
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Frazer
Fawley is 3 miles as the crow flies, didnt make any difference during the 2000 fuel 'protest' though, we ran out just like everyone else.
CBG
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It'll probably all blow over.....................panic bought last night just in case mind ;-)
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People will panic buy because of the experience of Government mismanagement of every crisis in recent memory. The coded message "Don't Panic" from HMG is "stock up now !"
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I knew a Consultant, well versed in `risk assessment` who nevertheless sat at home with an empty fuel tank in 2000. He subsequently had to get a bus to work while his `inferiors` all filled their tanks and drove past him at the bus stop.
A few pigeons coming home to roost there perhaps, but on a purely personal basis it would surely be detrimental not to maintain a full fuel tank from now on, even if its only for peace of mind?
As soon as `The Authorities` tell you not to panic buy...... Its everyone for themselves I would imagine.
I filled up last night ( busy at Shell garage ) and will maintain that to be sure I can get as for as Dover and then France In mid May.
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no doubt we will get the coppers on "light duties" and nurses who "manage" out filling up every car for their extended families when the "emergency services only" ruling comes out like it did the last time
showed the worst side of every man for himself, and the very worst side of boys and girls in blue and some of their nursing collegues tbh
this country really is down the tubes
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Quick! Everyone panic buy. I've got 16 milk bottles, the car, and the bath full of BP Ultimate, so I'm safe.
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Quick! Everyone panic buy. I've got 16 milk bottles the car and the bath full of BP Ultimate so I'm safe.
The bath, that's a good idea, I've been using supermarket carrier bags held open by coathangers.
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Is "There is no need to Panic Buy" the most counter-productive sentence in any language....?
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no - a much shorter one is
"Wet Paint"
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A more apposite one is " Trust me. I'm a politician"
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How many 4 gallon cans of petrol am I allowed to store in my garden shed ?
this is a genuine question
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oldlag
None. 10ltrs max - in an approved can.
Diesel is a different matter.
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Just to ensure I panic buy, out of interest how much diesel can a domestic person store...
My Fabia Sdi does 60 mpg and not much else, but with diesel @ £1.20 a litre who cares.
Thanks in advance
Richardo
Edited by Pugugly on 21/04/2008 at 23:26
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Richardo
I've a feeling it's something like 5,000 litres; but the bunding requirements may vary if you're near a watercourse.
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I fear panic buying will happen from poor reporting. They say Grangemouth supplies the north of England but what about the refineries in the NE (Cleveland) and NW (Elsemere Port)?
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I was out tonight - just a few miles -1 x petrol station empty - no cars and no petrol/diesel Diesel normally £1.16-17 /litre
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1 x BP station with 1 customer on the forecourt - the price signs said Diesel £1.20 / litre - when I passed earlier in the day it was £1.18
I can hear the Ineos site all day and night currently - must be the shutting down process - normall I hear and see very little in the night sky as the flares roar.
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the bath full of BP Ultimate so I'm safe.
A bath full of petrol - Mmm, thats a new definition of "safe"!!
Wasn't there some guy last time round who stored so much petrol in unsuitable containers that they had to get the Fire Brigade in to remove it all safely?
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Two petrol stations in my area (Hants) have been out of diesel since yesterday morning. Coincidence? Not sure.
Haven't seen any queues though, and filling up with Unleaded yesterday was completely hassle free.
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Hampshire Diesel will be Esso Fawley whether you buy Esso/Shell/BP or whatever.
Maybe the garage did not pay their bill! More likely than a Scottish Plant on Strike. IMHO
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I understand the primary cause of the mooted strike is that company pensions won't be available for new employees & that some current pension provision will be 'adjusted'.
Well, welcome to the real world Unite! And I used to be quite pro-union.
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the potential for this strike has been on the cards for a year. When the place was taken over a year or so ago the employees were put on notice that the final salary pension scheme would end in a year's time. Well that year is up, companies just can't afford expensive pensions these days, not when they've vast profits to maintain.
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Yes & no. I listened on R4 about this. the current owners of the refinery after buying it 5 years ago (I think), now want to turn in a profit (or more), so are dragging the workers kicking & screaming into the real (private) world.
Another thing is that the price of Brent crude went up, because of some dealers getting the willies over the 'shutdown'. Some might say any excuse to make another couple of million. The sound of that £1.20 a litre is getting closer faster then I thought. Usual increasing discrepancy between diesel & petrol. Now 9p at the local mainstream Shell forecourt.
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I went out with a can and panic bought enough petrol to last for more than a year this morning.
That`s 4 litres for the two stroke flymo. I followed alleged government advice too and left it until there were only two tablespoons full left in the fuel tank.
I had an accusing look from a little bloke in a big Luxo-barge who then proceeded to suck so much fuel onboard that the earth tilted slightly off its axis.
Must remember ( now I`m retired) not to mix it on the forecourts in the rush hour looking too relaxed. Ever noticed what a problem it can cause in society of you`re caught smiling slightly?
Regards ;)
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Well welcome to the real world Unite! And I used to be quite pro-union.
So when are government workers and MPs going to join the "real world" then?
Whilst I don't disagree with you, Unions will always try to protect their members as thats what they are paid to do, and whilst our "public service" workers continue to take the Michael and provide such a good example of money-grabbing, I can't say I blame them!
BTW GS the refinery has always been private as far as I'm aware - a friend of mine used to work there many years ago when it was owned by BP.
Edited by b308 on 22/04/2008 at 15:37
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Currently the Ex-BP employees at Ineos Refinery have a non-contributory Pension Fund - relic of BP ownership. This is Standard within many oil companies - (my son has 25% of his esalary paid to a Pension by his Oil Co (non UK based Employer)
Ineos want to water this down for new employees to the employee contributing 6% and the employer less than the current 25% and into a poorer set of conditions.
If we say the average salary there is £40K (lots of Shift Workers) - 6% = £2,400 x 1200 = £29m / yr
This sounds a lot until it will be 25 years until all the "old scheme" retire and the new ones are in their place in the 1st few years savings to Ineos will be trivial
£30m will not cover their losses for the dispute in a day or 2. It will take them 30 days or more to re-start and make sure all processes work. In the past it has taken months to get some plants to work after a planned maintenance shut-down - a forced shut-down soundsmega expensive.
Seems madness on both sides - everybody loses - Employee, Employer & Joe Public
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Is there a critical point before which the refinery can pull back to normal operations relatively easily? Or is it past that?
I thought initially it was all about `levering` and `muscle flexing` on both sides, a sort of stand off.
Edited by oilrag on 22/04/2008 at 15:58
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The only "INDUSTRY" that seems to pay better Pensions than the Oil Industry are "the Houses of Parliament" - Full Pension after 20 years sitting on leather chairs.
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A certain Brown and Darling will be rubbing their hands with glee...
I filled up on Sunday at Tesco (had to anyway and offspring had given me a 5p a litre off voucher, a useful saving wiht 95 RON at 108.9p a litre).
The person before me had put in £79 worth of fuel and I followed up with £54 and a few pence - makes you wonder just how much a service station takes in a day whilst, at the same time, collecting massive levels of tax for the Treasury without any recompense.
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>Two petrol stations in my area (Hants) have been out of diesel since yesterday morning. Coincidence? Not sure.
I filled up at a petrol station in full view of Fawley today and there was plenty of diesel.
Edited by PoloGirl on 22/04/2008 at 22:21
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my heart bleeds for these poor folk only getting 25% of salary paid by employer into their pension scheme
is there anywhere else in the real world that does anything remotely like this ?
also ref a possible shortage -lets have a real shortage with rationing coupons sent to every car owner like in the 1973 crissi when the price of oil doubled overnight, then some of these petrol heads who want to do 165mph on the M4 and F everyone else will actually realise the stuff is in the decline just as demand goes up 10fold.
feel better for saying that
PS I can manage without a car so i am OK
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Blackfield, Pologirl?
CBG
Edited by corblimeyguvnar{P} on 26/04/2008 at 09:28
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I sit corrected.
Should have nipped across the river and come for a cuppa :-)
CBG
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The pipeline bringing 33% of UK's crude oil into the country is closed, a major refinery is shut, and we are told not to panic, by this bunch of useless twits who 'run' the country? No wonder people are buying it up!
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>>by this bunch of useless twits who 'run' the country?>>
Don't forget that this is something that has come back to haunt Gordon Brown.
When New Labour gained power in 1997 the economy was in very good shape (GB, of course, never admits this publically); in the first two years he made few changes, but one of them was to "windfall" tax pension funds to the tune of £5bn annually and has done so each successive year.
That led to one of the world's most admired pension schemes being considerably downgraded and people having to put up to 20 per cent more into a pension fund just to be able to stand still.
In subsequent years, many companies and businesses have stopped new employees joining final pension schemes because of the enormous cost involved.
As you've no doubt come to learn, the refinery strike has come about because Ineos has taken a similar step and the employees and unions haven't been able to make them reverse the decision.
Frankly I don't blame Ineos or, indeed, the employees - I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the former Chancellor who, as PM is now reaping the very considerable discomfort of his decision 10 or more years ago.
Edited by Stuartli on 26/04/2008 at 22:38
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have i understood the issues correctly?
newish owners want to limit their current and future pension fund liabilities by changing the final salary scheme to that that most other people have nowadays (except public sector employees).. but the changes will only be relevant to people who join the company after August of this year
so current employees and anyone who signs on the dotted line in the next 4 months will still have the old scheme
what's the problem? why are the workforce striking for future employees rights? surely things change and evolve and you have to go with what's right now. Most other private employers have done exactly the same, so it's not like the refinery owners are going out on a limb.
have I missed something? I appreciate if you've got a boy of 14 that you'd quite like to follow you into your industry you'd like him to have a good employment package..but surely the whole country isn't being held to ransome for that reason.. and in any case, the lad might 'drop out', or even 'better himself', so he might not end up there anyway
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In t'old days this may have been viewed as industrial sabotage.
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Holding the country, or is it just Scotland?, to ransom to get their demands met.
ALL UK companies have closed their final salary schemes to NEW members as far as I am aware. Has anyone else gone on strike? Not that I can remember.
Edited by Marc on 26/04/2008 at 23:05
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Its also to do with the fact that they are currently on a non contributing pension, and Ineos want to stop that.
Marc, my company (another oilcompany) still has final salary pension open to new employees
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Non contributing AND final salary - how the other half live!
"my company (another oilcompany) still has final salary pension open to new employees"
Apologies - as far as I was aware final salary schemes were a thing of the past, most companies seem to have switched to money purchase.
Edited by Marc on 26/04/2008 at 23:41
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>Should have nipped across the river and come for a cuppa :-)
Next time maybe, although I don't often go further than Hamble!
(And, showing my ignorance, I only recently realised that it's a river, and not the sea!)
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River, sea, all the same thing really, it's wet and you cant drive on it.
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I have always been vaguely under the impression that north sea oil isn't that suitable for making petrol and most is exported at a higher price than the imported arabian crude generally used for petroleum refining purposes so the closure of the forties pipeline should not really effect uk petrol supplies altho' the gas side is of course a different matter - or have I got that completely wrong? Will await to hear from the experts!
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Yes: Pleiades
You are wrong.
N Sea oil is light crude - easy to refine.
Much of Saudi crude is heavy with high sulfur: more expensive to refine.
BUT: N Sea oil is expensive to find and produce: $15 + per barrel
Saudi is dirt cheap $2-4...
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Thank you madf for putting me straight as to quality (had in mind it was unsuitable because it was too good) but in that case how much percentage of n sea oil is used in uk refineries generally?
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Design of Grangemouth was donkeys yewars ago and designed for heavier crude tahn Nth sea so it mixes Middle East Crude + Nth Sea in its processing.
The refinery is only one corner of the site - the major part of the site is plastics, polythene etc etc
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Reading about the owner in one of the papers today - he bought out the BP Chemical interests
including the plastics/polythene site....interesting if reclusive private owner.
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With the fuel rising in price at the pumps almost daily since this dispute was muted, does ANYONE think, the prices will drop when the pipelines are back open?
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"Reading about the owner"
Wonder what his pension scheme is like..?
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